186 / 202...?

[eff_see]

howdy.  

can i put a blue 202 crank and rods into a 186 block?

i think i read somewhere that the 186 had a stroke of 3in and the 202 is like 3¼in or something...? custom pistons are a must anyways...

only reason i ask is that the blue rods and crank are SO much better than red parts - and i have a formula to make a genuine 450RWHP out of a turbo'd 202 using a (prepped) blue bottom end.

main reason i ask is that i don't have the budget for special rods and billet cranks.

if anyone else has any ideas then please post (maybe another combo...).

thanks

[Glenn 'Stinky' Stankevicius]

I am sure the crank in my 202 is a blue motor jobbie, the rods are Starfire items. Apparently BMW rods are the go for strength and cost less than the specialty items. The last Extreme Magazine features a Turboed orange LJ Torana that uses BMW rods and is pulling 10s down the quarter.

[eff_see]

what BMW are the rods from? can i still put a 202 crank in a 186 block with these rods?

[eff_see]

53 views and only one reply...?

is there anywhere i can FIND this info? i've tried googling but i get practically nothing on modifying a 186 - just manufacturer's specs a million times over.

anyone?

[Glenn 'Stinky' Stankevicius]

I'll call the guy who built my motor, he mentioned the BMW rods to me ages ago, or you call the dude who owns the Torana. He has his own business -
Mark - EZE 10s Performance - 0404 171 101

[NO NAME]

53 views and only one reply...?

is there anywhere i can FIND this info? i've tried googling but i get practically nothing on modifying a 186 - just manufacturer's specs a million times over.

anyone?

Ive been looking too, and what was australias favourite six seems to be forgotten about, if anyone comes accross a good informative sight on modifying holden sixes let us know.
I also plan to use blue crank and rods in my next rebuild, we did it with a mates motor but we had to take the blue crank and red block into a engine shop for machining. it went pretty hard and went from being slower to faster than my car ( seriously we would drag each other at least once a day for about 3 years).
try searching for sites including LJ and LC toranas, those guys seem to take there red sixes more serious than over holden people.

[Dave_EH]

Hey guys,

I'd try Ian Tate (former mechanic for HDT).  He runs his own automotive business now.  There was a feature in Australian Muscle Car a while back about his work on red 202 motors.  What he doesnt know about makong holden sixes go quick isn't worth knowing.

I can have a look for the article if you like.

There is also a feature on Ron Harrop's FJ howler that ran a 179 that put out 255KW.  I think there was some info on rods in that feature as well

Cheers
Dave

[earlyholdenfan]

Have you tried the other Holden model clubs that ran the 202's, torana sites, maybe even the later Holden or Monaro sites could have some information??
maybe worth a look?
Matt

[Tumbles]

Hey guys don't quote me on this as I haven't had a chance to check my books but the crank and rods are the same from a 149 to the 186, holden then made a new crank for the 202.  Now I believe that 202 crank won't fit into the smaller engines as the main journals are spaced out differently, I played around with a stroker 186 about ten years ago and from memory the ford 221 crank would fit into a 186 or a 179 but not the 202.  All you need to do is ring up a local eng builder and they should be happy to tell you what you can and carn't do.  If you want your red to go fast $2000 rod hatfield super charger bolts straight on and is legal and when you blow that motor up bolt it on the next one.
Tumbles

[Jonno]

"If you want your red to go fast $2000 rod hatfield super charger bolts straight on and is legal"

sorry to hijack this thread but a lot of folk talking about these..has anyone actually got one? If so what's it like, how does it go in normal use, and does it fit in FE/FC engine bay? I think quite a few of us would be interested..

Jonno

[Glenn 'Stinky' Stankevicius]

And if you are a handy-man, $350-500 will buy you one of the supercharger units. You just have to work it all out.
I saw one of the HaDfield kits on an LJ torana, apparently it gave the torrie a fair bit more horsepower at the expense of running hotter.
If it fits in the LJ engine bay, I don't think FE/FCs would be a problem.

[Dr_Terry]

Hi Guys.

I missed this post, otherwise I would have answered earlier.

The only thing stopping a 202 crank fitting a 186 block is the larger main bearing jounal diameter. The 202 has a longer stroke (3" vs 3.25") & shorter skirt piston to match, rods are the same length. 202 & 186 are the same bore.

The 2 ways out of this are,

1. Machine the main journal (& the rear seal area) down 186 size.
OR
2. Have the 186 block line bored to accept the 202 crank journals.

The thing is, both of these procedures are expensive when compared to the worth of a 2nd hand 202 block. What are you trying to achieve. Just get a complete 202.

Dr Terry.

[NO NAME]

1st reason is I like the HP lettering and I can say although it has a later model motor it's still a 60's motor.

2nd, I like it at the drags when they say"in the left lane we have Leon from seven hills with his 179 powered FC holden. although it is really 192ci

3rd, I dont want to go through all the hassles with blue slippers and engineers again.

a blue 3.3 block has to comply with the adr's of the year of the block.

[eff_see]

exactly ^^^

slip a 186 in there, even though it has a bigger crank and more ci, and it still says "186" on the side.

machining out the journals isn't a big issue really, it would be the only real expense in the whole project.

everything else is factory with ACL pistons, rings and pins, ARP studs, linished, polished and cryo treated rods & crank, cryo treated bearings, pistons, block and valves, rhodes lifters, crow cam and pushrods.

unsure of the head atm, but using a thin copper head gasket and sleeves for the oil and water galleries.

9.5:1 CR (ACL pistons are only available in 10.0:1 so they'll need a small dish machined in them) and about 12psi of boost (about 13.5:1 total CR)

running a trace molybdenum in the sump to harden all the bearings and bushes.

running a pair of Subaru Forester turbos on the side of it ($100 ea!!).

delco management.

aaaaaaaaand i think that's about it.

[Dr_Terry]

Hi guys.

OK then, message received.

A 179 HP will bore quite safely to 192 ci, but that has nothing to do with a 202 crank.

If you wish to keep the HP block, have the crank main journals mahined down. If you don't do any further stroking, you will have a 208, if you keep the 192 bore.

Dr Terry.

[oldgmh]

Many years ago when I lived in the ACT it used to be illegal to run a bigger engine in any old holden, for example: to replace a 149 or 179 in an EH with a 202.  However some friends of mine (not me of course) worked out that with a bit of grinding, the 202 numbers on the side of the block would come off making it look like a 149 block.  If you needed a 179 block then liquid steel from a tube could be formed into HP for the side of the block. Then with just a bit of work on the engine number to reflect the changes and, hey presto, a 149 that performs just like 202!!  

So you could even line up at the drags and tell everyone you have a small block 149 powered FC!

Have fun
earlee.

[craiga]

Good tip!!!

I used the same liquid steel to make my drum brakes look like discs, and my king pins look like ball joints. Works a treat - the car even handles and stops better.

Alright!!!!!



Sorry couldn't resist....................

[eff_see]

changing engine numbers is a big no-no.

if you get caught out - worse still you have an accident, kill someone and THEN get caught out - you're talking being a  blow up doll for a big bloke named bubba with a packet of hotdogs for a neck sleeping in the bunk above you.

no thanks.

[oldgmh]

Hey eff_see,  

of course if you change an engine number and get caught - then you are a dickhead!  

The idea is to not get caught -  same as everything else in this world - if you don't like it then don't do it!

kind regards
earlee.

[NO NAME]

 I have a To4 but I am missing the exhuast manifold and needs a rebuild, my motor currently is a HP bored to 192, balanced, 35/75 hydrulic, ported with big valves, double springs, posi locks, ross balancer, VH dizzy, extractors, and a 350 holley with electric fuel pump and fan and it has nowere near the power I would like.    transmission is a beefed up tri matic with a hurst pro master 2 shifter.
I have been thinking of getting a ex jap car supercharger but I am not real sure of the value as they are only made for small motors, one way of overcoming this would maybe be to simply overdrive it a bit more i guess.
another thing I was thinking of was a 100 hp nitrous kit but it would then only have the extra power when I was using the nitrous and means costly re fills and is too expensive to use when I am running late for work.
Also I hope to not blow up the motor as I will be relying on it to get me to work.
at the present I would like to give my motor a freshen up, I dont have all the funds to go all out yet but I thought it would be a good Idea to do what I can while replacing the subframe.
So now I want to figure out what I will be doing and prepare the bottom end.
I was thinking a blue crank and rods, keeping the standard O/S ACL pistons if they go together, straight cut gearsand a balance. I dont know wether to keep the cam as I dont know how to go with the induction yet.
up top I was hoping to add roller rockers and having the head reconditioned again, head is a fairly hot 9 port red and according to the guys that did the last reco it can not be shaved again. origionally I was just going to change the crank and rods, fit a 40/70 solid cam and a 390 or 420 4bbl holley and a 2500rpm stall convertor.
now that I am living within hearing distance of eastern creek I want to start going to street meets again, the car was running fairly consistantly 17.0-17.2 as is but with a 2:78 and a 3 speed with a speco centreshift that jambed if you shifted too quick, I haven't run it with the auto as everything out there is pretty quick now and it could be embarrassing to pull a 17.0 next to a 13 second hatch back.
with rego, nationals accomidation and other stuff needed for the car in the next 6 weeks I am going to have to do whatever I can on a budget.
I would like to get into 15's but even quicker would be much better.
should i go- a big cam 3.3 crank and 4bbl,
- a turbo
- nitrous
or a jap car supercharger.
I am mainly looking for hp per dollar as well as strength.
and will I be sacraficing RPM with the longer stroke of the blue crank?