grey motor rebuild

[grey_ray]

The engine in my EK is making a horrible knocking noise which sounds awfully like a big end.

Who are some of the engine places in WA that I should be talking to?

I understand that the guy at Watmor Engines used to race greys at the speedway, but unfortunately he passed away a little while ago. Are there any other guys like this still around?

At least this gives me an excuse to build a warm grey motor.

I intend to put twin strombergs on it, and headers maybe. This is not an everyday driver, so it can be a little bit hairy.


What should I be asking for to have a streetable grey?


Ray.

[FE_UTE]

Ray, speak to Tumbles.
The bloke that did the work on my grey...Ray Abbott in Bayswater. He knows a few things about warm greys.When I took the block and head to him Tumbles was asking about hot greys
If I find his number I will send you a pm

[TorqueFC]

Ray,
      have just finished fully rebuilding and working a grey, (for the fc ute to the left of my message) its bored 100 thou over, balanced/blueprinted, fitted with bridge supports, has doubble size 202 stainless valves and a fully ported head, it is not running yet, but do have tripple carbies and headers for it.

just keep in mind, when hotting up a grey, they are definately not cheap, the grey we done so far owes about $3800- and it still needs another good $500- (for electronic dizzy) all for something like 140hp. although there is nothing kooler than a grey running a big cam and a pair of headers , just keep in mind though a hot red will cost around the same but will have much more go and more than likely more reliable-just my opinion though!!!

[Burnsy]

Ray, what EK - you bought another car?  Haven't past you driving this one to work yet?  Saw an awsome blue one Sunday evening that had the Aussie flag painted across its bonnet, it looked real cool, have to watch out for it and get a picture.

I was talking to the guy at Watmore late in December - has he past since then or are you talking about a different guy there.  Either way, he no longer worked the tools much and they do a fair few greys there, there where two on the shop floor while I was talking to him.  I showed him the olbis and my twin webers and he got quite excited.  Point is, they are still worth talking too.

Apparently there is another engine rebuild guy working out of a building near the Piano Man in John St Bently who apparently also use to play around with speedway grey motors.  I have not spoken to him yet, Bert Vosbergen (Vosbergen Heads - another old holden man) put me onto him.

[FE_UTE]

Depends on how deep your pockets are, Ray

There is an FJ sedan racing at Wanneroo as well as the east in the historics

He has a real tough grey ..dry sumped with tripple su's...was clocked at 135mph at Bathurst down conrod straight

That was built here by Bob Campbell...Malaga for  10K
Very good engine builder...his son lives down the road from me. They know greys very well

Owned and raced by Mike Miller

[grey_ray]

10 grand!:o
Unfortunately my pockets don't go quite that deep.

Burnsy, I bought Brad's EK.
I haven't driven it to work yet, because I've had to sort out the brakes first. Now I've got an engine problem.

That blue FB with the airbrushed Aussie flag has been around for a while. I think he lives in Thornlie somewhere - I've seen it a fair bit around Spencer Road.
I saw it at Big Al's this year, he had it or sale for $6000. Its got a grey motor, sounds nice with extractors and twin exhausts.

TorqueFC, your engine sounds awesome. I know what you mean when you talk about cost vs reliability and cost vs nostalgia.
I've still got a mini hidden away in my shed, and I've had a few over time. Anyway try getting a Cooper S motor built to give about 100hp or so and see if you can get any change out of six grand. Oh yeah, the gearbox needs to be rebuilt at the same time (shared oil, don't want old bits of gearbox in the new engine) and you can only imagine what that would cost.

Thats why I prefer to play with old Holdens.

I have had a couple of days off work to get the brakes on the EK sorted, which I've done. Took it for a drive on Sunday night to get some dinner, and I ended up dropping it back home and getting the Commodore. The noise was that worrying.

Anyway I decided to move that car onto the lawn this morning to wash it, before I put it away into cold storage. Having a closer listen today, I don't think the noise is coming from the bottom end. Its very loud and sounds more like its coming from the top of the motor.

Maybe a stuck valve, or a broken rocker?

I suppose I can check by taking the rocker cover off and turning the motor over?

I can't just give a stuck valve a bit of a whack and hope to free it, can I?

Wouldn't it mean I'm up for a new valve, and a new head? Or at least a reground valve seat?

Maybe I'd be better off just getting the whole thing rebuilt anyway?

If its something that is not too expensive, then I can fix it or get it fixed now. Otherwise it will be a few months before I could think about a rebuild.


Ray.

[FB_MAD]

  G'day Ray.Engine noises are hard to explain in words.Bottom end noise, ie big end, is more of a dull "cushioned" knocking noise at idle and increasing in volume at revs and especially engine load.Upper engine noise tends to be less "cushioned" and more intense or "clacky","tappy" etc.There is an engine diagnostic tool call an Engine Stethoscope which  looks the same as a doctors one and used in similar way but has a hollow metal rod on the end. You place the end of the rod on the engine near the engine noise area.Can be helpfull as it can pinpoint noises better.Don't know the $$$ these cost though.
 Could be a number if things causing the noise.I'd start with the least time consuming and least expensive pull apart options like pulling off the rocker cover and/or sideplate and haveing a look there.Won't hurt to start the motor with these covers off but you may get some oil on the engine or floor so a bit of plastic on the floor would help.
Some things could be broken springs or valve spring collets,dropped/broken valve,bent pushrod,broken rocker etc.These can be seen and repaired (except dropped/broken valve) without pulling the head off and/or the engine out.
Next step off with the head and a lookey see there.No diagnosis yet then out comes the motor for a bottom end look.
Not expensive if you can do all this yourself.

There again if your searching for engine rebuild excuses to throw at the finance ministeress then I have a book of excuses here.

Hope this waffling is of use to you,

Terry.

P.S. Valves can stick in daily driven engines but usually only happens in engines not driven regularly,due to no oil lube there and/or carbon buildup for a while.Older/worn or dirty oily engines (internally) can carbon up around the valve stems and guides and become "stickey".If so they can sometimes be freed up by undoing rocker shaft and with offending cyl at bottom dead center(don't want to hit the piston with the valve head),some WD 40 and a brass drift and hammer give the valve stem end/spring assembly some moderate taps to move the valve with squirts of WD 40.I've done this with a 1937 Chev six with a stuck valve.This motor had not run since 1961!! and it worked and still runs OK.

[Ed]

Hi,

I'm not sure on the validity of this.. but one of my motorcycle manuals says to use a length of dowel as a stethoscope.

ie put one end near the source of the noise against the block or head and it will be audible at the other end.

may be worth a go

Cheers

Ed

[Trevor_B]

Ray,
If you think it's a sticking valve then a compression test may give you some insight - a cheap compression test gauge runs around $25. You could check the plugs at the same time to see if they are all burning the same as well.
Would also be worth taking the rocker cover off and running the motor to see the valve train is working correctly. Most that will cost is around $10 for a new rocker cover gasket.

You can even make your own backyard Stethoscope by using a length of garden hose and holding it to the motor - move it around until you get to the loudest area and that will be where the problem is. Not as flash but still works.

Hope that some of this helps.
Trevor_B

[nicko]

we always use a big screw driver as a stephascope cost nothing and lets you pinpoint noise.

[grey_ray]

Looks like my weekend has been mapped out for me.

Probing for noises, compression tests, rocker cover and side plate removal.

Inspecting the valve train, pushrods etc.

If I do find a stuck valve, I'll try your trick, Terry.

Otherwise, the head is coming off. :-/

The engine in this car has been sitting for a while, and it probably didn't help that the timing was retarded before I checked it over with new plugs, points etc. The distributor was out by a tooth or more.
Retarded timing leads to some scary exhaust temperatures - which kinda makes me think it may be a problem with a valve.

Anyway, thanks for the advice. Of course I'll let everyone know how I go on the weekend.


Ray.

[grey_ray]

I had a bit of a probe around the motor and decided that the noise was definitely coming from the top end of the motor, at the back somewhere.

I took the rocker cover off, and let the motor run. All the rocker gear seemed to be moving as it should, with no obvious broken rockers or springs.

The next step was to do a compression test.
According to the manual the first stroke should be around 75 psi, and the fourth about 115psi, with a max of 10 psi difference between cylinders.
Here were my readings

Cylinder // FIRST READING(psi) // SECOND READING(psi)
1               75                               120
2               75                               120
3               75                               120
4               75                               120
5               75                                 90
6                -                                    -

ie no compression on the last cylinder and low on #5

I squirted oil into number 5 cylinder and got
5*             75                               120

Which I guess means that the rings are gone in number 5

I squirted oil into number 6 cylinder and got
6*             5                                   30

Which I suppose means that the rings are gone in number 6, but the main problem is with the valves in number 6 ?

I haven't taken the head off yet, because at least at the moment I can still move the car around in the yard if I have to.

With the compression down in number 5 like it is, would it be worth putting another head on the motor as is, without touching the bottom end?
Or would this just be asking for trouble?

I managed to get another grey motor from a swapmeet on Sunday. It was used on a bench to run a saw, with a pulley stuck onto the end of the output shaft of the gearbox. The seller said he was getting a little bit of oil in the water. He figured it was the head gasket, so he took the head off to take a look, and thats as far as he got. I got the engine cheap, with all of the accessories.

Looking at the head and valves they all look pretty good, and the bores of the bottom end look good too.

Would it be worthwhile putting this head on the bottom end of the engine thats in the car now?
Or would I be better off putting the swapmeet engine back together?
How can I tell if this swapmeet engine is any good? What should I be looking for?
Should I just put a new headgasket on it and run it on the bench to check the compression etc?
Or can I tell the condition of the motor before putting it together?
Or should I just put new gaskets etc through the whole thing, paint it and put it in the car?

Ray.

[grey_ray]

Well, I finally got some time off work to have a little bit of a play with my cars.

I took the head off the engine in the EK and I found something really horrible - what looked like a pebble or something dropped out of the head when I took it off. But it was a pebble - it was actually part of number 6 piston!!!






What would cause the piston to break up like this?
Would retarted timing cause it?


So the option of putting the better head on this bottom end no longer exists  

Oh well, at this point it looks like I'm going to put the swapmeet engine together and drop that into the EK.
Having a good look at it the pistons and bores are in good condition, and the valves in the head are much better than  those I just took off the engine in the car now.

Besides new head, manifold, rocker cover and sideplate and other gaskets, is there anything else I should be checking or replacing on the swapmeet engine before I put it into the car?


Cheers,
Ray.

[Bent]

G'day Ray
         I have recently completed a cheap rebuild on my gray 138.
         Whilst it was out of the car, I completely stripped it (not too difficult) cleaned everything. Paying particular attention to the pressure regulating plunger in the oil pump. Lucky for me all parts were in good nick.
         I got top end and bottom end gasket kits from repco for about $150.00 and reassembled the donk using same bearings and rings.
          It has been in my FJ for about 12 months now and is running like a dream.
          I am now rebuilding a second grey (132), this time I need new pistons. My #3 is about to do what your #6 has done. My local repco here in Katherine has quoted me just over $300.00 for a piston assy kit. So this rebuild will be a little more expencive than the last.
          But I guess what I am trying to say, is that while you have the engine out it is not all that hard, expencive or time consuming to strip, it clean it, have a good look at everything, and put it back together with new gaskets. Resulting in peace of mind.

Regards
Scotty

P.S. I did notice the some of my welsh plugs were just about stuffed so I replaced all of them too. (easy)
..
       

[FB_MAD]

Scotty, a tad over $300 for a set of grey motor piston assemblies is a pretty good price.I guess if they are from Repco they are probably ACL pistons. J.P. pistons also make 'em but I think from memory they are up near the $500 mark.

Terry.

[andykotzur]

Looks like a broken top ring. Happened to me years ago. I closed it up because it had scoured the bore, drove it for another 3000ks and then it realy got noisy, and smokey. If it hasn`t damaged the bore  you should be able to replace,repair it.
andy

[David_Lane]

Just had to log on re Watmor Engines. Tom Watson is the veteran grey speedcar driver and he is still in the land of the living. (and still racing, Esslinger though). He has just sold Watmors however is on call for any sort of help. I have worked at Watties for 12 years as a machinist and am now the general manager. Door is always open for enthusiasts without the big sell.

David Lane

[weddo]

Hi guys, Weddo from Tassie here,

After seeing all those nice hot grey motors at Phillip Island I decided to do something with mine. Being in Tassie has some disadvantages for parts etc, but I have a reasonable supply of starter parts in good blocks and heads etc, but it took some time to find any go fast parts.  In Tassie, you buy what you can when you can. I managed to get a new set of unfinished step top pistons, Lynx manifold, a few sets of tripple SU's to choose from and a bloody good motor builder - John Brookefield - (Brockies early motor builder )- and of we went.  Well, we all know when not to say STOP !! when doing anything with grey motors, so although it cost two arms and three legs to build the motor and head - 10:1 compression, cam grind, alloy gears, full balance and alter the manifold to suit late model high 38 SU's there really is nothing like the deep throatal sound of a grey just wanting to go and go.

So good luck Ray and if you can ever build a hot one or a mild one you won't wipe the smile of your face

[HARKO]

it cost two arms and three legs to build the motor and head

Its a very full bodied motor