Grey Motor info

[Hewart]

G'day guys...
We recieved this email at the Southern Sydney Early Holden Car Club, and I was unable to help with an answer.... I was hoping someone here might be able to help. The email reads:

"Can anyone help how would I identify a canadian grey motor? I have a grey holden motor in a wooden clinker speed boat. It has one of the rare repco cross flow heads on it, and used to have hightop pistons, loves to use avgas but I'm not able to legally purchase it anymore. I have recently purchased a fully marinised grey holden motor that has GMH in a horse shoe on both the block and the head, could this be canadian? I would like to power up another motor for weekend use and save the motor my father developed in the late 50's early 60's for special use. Hoping someone can steer me in the right direction. Regards Bernard."

Anyone know...??
Cheers
Les...

[RET]

The man who is probably the closest thing to a Guru on this topic would be Don Loffler.  In his "She's A Beauty" he discusses the so-called Canadian Block.  The long and the short of it is that he doesn't find any of the stories about how GM-H came to have Canadian blocks credible.  I don't recall all the details, but I'll have a look in the book over the weekend if I get a chance.

cheers
RET

[4hammers]

Hi.
I am sure the Canadian blocks didn't have the extra webbing along the side of the block, as it was a thicker cast & didn't require it.
The early FX's had the GMH cast block & head. I reckon that would be one of those, as in the early 60's, stacks of the "Canadian" blocks were used, aabused then ultimately destroyed.
Could you see if this fella who has the boat could give me some more info on it, Les?? I have started a small site to try & share info on performance Grey stuff & would love to hear from him & maybe get a few photos of the boat. I know a fella who has just bought another VERY rare racing boat, that used to run a "Waggot Twin Cam Head".
Regards,
Rob J

[Wayne]

If you are going to the ahd next weekend Don Loffer will be attending the day you may be able to ask him the question then
WAYNE

[weedy-burton]

Hey Rob,

Is the site up and running yet,if so whats the address I'd love to have a look.

cheers

Weedy

[FE_225]

Hi Guys
There was suppose to be about 150 Canadian blocks cast with Scottish made forged cranks, fitted to the first 48-215's. The blocks were thicker around the bores which allowed them to be bored out  to 3 1/4" +40 thou.  
Getting the engine number would be a help. From that we could work out where it came from, assuming it hasn't been altered.
An old timer in the speedway scene also told me they had smaller expansion plugs behind the sideplate than what the Aussie cast greys did. How true that is, I'm not sure......
Hope this helps a bit
Cheers
Tony

[4hammers]

Hi Weedy.
Here is the link to the site. I checked with RET & he is cool if I put it up for people to find.

http://groups.msn.com/StorminNormans-NormanSuperchargerGroup-/_whatsnew.msnw

There isn't heaps there yet, but as we speak, a mate of mine who has some SERIOUS goodies is sending me some photos of his stuff & a few archive shots.
Tony C has also added some very cool pics.
Rob J

[customFC]

Hey Gang.
I was informed many years ago that the Canadian blocks had a maple leaf cast into the block in place of the 'GMH'.
Regards
Alex

[bernard casey]

  Hi im the 1 who posted the question on canadian grey holden motors. the serial no. of my recent purchase 128350.i also heard that the stroke was also changed during the time period of the grey ,would that be so ?.Some stats on the motor i'm currently using. bore 3,1/16  compression 10:1 Repco Research (1960)cam I.O 50o, I.C 80o; E.O 80o, E.C 50o (similar to waggot's spec) 47.5 deg before TDC full centrifugal advance.In developing the motor as a dry sump i remember my fathers pain in blowing rotor gears.He soon learn't were to tap the block and spray oil on the gear.He tapped into the end of the cam shaft to drive an aircraft fuel pump as a scavanger pump.The cooling system runs on recycle with a heat exchanger.carby's are 2xdual 32 / 36 D/D webbers.Head repco crossflow with tuned extractors .It has a note like nothing else I've heard and idles lumpier than grandmar's porridge. If someone could tell me how i would love to post a couple of pics up here for you to have a squiz at.

[4hammers]

Hi Bernard.
Yep, it is an early FJ block. They started at engine number 121694 up to 283383, then after that, the engine number was prefixed with "U" (ie. U283384). The "Canadian blocks were only released in the 48-215's (I am 99.9% sure of this, but will stand corrected if someone can prove otherwise).
Your block is over 7000 units into the FJ range.
It is still worth $$ though, as not a great deal of them had the GMH cast into the block & head. An FJ restorer would love it!!
Hope this helps.
I am sorry, but I can't advise on how to post pictures on this site. Someone is sure to help though.
Regards,
Rob J

[nicko]

canadian blocks were easily identifiable from memory they had two welsh plugs down side of block not 3 as the other blocks do and also they were 132 only not 138 but thicker as we could bore them to about 140 or 142 ci (too long ago to remember exact size )also the bearings on 132 canadian blocks were wider which helped stop a bit of the flexing,so when used with bridged crank support were very tough and long lasting in speedway cars

[RET]

All grey motors until the FB were 132.5 ci.  Bore was increased with that model from 3" to 3 1/16".

RET

[bernard casey]

 8)Thanks for the info re.canadian grey? with a further look the motor has 3 very small welsh plugs on starter side,less pronounced ribbing on the side of the block compared with the boats current motor .Seemslike the serial numbers indicate it to be early fj .can any one tell me if the stroke was changed  between models.? thanks .regards BC

[RET]

I've only got a 48-FC parts book to hand, but it only lists one crankshaft (part number 7410677) for all models.  Additionally, both the FE and EJ Workshop Manuals give the nominal stroke as 3 1/8".  So I think the answer to your question is "no".

cheers
RET

[RET]

I had an opportunity to talk to Don Loffler about this question the other day, and can add the following, "from the horse's mouth".  There is no such thing as a Canadian Block, in the sense that no grey motors were ever made in Canada.  The prototype 48-215s had motors that were manufactured in Detroit (with the rest of the car).  All 48s built by Holden had motors manufactured by Holden.  Whilst it is true that there are greys with 2 welsh plugs and some with 3, this was a change made to the Australian built greys, and has no significance except in dating the age of the motor.

He did also give me some further information and tantalising theories about the so-called "Canadian Block", but until he does some more research to prove or disprove those theories I'm not really at liberty to publish here.

Hope that's some help, tho.

cheers
RET

[mcl1959]

This is a very interesting subject that has been around for years.  I have spoke to Barry Black in the FX/FJ club who is a specialist in FX/FJ history (he supplies info to Don Loffler).
He is of the same opinion that the Canadian block is mythical and that confusion reigns because GMH changed the casting moulds during the early years as production techniques improved and cost efficiency became important.
He also said that FX blocks are quite rare and look different to FJ and later blocks and because of this, when people see one they think it may be a Canadian block.
Barry has a collection of FX and FJ data which is at least double the size of my collection and he is quite sure he has never seen an engine which was of Canadian origin - all have been built in Australia.

Ken

[4hammers]

Hi all.
I too have heard all the stories about the "Canadian" blocks, but have never seen any hard proof they were made. After talking to many racers & older enthusiests, no one can give me an exact description of the "Mythical Motor". One guy did shed a bit of light on the term "Canadian", as he was sure they were built by Chevrolet "Maple Leaf" division (Maple Leaf = Canadian??). These are the early 40's cars. I have a copy of an old Chevrolet Maple Leaf book & it has a breakdown of what looks remarkably like a big Holden Grey motor. But, it is NOT. Just very similar in design.
I have one of the very early FX blocks & have had some people offer me very good money, as they reckon it is one of the fabled "Canadian" blocks. But, it is just an FX block with GMH cast into it & the 2 welsh plugs. That is all that seem to be different.
I'm sure Don Loffner & Barry Black know what they are talking about.
Rob J

[nicko]

they do exist and no i cant prove it, but first one i came across was a stock engine and with rare two piece exhaust manifold like GTR red motor ones ,It did over the ton in my car, it was my 6th grey motor in 7 years and none of the others did over 85-90 mph before that engine, when mechanic rebuilt it he found that the stock bearings were not wide enough and it only had 2 welsh plugs whilst his manuels sid it should have 3, i know its not a technical answer but a few old timers who raced speedway swore by them , so to my way of thinking your books are great but not perfect,just because the auther did not find the info on something does not mean it was not out there,he just did not find it.

[nicko]

myth or legend.
canadian blocks
LEGEND

[4hammers]

Hi.
I reckon the 2 piece exhaust headers were either SPECO, Jack Meyers or Thomas headers. Like they said, there was a change in the casting of the blocks, but it doesn't mean they were Canadian blocks. As for the authors of the books not finding the info, I don't think you can say that doesn't prove it. How can they be expected to find proof of a block doesn't exist? If there is no proof, there was no block.
Remember the famous XU2 Torana. I know at least 3 guys down here who had one!!! Could they prove it? Never. They never were able to supply the compliance details, they could never get verification from GMH that they existed. But one of them said, it had the XU2 stickers. But, I pointed out, you could get them from most speed shops at that time. XU2 Myth or Legend? Myth!
Until someone actually produces a Candadian block, I think we will have to put that in the Myth basket.
Regards,
Rob J