LEAD REPLACEMENT PETROL PRICES

[fccool59]

I remember seeing on the news that there would be extra tax on leaded petrol to encourage people not to pollute the air with lead. We were given a increase of 2c per litre but soon I noticed that it was 3c.
now we have lead replacement petrol and it seems to have increased even more. If we no longer have lead why do we have to pay more?
Also it is very rare that they advertise the RON for LRP were as unleaded and premium unleaded just about always have the octane number. This also varies from different service stations as my car will ping like hell on BP premium but pulls nice and strong with shell premium.
I went to a service station the other day with a real cheap price posted up on the sign but when I went to put in super it said 93.9, I then later in the afternoon went to a servo advertising a higher price but when I went to put super in it was 91.9
Is there still a set difference for super and unleaded or is it up to the service station to decide how much extra to charge for super.
Looks like now I will have to ignore the signs out the front and go in and check the pump.
On the other hand I guess that when you see a servo on a corner with a red light you can cut through the servo, slow down at the pump and then drive off. when you get pulled over you can say that you wanted to see how much the fuel costs.
I think at that first servo (independant)the difference was about 8c were as the second (BP) was only about 4c extra.
I have tried running unleaded but it pings constantly, the super and some premiums arent much better and the shell goes well but is about 9c dearer than ULP.
I have heard of cars running for 15 years on unleaded and LPG with a little extra valve wear and no major damage with no added lubricants. I would imagine that if you occasionally ran some lube with your fuel that a standard grey would ge well on any ULP since they were only designed to run on standard anyway but with a heavily shaved head on a hot red its a bit of a bitch on ULP, especailly taking off, going up hills and overtaking on the freeway.
does anyone know the RON our fuel supliers offer for LRP?, is there still a set minimum?
are we paying more for fuel so we will buy new cars and pay even more tax buying them?
has the goverment cought on to the fact that we spend less tax on maintaning our old cars than if we had new ones.
By that I mean like last year I got a stuffed master cylinder, it cost me $12.00 to get it good as new, the other week the master cylinder went in our 93 calais and I got a price for $355.00 for a master cylinder, I was going to kit it but everyone recomended against kitting these cylinders and even if I did it would be $120.00 for a kit, thats exactly ten times the cost of the FC's kit, lots of GST there ay.
I learnt the hard way that modern cars are silly expensive mistakes but this fuel thing seems silly too.
I have read some pretty convincing evidence that unleaded is dangerous. It has a higher level of benzene wich breaks down your imune system, i dont know how much benzene is in the new LRP but there was a much lower amount in leaded than unleaded. If you are exposed to unleaded too much you could end up with something very simular to aids.
I have also read several times that the major cuase of high lead levels in blood was from paint and not exhaust fumes. As for car emissoins and the ozone layer, aparently leaves and animals are a bigger threat to to ozone layer than cars becuase stuff like cow shit and decomposing leaves let of more ozone harming gases.
Why dont people have to pay more tax on there land rates for having too many trees.
funny thing is that alot of the biggest critics of car emissions drive smokey old kombis in wich they couldnt be bothered changing their rings.
We are in a time now were those who cant afford a new car will by a car like a camry, VN, VL, EA etc wich are all unleaded any way, alot of pre 86 cars now on the road are classics and charging more for fuel isnt going to get them of the road so what is the reason for the constant LRP price hikes.
What does LRP offer, what extra lubrication properties does it feature?, what is its RON?is it worth it?
The other day I went to a servo in blacktown to fill up, I pulled in and got out but noticed I was at the wrong pumps, I then turned the car around and reversed in the over side, the guy at the counter was looking at me funny, I noticed there were no LRP/Super pumps so I did a big screechy and took of to display my disaproval of his modern car only service. I could have filled up on premium but I was pissed that they dont worry about older cars any more.
Is there any one who works with fuel that can fill me in?

[fcfromscratch]

Hi fccool59,

I can probably answer some of the things you raise as issues.  I work at the BP Refinery in WA in the section that plans the refinery from crude receipt to product manufacture and despatch.  I'm quite familiar with product specs and qualities.  Where my knowledge of fuels is sorely lacking is in the "amazing and wonderful" things that Marketing do.....

In 1986 when Aust went unleaded, it was not lead as a pollutant that drove it, but the fact that the new ADR's could only be met by having catalytic convertors to reduce emissions with the existing engine technology.  Unfortunately, Pb is a poison to most catalysts and so Pb in fuel had to be removed for fuel for cars made after Jan 1, 1986.  Also, to incentivise consumers to reduce leaded fuel consumption (and increase the tax take), the govt arranged for a 2c per litre extra tax on leaded.

In Jan 2000 in WA we went to all unleaded fuels and were the "testing ground" for LRP.  I was involved in the formulation of the first fuels and specifications....but it was basically just higher octane components without the Pb....we had gradually reduced the Pb in Super petrol from 0.85 g/litre to 0.07 g/litre during 1996 - 1999, and in Jan 2000 took it out altogether.  This experience was the basis for the roll-out of LRP in the other states later on.

As for the pricing of LRP, when it was introduced in WA, it was deliberately priced higher at the forecourts.  It is a more expensive thing to produce the higher octane required to make the fuel to 96 octane without Pb.  As a general rule it is about 1 to 2c/litre more expensive to make it over ULP......and leaded super was essentially ULP with the appropriate amount of Pb to make the octane high enough.  But 3 - 4 c/litre is mark-up.

(continued....)

[fcfromscratch]

(continued....)
The octane rating of LRP is 96.0 minimum.  PULP, on the other hand, has different octane ratings for different companies.  Two of the companies have a minimum of 96.0 for PULP (same as for LRP) and the other two have 95.0 as the minimum, as long as its NOT being used for LRP.  There's a logistics issue that says you only need to stock one grade for PULP/LRP combined and add valve seat additive at the tanker loading gantry if you specify 96 octane for PULP as well.  You should find out from your servo what they sell as it's probably not appropriate for me to mention which companies are lower PULP octane...but BP is one of the two that have higher PULP octane.  However, if you run a red 6, these engines were designed for 98 octane leaded petrol.....so running 96 LRP or 95 PULP with  "valvemaster additive" means you're short on octane and it will likely "ping".....better would be the 98U grades with valve seat additive.....but it costs even more to make and is priced accordingly.

There is a lot of anecdotal evidence that LRP as a fuel is bad and it runs lousy in holden engines.  The fact is that the fuel is a better quality fuel, but it won't keep well in a vented fuel tank.  The difference is that it is made out of predominantly more heavy components and the boiling range of the fuel is heavier.  This makes for poorer cold start performance.  As it sits in old cars that get used once a week or once a month, the light ends that are present, vaporise off and leave an even heavier, poorer performing fuel.  Secret is to have a non-vented fuel tank (not the techology we typically see on these cars) or buy little and often as you need it.  Keeping it in sealed jerry cans should suffice.  This "heavy" aspect of LRP was "discivered" early on in WA's introduction and a new specification point to control the lightness of the fuel for better performance was introduced.  This is called Driveability Index.  ULP is very light fuel and has no trouble making this spec point.  PULP/LRP can be borderline....but the 98U grades can be very difficult to make in the summer time when lower volatility is working against the lightness that's required to meet driveability.

Occasionally running valve seat additive is sufficient for most holden cast head engines....say one in two tanks or one in three....but any is better than none.

As BP doesn't have a refinery in Sydney and most of the Bris refinery's product goes into the Bris market, the BP petrol is supplied ex Mobil/Shell terminals in NSW, depending on the terminal hosting arrangement in each of the coastal ports.  So the BP fuel should not be so different to other companies fuels, ULP or LRP.  However, my understanding is that the NSW/Vic terminals are where the bulk of any motor spirit imports come to, so if the fuel is being imported, who knows who gets what at which terminals...there would be no particular pattern, just fill the tanks that are empty at the time....

The bad news for old car drivers (that is, drivers of old cars!) is that LRP is being phased out altogether over the next few years.....exact timetable not known, but its life as a fuel grade offer is limited.  In the future (say 2006 - 2008), there will be a 95 octane unleaded and a 98 octane unleaded.  Users of old cars will need to carry out their own valve seat additive addition to fuel or get their engine heads modified to suit the use of the unleaded high octane grades.

Have a read of the article on LRP in the NSW clubs Tech pages.....

cheers....Brad

[Shayne]

Brad,
Thanks for the explanation.  As you say, who knows what we are getting most times anyway, due to different refineries/independants etc.  Any fuel is better than no fuel.  I often wonder (like everyone else) what I should be putting in the tank.
I have access to LRP, Premium unleaded, unleaded & avgas.  I genuinely believe that my 'warm' grey in the FC wagon runs better on avgas.  I can tell the difference if I run it on anything else.  Not too sure about the stock grey in the FE sedan.  Have tried LRP, PULP, & ULP.  Have also put valve seat additive in tank at fill up.  Can't really notice any difference.  Haven't bothered to try avgas.  Would that be a waste of time?  Avgas has been progressively getting its octane rating reduced also, I believe.  
Any fuel is better than pushing the car.  I think if you work on hard facing the valve seats next time you rebuild/replace the engine, its probably the best option.  

Has anyone had any experience with the inline lead additive cartridges that mount near the carby & allow you to just used unleaded?  Can't think of the name now, but there is one such item which the company guarantees to the extent that they will rebuild your engine if required as a result of only using ULP through their inline lead cartridge.  They are available at Repco for about $200.  Don't look very good in a stock engine bay though.

Sh*t Leon, since you've been typing your yarns in, we've all started typing long winded postings instead of the usual 2 finger type

Merry Christmas to all.  Hope to catch up with a few of you in the flesh one day.

[nicko]

the only thing you should use in high comp engines is premium as it has a higher octane which has just been explained in last couple of posts,i have run all my cars ( 1968 to 1985) v8 and 6cyl that i have owned over the last 10 years on unleaded and premium unleaded with out ever having valves burn out, as for lrp i have seen engines just clog up and lose power till heads come off and nearly always see valves very blackened with lots of varnish buildup on stems and tops of pistons plus plugs always fowling up,
as for the next nightmare our little mate Johny has allowed the sugar industry to start making and or importing the valve stuffing engine destroying ETHANOL,and you thought lrp was bad.
avgas is the best gear for high performance engines with high compression ratio's and i think its always constant so doubt it has got weaker over the last few years as it has to be a high standard due to the aircraft it goes in

[fcfromscratch]

Shayne,

for your "warm" grey, the higher octane fuels (as Nicko suggests) are better...the Avgas is excellent fuel but is now illegal to use in road vehicles....

for the "stock" grey, ULP should suffice as it is a low comp engine designed to run on standard octane.

Avgas formulation remains the same, the composition can only be within certain narrow limits to meet all the demanding specification req'mts....there are hi Pb and low Pb versions.....Shell make low Pb and we make high Pb but are moving to low Pb over the next few months....and Mobil aren't making avgas at all any more, are they?

as for ethanol, at low percentages it is ok...it has the "light" qualities that are good for "clean" fuels....but has less energy content....at less than 10% in petrol, you shouldn't notice too much difference.....

cheers....Brad

[fccool59]

Remember when petrol was red.
I never really noticed much difference in the change from Leaded to LRP, at first I thought LRP was lead reduced petrol but then I noticed it was lead replacement, its also a different colour.
What really shitted me was that I have been hunting around for the best prices when ever I put fuel in but I have only recently started looking at the actual price on the bowser of LRP, as I said in my last post, I found a cheap advertised ULP price on the sign out the front but the LRP was about 8 or 9 cents dearer than the ULP.
prior to this I was under the impression that the cheaper the ULP price, the cheaper the LRP.
I went to BP at seven hills wich had a higher price on the sign out the front but the LRP was cheaper as it was only about 4c dearer per litre than ULP.
I didnt know that super was 98, I thought it would have been 96, I am running much higher compression than a standard HC red and I find it a pain in the arse to get the timming in a spot were it will be easy to drive on LRP.
I used to sometimes buy BP 100 or add octane boosters but they stoped selling the drums of one hundred and  after a while I noticed that the booster wasnt really making much difference for what it cost, I also ended up getting married and getting kids and stuff and had to use a more cost friendly way to transport the family around.
I have the most problems when I have just gone through somewere like parramatta were I had to sit in heaps of traffic, and the some winged rice burner eggs me on for a drag at the lights. and I take of leaving clouds of smoke and pinging away.
I haven't really noticed much my self but I have heard from others that LRP is filthy crap that leaves shit in your heads and stuffs your plugs and therefore they are using ULP. my car goes better on LRP than ULP, or thats what I noticed from both times I tried ULP.
I have used pulp at shell many times and been pleased with the noticable difference wich comes at a pretty dear price,(I dont mean to plug shell there and I was sure a few years ago that shell super was crap) but when ever I tried it from BP down the road here it actually seemed to ping more on PULP than the LRP so I only ever get pulp from shell now rather than experiment with all the different servo's.
Personally I think that if there isnt a set difference in price between ULP and LRP the LRP price should always be advertised, there are usually more than one slot for a price in the signs, and there is probably the same or more cars running on super than deisel or LPG.
Any way, a good thing is I suppose that fuel is cheaper now than I thought it would be by now. I remember filling my tank the night before GST came in becuase everyone said fuel would be dear once GST came in, It was pretty busy at the servo with everyone trying to get their bargain pre GST fuel @$1.01, now here we are years later and fuel is still cheaper than it was the night before we got GST.
As for keeping the fuel in the tank fresh, I never new anything about that before but I am usually running on empty or putting in fuel once or twice a day (reduces the chance of losing fuel at roundabouts) although I do tend to fill it enough to last the next couple of days(and take the roundabouts slower) on Tuesdays when petrol must be cheaper to make (LOL) Unfortunately the little tank in a FC doesnt last very long but its probably a good thing if the fuel quality doesnt keep in the tank.

About those inline lead adder thingos, do they increase octane or just add lube?
But are they phasing out LRP by uping the price?
I know octane levels would not really matter much to those with standard greys as ULP is probably like avgas in a grey compared to standard fuel.
Thanks for the info Brad, I knew there would be someone in the industry using this forum.