Motor/Trans Conversion

[fcphun]

I plan to use my FC everyday to travel approx 150 km to work and back and was after some advice (approx cost) of either fitting red 186 and trimatic with lpg conversion or commodore v6 auto. Basically want reliable drivetrain and reasonable economy, power not critical but need to cruise at 110 kmh.

[RET]

This topic comes up often, and the short answer for a red conversion is about $1500-$2000 for all the bits and pieces plus labour (excluding the LPG aspect).  So the more you can do yourself, the cheaper it works out to be.

This thread here has a discussion of red conversion costs, as does this one.

cheers
RET

[classicfc]

  I agree with RET, however having been down this road before myself, you need to relise that even if you get hold of a good doner car (eg HR Prem, 186/Gbox, Disc's, heater, steering etc. nowerdays all or most of the components will need rebuilding/overhauling due to the age of parts. So unless you are into the classic style of updating/modifing a early holden I would check out going further with a C/dore V6 & later running gear. There are various kits available & the end result will last longer, (should be reliable) & add more value to your car. The cost is comparable & if you are into performance will leave a Red/Blue/Black 6 cly behind. Otherwise get a bargain that is already done.

[fcphun]

I have been given estimates of around $5000 - $6000 to do the conversion to 186 plus trimatic, is this in the ball park. If I went v6 I would prefer ecotec as I have owned both early and later v6 commodores and found a huge difference in the vibration and noise which would no doubt be increased in the FC.

[classicfc]

The later 3.8 V6 EFI would be my choice also. I am embarking on a similar project with my latest EK & am collecting the stuff/info I need so your $6.000 will get you a long way using the latter running gear. Half of it will cover the Steering (assuming your thinking Rack & pinnion) wiring & engine/trans kit.  By the time you get the Eng/Trans & update the brakes along with the other Engineering requirements wipers/unleaded fuel etc your $6000.00 is gone.
Above all the above it is labour thats a killer so if you are able to do most of the work yourself it will save you $$$.

Check out Pat Gardner's Site for some great info & they also have prices.
Pat Gardner V6 Conversion Specialist
Moree, NSW, Australia
Tel: 02 67511243
http://www.v6conversions.com.au/holden.html

Also give Castlemaine Rod shop a call
Tel (03) 5472 2853
http://www.rodshop.com.au/index.htm
Rod Hadfield has been around for years & has various kits.
The best info then is on this site & over the years has covered most situations/needs a Early Tin head would need.....enjoy

[nicko]

the red with trimatic conv should not be anywhere near $6000,good red motor and trimatic should set you back around $600 if you by an unregistered VB-VH commodore from trading post,then the disc brake front end,plus new ball joints and front tongue welded on,i cant sell my set up which includes motor and box for $600 the lot so there must be plenty around Melbourne Sydney and Adelaide,even better buy an old HR with good running gear and you will have just about everything you need except tail shaft and gearbox crossmember.and an EH sump

[fcphun]

Thanks for all the info. I have also been in touch with CRS and they were very helpful. I guess it is work in progress and a few decisions to be made.

Thanks again

[surferboy]

gday fcphun,
ask 100 people whats the best conversion and you'll get 100 different answers !
i'm about to rip the old grey out of my FC,  i now tow a caravan with the grey & a 2speed powerglide but it's underpowered & keeps breaking down so its time for an upgrade.it already has hr front with torana discs
the two quotes i have (from mark b in mandurah w.a.)
$3700.   commodore blue 202
              trimatic auto
              heavy duty radiator
              tailshaft, exhaust....etc....all done finished
              & legal
$9950.   vn v6 & autotrans,  crossmember,chassis kit,computer harness , radiator etc etc.....all done & legal.
i will get extra work done so these prices will go up (carpets ,b&m shifter, and the usual problem of finding unknown hiccups until you start pulling things apart.)
the v6 would be nice but i havent won lotto yet. i dont have any mechanical skills so i have to pay mark to do ll my work for me.this way i know i'm getting a good safe legal conversion.
hope this is of some intrest to you

[nicko]

there outrageous prices especially as you already have a powerglide and HR disc front end fittedyou should be able to pick up a good holden 6 for under $250 if you buy an old rusty commodore.id seriously start looking around for someone else ,,also wreckers 2 years ago charged around $2300 for a vn or vp motor and box but nowadays you can get them from wreckers for around $750-$1000

[fccool59]

there are alot of VN's going for $500-$600 complete, but they are the harsher rougher motor, i think the ecotech has roller rockers standard to help it run smoother but i could be wrong, it also has a improved manifold but ecotechs will cost you more. Although the v6 has heaps of power in either form I still prefer a red. nearly every second car you hear drive past is a commodore v6 and the hi tech red 6 is now a vintage classic, its funny when you get these young cops and they look under the bonnet at a red motor and ask if everything is original.
a red with a alloy timing gear should be reliable enough, if you dont do that 150 k's in bumper to bumper put in a 2.78 diff centre or a 3.08 and a five speed and you will probably go easy on the fuel, maybe even less than V6

[oldgmh]

I have gone the 202 trimatic route on my EK and it works really well.  Hooked up the auto through the column so it all looks stock from the outside - just goes a hell of a lot better - and could easily tow a caravan like yours.
I used a donor HQ for motor, gearbox and 3.36 lsd and sourced HR steering, front and rear ends elsewhere. Got an EH sump and pickup from Slim.  
The only change I would make now is to get a 3.08 diff centre to replace the 3.36 for more relaxed highway cruising.
Total red motor conversion cost was around $3500 which includes $2000 labour for a guy to do most of the work.
 
In Qld, a V6 conversion also requires a collapsible steering column, heater, demister and 2 speed electric wipers to be legal.  A rack and pinion steering system is not legally required but is almost always fitted to help the conversion.  All in all - a lot more work and expense.
If going for a V6 then definately go for the series 2 engine or later as they have a lot less NVH. (noise, vibration, harshness).  If going for a ecotec or later then make sure the computer matches the engine and gearbox as some are not interchangeable from year model to different year .model
Just depends what you want as the end product.

[RET]

The prices quoted don't strike me as outrageous at all.  If earlee's conversion, which is more or less the same cost him $3500, then a couple of hundred extra when you consider freight costs to WA doesn't sound unreasonable.

Surferboy has already said he's not in a position to do the work himself, and is prepared to pay someone to do it.  As far as I'm concerned it's better to spend a little bit too much but get a proper job done, than spend too little and have to do things over again.  And there is a difference between a reco/warrantied motor and a $250 trading post special.

For example, I recently had a reco 186 motor put in Faecal, a drive-in, drive-out proposition from BM Higginbottom.  Cost me about $1900, and I'm happy.  Sure I could have rebuilt the 186 I had, but the parts and assorted bits and pieces required wouldn't give you any change out of a grand.  Put something in not quite right and you could spend that again fixing it.  In any case, my time is not worth nothing, and getting BMH to do it means it has a 3 year, 100,000K warranty to boot.

Now I already had a legal 186 in it, so that's all that was required.  When you're talking about a grey to red conversion, and you start adding up all the fiddling to make things fit, work right together and be legal, you can easily spend $2000 on labour.  At $50 an hour, that's one man week.  When I did a red motor conversion to Dad's FC a couple of years ago (don't ask why it was necessary :-/), it took 3 of us 10 hours the first day, and two of us about 7 the second.  (3 x 10) + (2 x 7) = 44 hours.  And none of us were newbies, either.

So a drive-in drive-away legal red+trimatic conversion for $3700 sounds pretty good to me.

cheers
RET

[nicko]

thats fine from scratch,you seem to forget hes already got a HR front end and a powerglide auto so nearly all the conversion (read hard bits)has  already been done,and W.A. been just as car mad as the other states means if he shops around im sure he can do a lot better than whats been quoted,also im quite sure other members of club in WA would be able to steer him in the right direction.as at least one of them would have done the red conversion themself,////by the way i was reading a pamphlet in the sunday mail from the other week that had Commodore VN motors for $500.vp$550 VR$750 and VT $950 so they at least have dropped in price quite dramatically in the last year,even adding freight of $500 (worst case scenario) i would almost stake my life on it that the near$10,000 quote was including a motor heaps more than these prices as lots of shops will take two bites of the cherry.

[RET]

Ah no, actually I think it's an apples for apples comparison.  Dad's FC already had HR f/e and we kept the crash-box.  44 man hours is how long it took to get the busted grey out and put the red in, including all the panel removal/refitting.  Things like adjusting the accelerator linkage at the back of the motor so that the fan doesn't foul the radiator all take time, and if time is money, then the price for the red conversion sounds reasonable.  I'm in no position to comment on the cost of a V6 conversion having never attempted it.  Have you?  I'd hazard a guess that the cost of the block is only a portion of the overall bill, though.

By the way, the quote is from a fellow club member.

As John Ruskin famously said:

"It's unwise to pay too much, but it's worse to pay too little.
When you pay too much, you lose a little money - that is all.
When you pay too little, you sometimes lose everything,
because the thing you bought was incapable of doing the thing it was bought to do.
The common law of business balance prohibits paying a little and getting a lot - it can't be done.
If you deal with the lowest bidder,
it is well to add something for the risk you run.
And if you do that,
you will have enough to pay for something better."

cheers
RET

[nicko]

my wife and i took one weekend to drop a red motor into an FC sedan in 1982 using the original grey gearbox and rediator ( i know the radiator would be time consuming) if you had to cut and shut for larger one,we had the EH sump fitted with all new gaskets the previous week end along with a Yella Terra head,and extractors when finished we drove car to muffler shop to get pipe matched up to extractors,all this was done with limited experience and basic tools plus an arc welder for the engine mounts. after last email i spoke to mate who just moved here from W.A. and he siad to tell him to go to Wanneroo (not sure of spelling) and get quotes from a few different shops,while engine was out we knocked the firewall rib join flat where accelerator rod usually touches causing jam ,the job was made a lot easier by having a look at what a couple of others had done and speaking to them about what little hiccups they had.i have always done most work myself due to not much money but in a shop with all the right gear and having all parts needed for person doing job it can save you quite a bit of money,especially costly if shop has to find all parts by chasing around   for them.and no Ret cheaper does not mean poor quality,if you are well prepared .

[nicko]

prices like that and the other posts about panel and paint $9000 are for bottomless pockets, going by your recomendations Ret of whats fair and reasonable we would have to spend  upwards of $20,000 for any nice FE-FC,if thats not elitest then what is,lots of owners of old holdens have built very nice cars for less than $8000 all up plus original price of average  car needing work with original running gear

[RET]

Strange that, as your 'outrageous prices' response immediately follows surferboy's post about his $3700 quote and makes reference to it.  It seems to me with your introduction of $9000 paint-jobs - something I've never ventured an opinion on, BTW - is exactly "picking out bits to suit an argument".

And anyway, who the hell are you to accuse me of elitism?  What makes you think I have bottomless pockets?  Your theory appears to be that this hobby is only suitable for those who can do it themselves.  Of course it's cheaper that way.  But if you can't do that for whatever reason - skill, time, space, equipment and so on - and you'd rather pay someone else to do it for you, then that's fine too.  But you get nothing for nothing, so you have to factor in payment for that specialist's time.  Specialisation is, after all, how we got out of the caves.  I don't doubt that it would cost $20,000 to have someone else build a car for you.  Doesn't mean I think that's necessary, though.  Where do you get that idea from?

You're confusing DIY costs with market rates because you would never pay someone to do it for you.

I do not think that surferboy is getting ripped off at $3700.  I never suggested $6000 was reasonable though, again you're cherrypicking bits of the thread to suggest that I have said things I have not.

[nicko]

i do pay others for work i cant do, or dont have time to do.
i also get a few quotes for all work and it has saved me from a few dollars to over $2000 in one instance. each time , i ring around or go and see a few places first.
i would think its been sensible, not a scrooge like your making me out to be.
i always get upset when i see people been overcharged,and only wanted them to shop around a bit.
if that upsets you then ban me from forum,.
cheers Nick

[JB]

Boys, Boys... Sounds to me like the written word has again got the better of us...

With my Van I have done all of the work myself, first car I have ever done!!! Total cost $30,000 Lot of dollars and a lot of effort over three years for an ecotec V6, but the most important part that I enjoyed was the process of doing it.

The main thing that i can see from any rebuild is to pay what you the individual are happy to pay and then enjoy the result... If you stuff up and don't get it right, then sometimes you have to pay again... Thats life, I know i made a few blews along the way that cost me more money than it should, but we all learn from the experience. I know i have and if I can help anyone avoid the mistakes I made then I will.

In the end everyone has an opinion, but we have to take a step back form the screen sometimes and realise that opinion given are not meant to be taken personally. I have been drawn in once before also and then regretted having typed what I did.

Beers all round hey!!

See you at the Nats.
Jason

[RET]

Nicko,

I'm not making you out to be a scrooge.  You wouldn't pay someone else to do this particular conversion, that's clear from your previous posts.  Because of that, I think you underestimate the billable hours involved.  I have made no comment whatsoever about anything else you might contract out.

I find your accusation of elitism extremely disagreeable and I take it personally, but in both senses of that phrase.  The fact that I am the moderator is irrelevant, and frankly the implication that I would ban someone just because they disagreed with me is insulting.  Voltaire and all that.

Jason,

You're probably right.  Nothing good is going to come from continuing this any further.