Harmonic balancer oil leaks

[robal]

Hello.
I have a problem with oil leaking from the harmonic balancer. The oil seal has been replaced, new cover gasket, easy sleeve on the balancer, new crank key. Timing cover aligned with aligning bush, This has been an ongoing process, all of these things that have been done have been done twice over even different harmonic balancers. Its still leaking, cant determine where its coming from, there is no oil residue from the seal area. I was told a user in this group with the name ARDIESSE recons the grey balancers. I wonder is anyone else has had this an oil leak mystery

[my8thholden]

Hi Robal ...Dont feel bad , grey motors leak oil ,full stop period ,and the balancer is one of the main areas ,Holden in my opinion could have done a lot more with crankshaft front and rear oil retention with in the motor during the life of the grey from 1948 to 1963 ..Sounds like you have done the usual procedure to stop oil leaks as have done many before you ,I took particular care with my engine ,now with 8mths of not much use ,its leaking a bit. Modern day oils are more fluid than the oils of 1950's ...I assume you have the correct timing cover for your engine ,they did change ,and you used correct gasket and sealant ,and bolts and screws ..you aligned the seal on the crank with correct tool and then fixed timing cover ,,I elected to use a dual lip seal ,it was a bit of a bugger to press in because the outer is also rubber as original seal were metal case..Sounds like you have done fair bit with balancer ..what about the timing cover itself ,is the sealing edge and strengthing band all in good order and flat ,no tiny rust pin hole ,yes they can rust ,Ripleys believe it or not .Is the seal housing undamaged ,is it not dented or moved from its original axis plane,ie some where in its life did some one replace the seal in situ ,and thump it in with a socket and lump hammer ,and therefore dent the seal housing in ,and it is not square to the crank .doesn't need much error to leak ..seals should be carefully pressed in not thumped in ..good luck Vern ..

[ardiesse]

Here I am.

Everything that Vern says.  Plus -

If you have worn main bearings, your engine will leak oil at the timing case and rear main bearing oil seals.  No exceptions.  And if you have worn piston rings, the blow-by past the rings will pressurise the crankcase, which makes the engine more prone to leak oil.

With the engine stopped, wipe your finger along the timing case oil seal at the 6 o'clock position. Is there a film of oil on your finger?  Then wipe your finger along the underside of the timing cover.  Film of oil on your finger?  If yes to either of these, you have a slow leak of oil from the timing case oil seal.

I can sell you a reconditioned harmonic balancer, but it may not cure the oil leak.

Rob

[robal]

Hi Vern.
Yes this is driving me mad, everything else on the car is perfect apart from overheating and I discovered it must run a 7 lb non recovery cap not 13 0r 15. All good now added a thermo fan in addition to the original temp now comes down to under 180.

Back to the issue, its leaking more than a few drops, if it was that it would not bother me. The fan or harmonic balancer throws it all over the place. I built the engine and has all new bits in it. Must say that was a while ago and it was only finished and licensed recently. I have a few timing covers and one is different but only to the point that the seal may run in a different position, but Ii am not totally convinced of that though, yes the support piece is fitted to the bottom of the cover. It has all the right bolts and lengths, as you know there are a mixture of long bolts, short bolts, screws and a couple of smaller diameter bolts. Machined up the alignment bush, fitted this through the seal first then on to the crank then bolted it down, have done this three times and new seals each time. Used two different harmonic balancers, ended up with both having speedy sleeves fitted and new crank key just in case it was leaking through the key. The only thing thats not new is the harmonic balancer, is the oil leaking past the sleeve or is the sleeve not in the right position. its not a long sleeve. In desperation I bought a new powerbond balancer, could not get it on as the diameter in the bore is too small. What I am going to do next is machine the seal diameter on the original balancer down and sleeve it and re machine to size, Also going to machine the bore of the new balancer to the right dimensions and try that if the original does not work again.

[robal]

Hi Rob.
I have heard about you (all good) and thanks for the contact, see what I said to Vern. The engine has only done about 50 km since build.All the parts you mentioned are new, crank grind etc, the motor runs sweet. I did wipe the bottom of the cover maybe some residue but not as much as I would have expected. Can you let me know if you have a balancer available and cost. I think I will add that to the options, cheers Rob

[geebeefc]

Hi, having owned many Holdens with grey motor, I have to agree that oil leaks are part of the deal.  I have had some cases where the oil leak appears to be timing case seal, but is actually coming from between the front engine plate ( the plate behind the timing gears with the engine mount fitting) and the block. Can be quite an extensive leak from between the block face and this plate. Just a thought. Cheers, Glenn

[Patrick_R]

Gents,
2 things in my experience of engine builds and seal replacements.

The speedy sleeve should have some kind of sealant (usually silicone) wiped inside before installing.
Of course the crank needs to be very clean before you install the sleeve.
This stops oil tracking between the speedy sleeve and crank.

The seal needs to have a good fill of GP grease in the void between the sealing lip and the front of the seal, and also a whipe on the speedy sleeve.
This lubricates the seal, and stops it from burning until oil can get to it to lubricate it.

Do we all remember soaking our leather seals in engine oil for 24 hours before installing?
This was for the same reason, lubrication, but with new nylon, neoprene plastics etc etc this of course can’t be done.

So a good lube of the seal, and the sealing area it runs against is very important.

Ric.

[robal]

Hi Ric
I am suspicious about the speedy seal, the surface was good before it was put on. Having said that I just pulled the balancer off and the speedy seal looks deformed can feel ribs on it. I think this might be the problem now. As I said earlier I am going to machine a proper bush and do away with the speedy seal then there is no possibility of oil getting under it

[robal]

Hi Glenn, I thought about the engine plate, but gaskets were all new when it was built. I have however checked for oil leaks from this area and down to the engine mount. There is no evidence that oil is coming from behind the plate, its more forward from that, getting back to the timing case harmonic balancer seal, as its throwing the oil around that would not happen with the engine plate I think.

[robal]

Hi Rob, Can you give me a price on the reconditioned balancer please, use my email if you wish robal@iinet.net.au Thanks Rob

[ardiesse]

Rob,

More questions.

Is an oil slinger fitted in front of the crankshaft timing gear?

You say the harmonic balancer flings oil.  Is there an oily track on the front subframe and under the bonnet in the plane of the brankshaft pulley?  More finger-work needed.  Wipe your finger along the rear of the crankshaft pulley.  Oily film?  Wipe your finger along the front of the balancer.  Oily film there?  Are there radial oil stains on the front of the harmonic balancer?

Sometimes they leak oil past the keyway out the front of the crankshaft hub.  The problem is made worse if the balancer isn't driven all the way "home" onto the timing gear.  And since the crank's been reground, it's not unknown that the crankshaft snout will have the imprints of the chuck jaws on it.

Grey motors went through several design upgrades to improve the oil sealing at the front of the motor.  What's the letter prefix on the engine number?  It'd be good to know what year motor you have.

Rob

[Patrick_R]

Be careful not to make the bush/sleeve to thick to overload the seal crush.

I have had great success with speedy sleeves.
The just need to be done properly.
Probably one of the best inventions in the automotive world.
The next is the 2 piece clutch brake for Roadranger transmissions 

Please lube the new seal before installing.

Good luck.

Ric.

[robal]

Hi Ric
Thanks for the points on the speedy seal, yes any sleeve I make will be to the standard size

[robal]

Hi Rob
There is oil being slung on the subframe not the bonnet. The slinger has been fitted. The balancer is on all the way. There are no marks on the crank, actually polished the crank diameter and the balancer bore before fitting. There is no oil being slung from the front of the balancer so guess its not coming through via the crank. New key was fitted. I mentioned earlier I have taken the balancer off again and the speedy  sleeve looks deformed with ribs evident. The balancer was well prepared beforehand. Cheers Rob

[robal]

Hi Rob
The engine number is J60111 Thanks Rob

[ardiesse]

The J blocks are the good ones.

It sounds like you're doing everything right.

You don't by any chance have a vacuum gauge, do you?  If you can block the engine breather pipe, remove the oil filler cap and tape the hole over securely (or seal it up with your palm), pull the dipstick and connect the vacuum gauge to the dipstick tube (because EJ motor), start the engine, give it a good rev and note the vacuum gauge reading . . .

One of the FB/EK forum guys, a diesel mechanic by trade, and the kind of bloke who did everything exactly right, was plagued by oil leaks from his recently reconditioned grey motor.  He finally tracked down the cause: excessive exhaust valve stem-to-guide clearance.  Exhaust gases were leaking back through the valve guides into the rocker cover, and creating crankcase over-pressure.  The over-pressure forced oil out of every seal in the motor.

Rob

[robal]

Hi Rob
I understand what you are saying. I dont have a vacuum gauge. The head was reconditioned with new valves, seats for unleaded new valve stem guides and seals. I can only assume the clearances were correct. If the couple of things that I am going to do dont work then I will do what you say. If there was pressure build up Ii would have thought there would be leaks from other seals. I am thinking now what other seals

[my8thholden]

Rob ..I find that engine with " over pressure " causing oil leaks very interesting ,actually how that can even happen ,surely that pressure would escape to atmosphere via the crankcase breather pipe ,and to some degree out the oil filler cap breather at same time  ..excessively worn exhaust valves stems and guides usually results in sticky valves due to carbon build up ,inlet valves usually result in oil being burnt in with the fuel ,and evidenced deposits on spark plug insulator ..keep well Vern .

[Harv]

One of the FB/EK forum guys, a diesel mechanic by trade, and the kind of bloke who did everything exactly right, was plagued by oil leaks from his recently reconditioned grey motor.  He finally tracked down the cause: excessive exhaust valve stem-to-guide clearance.  Exhaust gases were leaking back through the valve guides into the rocker cover, and creating crankcase over-pressure.  The over-pressure forced oil out of every seal in the motor.

Mr Allardyce is a clever bugger... I learnt quite a bit from his grey motor adventure. Like most of us, he started out with the assumption that the machine shop had done a good job on the headwork. Sometimes the reality is a little different.

A good read over on the FB/EK forum. The link below (page 20) is where he finished. Scroll back as far as you need to to understand his troubleshooting.

http://www.fbekholden.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=21369&p=228885&hilit=valve#p228885

Cheers,
Harv

[robal]

Harv, Further to my oil leak drama, I machined a new ss collar for the oil seal on the harmonic balancer. All good and fits nice. Start up and oil is coming from the centre of the harmonic balancer I assume between the crank shaft and balancer bore, so took it off again and oil pored out of the seal. I saw a post from you on another site about high level of oil in the timing cover. The oil in this one must have been up level with the top of the crank. You mentioned about a blocked oil return at the bottom of the timing cover area. Where about it it as I cant see it?