Grey Motor info

[nicko]

your wrong,simple  as that, although technically maybe they were not produced in Canada but were a term used for certain castings,thats why they were sort after as they defineatly had thicker bores and better webbing,i only wish i knew the engine numbers of the two i had, that i got from one of these old speedway drivers,as side by side you could see the few differences,and they most certainly went harder even in stock form,you can quote books and authers all day long,but i know your wrong because i have seen and used these engines .

[RET]

Nicko,

You seem to have your mind quite made up.  I am inclined to put a fair amount of faith in what the well known and well respected Holden researchers such as Don and Barry have to offer on the subject.

Maybe it is plausible that the earlier casting with 2 welsh plugs had slightly thicker walls or other characteristics that allowed it to be bored out further than later ones.  But maybe it's just the luck of the draw, too.

Like every other motor built pre robotics and full mechanisation, no two grey motors would be the same.  I've heard of red motors bored and stroked to 235ci that run like hot snot, but I bet for every one that regularly does the ton there are a dozen 'prototypes' that wound up as boat anchors.

And it's also possible that the speedway guy who had the motor before you did who knows what with it.  Those guys were well known for making all sorts of extraordinary changes to the bottom ends of old grey motors, and some of it has been discussed on this site, like cranks from other motors, fitting them out with 7 bearings etc etc.  If there was a market for Dunstan rotary heads and Repco Cross-flow heads and Norman Superchargers and the like, who's to say that the bottom end of your motor was how it came out of the factory?  After all, it had been in a race-car before you had it!

I don't doubt that you had a stove-hot grey motor, but your proof of the existence of "Canadian Blocks" is no more compelling than the research of others disproving it.

cheers
RET

[nicko]

one of those motors was worked and yes the speedway driver had done a fair amount of work to both bottom end and head but the other was a stock standard motor out of another car and that was the one that did just over 100mph, with headers from worked motor and 2inch system,which i doubt would add more than 3 to 5 mph extra where as the worked one took speedo to 110mph with a little more to go when speedo broke and went back to zero and i was too scared to push it anymore as car was floating around road.
I know a couple of you dont agree and will not hear of anyone contradicting you so i wont say another word about it as you will no doubt do your usual and quote books and make little innuendoes about others knowledge.
You know best so why even let anyone bring subject up.

[Effie C]

Stop the planet I want to get off, people arguing over what may or may not have happened 50 years ago.
Let it rest, people have different opinions and believes. Some believe in gods and gurus some do not. Some only from personal experience some from other peoples.
Can we get on to something else
My 2 c worth
John M

[RET]

Geez Nicko no need to have a sook, mate.  If you've got some proof, good for you. I'd love to have this mystery solved, as would plenty of others.  But simply saying "you're wrong I used to have one" is not proof.  I could tell you that I used to own the first FE to come off the production line and you can't disprove it, but you would have every right to be a bit sceptical.

It's a known fact that there a couple of different castings of grey motors, and one of the most obvious differences is the 2 or 3 welsh plugs.  And I do appreciate the variation in webbing thickness.  But neither of these things signify a "Canadian Block".

Some grey motors could be bored out further than others without stuffing them.  No-one disputes that.  But why that is has yet to be solved.  What is known is that no grey motor fitted to any Holden came from anywhere other than Holden's foundries, except for the 5 Detroit built prototypes.  And those motors never left GM-H, even though the cars they were fitted to may have.  (ie the Strongman's 48 prototype).  Furthermore, whilst the motors out of the earliest 48s where highly sought after for racing, people with more knowledge and experience than me have said that there was nothing innately better about the early motors and just as many of them threw a leg out of bed as later ones bored out the same.  Very credible evidence suggests that it is simply the case that some block castings were better than others, and there is no rhyme or reason for it that has been determined.

I'm open to hear anything from anyone that might solve this "mystery".  And I'm not one for innuendo either, I say what I mean.  As I said before, I don't doubt you had a grey motor with plenty of go, but you've got nothing to prove its authenticity as a "Canadian Block".  And without that, I'm inclined to go along with the research of people who have done serious investigation on the subject.

cheers
RET

[4hammers]

Hi All.
Chill out, Nicko. There is no need to get personal & suggest we made snide remarks about people who are trying to help. My suggestion, is you have a look at yourself before posting remarks like this.

I quote:
"I know a couple of you dont agree and will not hear of anyone contradicting you so i wont say another word about it as you will no doubt do your usual and quote books and make little innuendoes about others knowledge."

All we are saying, is there doesn't seem to be any evidence to support the claims. There is a fella down here who races a JWF Italia with a kick arse Grey motor. When I first asked him about the best Grey to use, he scoffed at my suggestion that there was such a thing as a "Canadian". He then went on to say the best block to bore is the EJ. The reason? It was because GMH had finnaly got their shite together & could cast a block well. It wasn't that the bores were thicker in any motor, at ANY stage. It was that they were never that well aligned. He has fitted a Vauxhall steel crank & as you may or may not be aware, the bores have to be slightly re-aligned to accomodate the crank. He went through 4 blocks before he got one that was right.

You also seem to have an issue with Don Loffner & Barry Black. These guys have spent a long time researching the FX FJ & are renound as being the real "Gurus" on this subject. Don has written a book & it sells very well. In my opinion, he is correct & anyone else who wants to disprove him, should go for it. Prove it & I for one will be pleased to see this Canadian.

If for one second you want to be taken seriously, don't sook about being questioned. I actually have one of the different blocks & can assure you, it isn't made in the US or Canada. It has GMH cast on the side.

Tell you what Nicko, you turn one of these fabled blocks up, in any condition & I will give you $2,000 for it. But, I want PROOF!!

Regards,
Rob J


p.s. Sorry John M, but you know me. I like a bit of a "Discussion" (debate, argument, BIFFO!!) & do not sook out.

[RET]

When I first asked him about the best Grey to use, he scoffed at my suggestion that there was such a thing as a "Canadian". He then went on to say the best block to bore is the EJ. The reason? It was because GMH had finnaly got their shite together & could cast a block well.

And EJ motors have only 40 years worth of metal fatigue, not 55

[weedy-burton]

Hi All,

Just wondering what the title of Don Loffners book is and where I can get it.

Cheers

Weedy

[robbzfc58]

3  books by don loffler   "she's a beauty"
      " still holden together"
   " the fj holden"
   all good stuff.   from memory the first has a section on the canadian motor

[Effie C]

Not fatigue RET but seasoning,an EJ block has 40 years of seasoning not 55 like an FX unit

Thou a well seasoned block is more preferable in racing, but how well seasoned do you like
John M

[Jockster]

G'day all
Just to add my two bobs worth, you are al basically correct. A very good old friend of mine who just recently died worked for Holdens from 1947 to 1979 and for the last 20 years of his working life was Manager of the toolroom where all of the dies and casting blanks were made. I had two of these early blocks (still down the back of the shed now) and because I noticed they were different and I had heard of the Canadian Blocks I asked him about it.
What he told me and I have no way of knowing whether or not it is fact, but he was not normally a bloke to bullshit was that there were a lot of these blocks made from 1948 to 1951. They did have stronger webbing and two welch plugs and they were built with better tolerances and better balanced than the normal motors. The reason was that GMH through GM detroit was going to export the motors to Canada for some vehicle that GM Canada wanted to produce. The project was in the pipeline for three years, then the Canadians backed out. GMH had tooled up for the engines and produced them and randomly fitted them to Aussie cars. The gained the nickname Canadian Block from the Foundry workers and it stuck. The reason for the thicker casting and webbing was to combat the extreme cold of the Canadian climate.
I have no way of knowing whether this is fact or not but it sounds feasible to me and as I said he was not prone to bullshit
Cheers
Jock

[nicko]

there i am breaking my word and writing again,
STICK THAT IN YOUR BOOKS,
as its exactly as i remember castings the two welsh plug blocks were faster and tougher and goes with what the old racers said please dig blocks out of shed Jockster and write in engine numbers for all to see. ALL LEGENDS ARE BASED ON 50%FACT AND 50% MYTH

[4hammers]

Let it go, Nicko.
Like Jockster said, "HE HAS NO WAY OF PROVING THIS"!!!
It was an old bloke that may or may not have been bullshitting. You are basing fact on that. Hmm, pretty thin, Mate!!
I can give you the engine number of my "so called Canadian" block, it has the 2 plugs, but it is just an FX motor.
Legends= 100% proven, Myths = 100% bullshite!!!
Rob J

[RET]

Jockster,

That's a new theory about the Canadian Block that I haven't heard before, that they were being produced here to be sent there.  Usually the story has it the other way around!

It certainly is a more considered theory than some I have heard, but I still think it's a bit doubtful.  Consider the length of the waiting lists for the 48-215 during that time-frame.  On p118 of She's a Beauty there's a copy of an order slip for a Holden dated 27-7-50, with an estimated delivery date of July 1952!  If Holden had more orders than they could fill (as is well known - even the introduction of the ute was held back until the backlog of sedan orders could be gotten under control), it would be crazy to attempt to export motors at the same time.  Also, if GM-H put the time, effort and money into producing a better grey motor, why wouldn't they use it in all Holdens?  Even if it cost a bit more to produce, it could have been introduced with the FJ, or the FE.  Eventually the R&D and tooling costs would have been recouped.  By cancelling the project they never would be.

I would also think that there would be something in the Holden Archives documenting the deal with GM Canada, if such an export agreement had been in the works.

I'm interested to know the engine numbers tho, Jockster, if you're planning on digging them out.

cheers
RET

[Jockster]

Ret
I will attempt to get the engine numbers off of the blocks, they are right down the back of the storage shed behind two FJ vans that are awaiting restoration and haven't seen the light of day for about twenty years.
As I said I have no idea whether the old guy was correct in what he told me or not, it is feasible despite the shortage of Holdens at the time a lot of control was still from Detroit and it may have been a project guided from there. As to why they didn't develop them for other Holdens if they were better, well I can only guess that they didn't do it because they didn't need to, they had virtually no competition at that time.
Also as we are all aware manufacturers will save money wherever they can (thats why they still fit steel welch pugs to modern motors even now) and if the engine cost more to make it would have been shelved in favour of the cheaper version.
Thats just my opinion however and it could be totally wrong.
Cheers
Jock

[RET]

Jockster,

That's true and for that matter there may have been political pressure to produce the export motor (for balance-of-trade and all that).  But that aside, if GM-H didn't have the capacity to produce the motors, why wouldn't GM (who surely would have) not built them?  And it would be a lot simpler and cheaper to freight the motors from Detroit to Canada than from Melbourne.

You are right that there's no real need to innovate without competition, and I appreciate what you say about saving costs, but that's what's a bit strange about the story - after all the cost is in the tooling more than the individual units (the first block would cost millions of pounds to produce, the second one next to nothing).  So if they were able to make one, why not keep making them?

Or implement the changes (if they were proven to make the engine more powerful, stronger etc) when the bore was increased to 138?  Surely that would be the time to do it.  Yet the exterior of the 138 is identical to the FC 132.

They'd have to have been sustantially more expensive to produce to warrant throwing away the tooling and R&D costs, and I can't see how thicker webbing alone could make that much of a difference.

cheers
RET

[4hammers]

OK.
I went & dug my "Canadian " block out of the shed. I have it sitting next to a standard bore "J" block that I have for modifying.
The engine number on the ODD block is 138838. It has GMH (in that cicle kind of insignia they use) cast into the side. The head had the same casting. Things I note that are different are;
The welsh plugs are a smaller diameter along the side of the block.
There seems to be a bit of extra meat internally.
Also, the most obvious difference, is that the ODD block where the side welsh plugs are is smoother. The webbing around the welsh plugs is not as pronounced & along the lower part of that side, it is totally smooth, without the second ridge that runs parallel the the bottom ridge. The J block has the more pronounced webbing & a secondary ridge(hope I am making myself clear).
I will try & scam a digital camera & get a shot of the differences. Then I will post it here for all to see.
I have also just dug out my engine number ID book & it tells me it is an early FJ block, not even an FX!!!

Regards,
Rob J

p.s. This Canadian block is for sale $3,000 as it is the first one made (sorry, I can't prove it though!!)
 

[Jockster]

Wow $3000 for the block. I might have to go down to the back of the shed sooner than I thought, I might make some money on these old engines and who knows what other treasures I might find down there that I have forgotten
Cheers
Jock

[FCwagon]

To add my five cents worth (you can't spend 2's anymore). Years ago I spoke with an interesting guy who worked in maintenance at Fishermans bend and he also mentioned as did RET that there are no identical grey motors due to the casting process. Much of the tooling and dies was hand finished so also no 2 dies were the same.
We were discussing the subject of how the General  moves to series 2 Holdens, gets things right then drops it for a new model. He mentioned that has happened since day one with many of the major components being upgraded with nothing more than an internal memo ordering machinery changes to accommodate. The reason the early blocks changed to the "series 2" with 3 welsh plugs was the problems encountered removing the casting sand from the block with 2 welsh plugs. That's what the welsh plugs are there for after all.  
I'm not disputing whether or not "Canadian" blocks existed because I don't know. I'm merely passing on  another view on the subject.
cheers,
Leigh

[FE_225]

Hi Guys
I decided to do some digging, to try and find out the truth about the "Canadian Greymotor".
The info below was collected with the help of
Norm Darwin, author  of The history of Holden,
David Hayward, Automotive and Military Historian and author,
Ken Kaufmann, GM historian and author
Thanks guys for answering my questions.


Here it is........

Was there really a "Canadian Greymotor?"
"This myth has arisen because in my opinion the initials "CWO" were cast in on the original blocks which, understandably, some bright spark thought that they stood for, with justification, "Canadian War Office". However this was a misreading, and in fact the initials were "CWC", for "Campbell,Wyant & Cameron Foundry Company, Muskegon,Michigan USA". CWC produced castings for GM along with Ferro, and other companies in the 490 and F series days.Ferro continued to provide castings for GMC/Pontiac until at least 1928..Ferro Machinery & Foundry Company, Cleveland, Ohio. This proves that GM farmed out limited-run castings for prototypes and one-offs to contractors that they had a traditional relationship with. There is no evidence of any Canadian involvement. GM of Canada subsidiary McKinnon Industries Limited of St. Catherines,Ontario cast blocks and heads for GM of Canada from 1935 and yet there is a photo in the Canadaina Archives from 1936 of castings being made in the Walker Metal Products Limited factory,Walkerville, Ontario, for GM and that company had as Hiram Walker & Co.Limited metal works produced Chevrolet and Buick castings for GM of Canada 1922-24/5. How do we know? Because "HW" was cast into the components!There would have been a Maple Leaf or some other identity cast in if these were Canadian castings. No, the original castings were US-produced to GM CORPORATION contract, and the castings were made by C-W-C. They probably produced the original formers etc. to drawings from GM Engineering. Don't forget that it was still wartime, and Flint, Saginaw, Tonawanda plants were all fully occupied with war contracts for engines. Whether military GMC units were also farmed out to casting companies because of demand I have no idea but it makes sense. However, McKinnons produced all known Canadian military Chevrolet castings, though they could not cope with GMC military demand and so GMCs were produced in Canada for just one year, August 1940
on, and all the rest were bought in from Pontiac Plant.

No, this has been an urban myth that has become urban lore....and yet it's pure error. If someone had not misinterpreted the CWC initials then "Canadian" would never have arisen. It's only because Ken Kaufmann and I did enormous research into the early Chevrolet castings that we found out about C-W-C, and so it's really only in recent years that we have found the answer. I have to thank Ken for finding out whom C-W-C was".
David Hayward


Were the C-W-C prototypes exported to Oz?
"There must in my humble opinion have been an export of blocks and heads, and all the cores, etc., plus the blueprint drawings....I wonder if they came on the boat with Russell Begg? They would have been no use to GM, and yet GM had paid for the castings so they would surely have been sent out and then charged to the program cost: "The Australian Car Program" in GM Overseas Division parlance.
I would hazzad a guess that GM wrote off some of the costs of the 195-Y- projects against the ACP.... GM looked to recover as many bucks as possible after the war for wartime projects, and losses.
The other point that comes to mind is whether Project 320 used any of these early castings? I am certain that given tight costings, every casting that was brought over, once inspected and studied was used up in a car that hit the road..."
David Hayward

What about the "thicker cylinder wall" story in the "Canadian" Grey?
"This possibly had something to do with the manufacturing process more than anything else. In other words CWC were able to fix the sand cores in the casting moulds far more accurately than Holdens process allowed. Thus they could be bored to larger sizes without breaking into the water block."
Norm Darwin

"That was also true of the 1925 FERRO block being the racers choice for the Chev 4 - FERRO was more able to position its cylinder moulds more dead center so the cylinders could be bored out further then the other blocks because the cylinder walls were better centered".
Ken Kaufmann

How's that sound? Not Canadian but US built, and the large over boring that was possible can be put down to better production techniques of the US foundry than the Holden cast blocks.

Anybody got a CWC block they want to part with  
Hope this helps
Cheers
Tony