Maize cream.

[Ed]

Hello,

Doea anybody have any pictures of any cars featuring the colour Maize cream?

code: 7467
Maize Cream

I checked out the colour swatch in the technical section, but Im keen to see it in a photo if possible.

Cheers

Ed

[Geoff_K]

Ed,
Earlier this year a FJ ute at Ivanhoe popped up as Maize Cream, code 253-16314.
Never saw it, dont know where it is now.
I believe that Maize Cream (colour code 5) was one of the original Holden Colours.
On the FE, Maize Cream was available on FE/215, FE/217, FE/219,  FE/225 (single colour, and Maize Cream over Condor Yellow), FE/2104, and FE/2106.

Geoff_K  

[Ed]

Thanks Geoff,

some interesting facts there on paint.

Im considering top colours to use on the wagon, originally Etna maroon with castle grey top.

Im considering, an ivory or light beige instead of the grey.

or silver (aka metallic grey lol).

Cheers

Ed

[Geoff_K]

Ed,
The colours you are considering are interesting.  Maybe you should organise a look at my Desert Tan 217 paint job, and compare it with Alfio's 2 pack Etna Maroon (Metallic) and Cream/White 225 before you committ.
I thought your wagon was a FC, is it an FE, and would you be able to give me the ID plate/chassis details for my research on colour combinations
Geoff_K

[mcl1959]

This is a Maize cream pvan which eventually became the replacement body shell for the 3 door panel van I built  years ago.
I have details of Maize cream on all the vehicles Geoff has detailed but no record of Condor yellow as an FE colour.  Do you have any record of a car in this colour Geoff?
FE wagons I have recorded are
Teal Blue over Breton Blue
Teal Blue over Elk Blue
Anvil Grey over Cabot Grey
Castle Grey over Corsair Tan
Anvil Grey over Castle Grey
Gypsy Red over Cabot Grey
Royal Marine over Castle Grey
Etna Maroon over Cascade White
Etna Maroon over Castle Grey
Leon Green over Royal Marine
Biscay Green over Shannon Green
Turquoise over Sarasota White
Bermuda Green over Levant Green
Russet Brown over Cuban Beige
Huron Green over Ocean Mist Green
Shannon Green
Cuban Beige
Frankston Cream

Any info on another colour would be interesting

Regards  Ken

[Ed]

Hi Geoff,

I may take a peak at ur desert tan machine for some more ideas,

I will also give u my car body no's etc on Monday, it's an FE yes.

Alfio's beautiful Rosie, is Sparkling Burgundy, a Ford colour which is probably as close to Etna as you can get.  Ive had some Etna mixed up from eye matching the internal surface of my glove box.  I am going to get some more mixed up in a Clear Over Base system, and this will probably be some derivative of Sparkling Burgundy also.

Ken,

Thanks for the pic of the Maize Cream panel van, I like the bamboo/ivory tones.

Cheers

Ed

[Geoff_K]

Ken,
Condor Yellow was an initial release FE colour as:-
164-475 Condor Yellow with Black & Toucan Yellow Trim FE/225
164-483 Condor Yellow with Spanish Cream Trim FE/215
164-490 Condor Yellow with Spanish Cream Trim FE/217

and as mid 1957 release as:-
164-710 Condor Yellow with Black & Toucan Yellow Trim FE/225
(re-numbering of codes only)

I do not have any records of cars in this colour.

You have a good record of FE wagons, but still have a long way to go, that is, you have 18 combinations out of a possible 111.

Cheers,  Geoff_K

[RET]

I'm very intrigued by those trim codes.  It was my understanding that all standard and business sedans had single-colour PVC trims with pattern and/or embossing on them, without stainless mouldings or armrests.  The database that I have of these - which I do not claim is necessarily complete, mind you! - has only single-tone interiors for 215s and 217s.

The codes you have there suggest that there were two-tone interiors for standard and business sedans, or at the very least, code numbers generated for them.  The numbers do appear to have been allocated in batches.

As for the renumbering, it is my understanding that the trim code uniquely identifies the supplier as well as the colour and model for which the trim suits, so 475 and 710 may well have both been used concurrently, rather than one superseding the other.

I'd love to see the source documents you've got, that's for sure!

cheers
RET

[HAD 708]

I will argree with Richard on that one i am pretty sure that All business and standard sedans,wagons ,vans or utes used as richard has said the one plain color not any two tone mixes as mentioned and that applies to the interior as well. It is fine to say that they could have come in a variety of color combos but in reality the factory only used a small number of dealer and customer favorites/choices especially in the standard and business range/s that were researched and workshopped over the months prior to the model release.

[Geoff_K]

Guys,

The Trims with the Condor Yellow external colour, are elastcofab for the FE/225 (Black & Toucan Yellow), and PVC for the FE/215 and FE/217 (Spanish Cream)
With respect to the 2 codes for the same colour, in practical terms there would have been an overlap, but the ENGINEERING DEPT. 'CAR COLOUR SPECIFICATIONS' sheet is clear that 710 (SUPERSEDES 475).
As this document is from the good old days when worksheets were progressively added to this instruction could have been 23 JULY '57, 6 AUG. '57, 10 SEPT. '57.
The PVC trim for the FE is uniformly 'grained', but not over 'embossed' as for the FC. All PVC door trims are without stainless mouldings or armrests.
With respect to 'business' trim range/s, I would love to get more information on what actually happened, because the published range seems excessively large.


Cheers,  Geoff_K

[RET]

Geoff,

It seems to me that the existence of a code for the colour does not necessarily mean any cars were thus manufactured.  If you look at the lists of external trim numbers there are clear gaps that suggest there were colour combinations that might have seemed a good idea to the designers, but never in fact made it into the wild.  Perhaps they were more appealing on paper than metal

In one of Don Loffler's books there is an anecdote about a fellow (GM-H employee) whose FJ seemed to change colour on an almost weekly basis.  It is thought his car was used as a test mule for the colour combinations on the drawing board.  For that matter it would be interesting to compare the trim of late FJ commercials and standard sedans with the early FEs.

It's possible that there had been initial plans to have two-tone interiors on the standard and business sedans, but this was nixed - perhaps to cut costs on the cheaper models and to be a greater differentiator between them and the glamour model?  That's supposition of course, but the fact that those 483 and 490 codes aren't in the list of renumbered codes from 1957 suggests to me that they either were dropped early on, or more likely never made into production in the first place.

I love these sorts of discussions.  If you can bring copies of the doco you're looking at to the meeting I'd greatly appreciate a butcher's at it.

cheers
RET

[mcl1959]

Geoff, your document sounds a treasure!
I can confirm that FE trim changed mid way through.
I had an FE std with early trim code that had a 2 piece door trim.  that is a row of stitching horizontally across the door trim between the door handles.
All 4 doors were the same.  Another std I owned had a one piece door trim and had the later code.  Also early specials had different colour scheme to later specials.
I have had a '56 Etna / Castle sedan where the front door trim pattern had the colours opposing the paint on the door tops, whereas later '57 Etna's had the colours together.  This sort of difference would neccesitate the existence of another code for the interior style. Otherwise the wrong door trims would be supplied on order.
I have record of this car
FE 225 9587 S
5 / 475 AO     Black & Toucan Yellow
256 / 7467     Maize Cream

Siggy Moseneder's FE has a front seat in it which is possibly Black & Toucan Yellow, it looks black & white but there is no black & white interior for FE hence my assumption of a faded yellow.

I can post pic of the seat if interested.

RET - late FJ trim WAS exactly the same as FE std trim, I have confirmed this on a number of FJ's I have seen.
Geoff, business trim range looks the same as std but seats are padded differently so would have different codes for seats.  I'm pretty sure the door trime were the same though - all my FE217's had door trims which looked like std door trims.

I think if a code number was raised then 1 car at least was probably produced.  The problem though is that so few remain now that the probability of finding that one car is low.  (perhaps now you see my zeal at recording EVERY car I see or hear about just in case it is that one car which I will never see again!)

Like RET, I also would love a Captain Cook at your doc's as they may provide a lot of answers.

Regards  Ken

[mcl1959]

Just a bit more -
I have a copy of GMH SALES BULLETIN M711  4th Jan 1957
COLOUR AND TRIM COMBINATIONS
A new range of color and trim combinations will be introduced on all Holden Passenger Models from Mid-January to April 1957 inclusive. We set out the new combinations hereunder:
HOLDEN STANDARD SEDAN
Maize Cream      Taurus Red PVC
etc
etc

the doc lists all colour schemes available for the period specified - it seems that Spanish Yellow was not continued past 1956

Ken

[Geoff_K]

Ken & RET,
The plot thickens-
Engineering Department > Sales Department etc.
I am still trying to get my head around all the data, some of which appears to have 'typos', or maybe some cross referencing errors.  All the same, very interesting, so much stuff to wade through.
In summary Engineering Dept. lists what should have been built, but does not give any detail about discontinued product lines or what was actually built.
I will keep on working on the data, and get some sheets to you for a Captain Cook.

Cheers, Geoff_K

[Dr_Terry]

Hi Guys.

This stuff gets very interesting, I have a lot of these types of documents as well, unfortunately for later models though.

One thing i've observed, is that many trim & colour combinations appear in engineering documents, but never make it past the prototype stage & into production. The most reliable info is from actual cars that were sold retail or from the parts books. GM-H didn't sell any cars to the public that you couldn't get parts for, from day 1. Most of the cars with 'SPEC' trim numbers etc are ex-GM-H cars sold 2nd hand out the back door like the FJ station wagon prototype.

As Geoff K said there are many large gaps in exterior combination numbers & interior trim numbers, these are the ones that engineering tried out, & didn't get into production.

I had a long conversation with Noel Bedford on this very topic recently. Noel worked in the design dept all his working life (from the mid '50s to the early '90s) & is credited with the naming of the original Monaro. He was saying he spent more than half his time just making up trim combinations or designs, to demonstrate to the sales dept or upper management only to have more than 50% of them rejected.

On the subject of colour 164 (Condor Yellow). Were any cars painted this colour ever sold ??

Regards.

Dr Terry.

[mcl1959]

In 15 years of looking at ID plates I have never found a Condor yellow car, but then I know there are other colours that definately did exist and I haven't found them either!
This is why I continue to look

Ken