Starting tips for grey motor

[Chrome Dome 1959]

Hi all,
I have a 1959 FC with original grey motor, starter motor, carby, etc. Am finding it is taking a long time to get it started from cold. Usually turns over for 1-2 minutes until it starts. Once it does start though no problem. I will use full choke for the first 20 seconds then cut back to half way until it starts. I have tried with full choke until it starts but doesn't make any difference. Any other suggestions or tips/tricks on how to start it faster? I have been weary of pumping the accelerator pedal as I don't want to flood the carby. Thanks in advance.

[Harv]

If you drive the car every day, does it still take forever to start, or is it only if it has been sitting for a few days/weeks?

It sounds like the carb float bowl is empty. They are atmospherically vented, and will "dry out" over time (some take days, others weeks). When you start, the poor fuel pump has to reprime the float bowl before the engine gets fuel. That takes 30s or so of cranking. Choke won't help.

To check, get your car into a state where you would not expect it to start. Before your start it:
a) check the fuel pump glass bowl. Is if full (or nearly full) of fuel?
b) Remove the air cleaner, and take the 6 screws out of the carb air horn cover (float bowl lid). Gently remove the lid. Is there fuel in the float bowl?

Cheers,
Harv

[fastjbav6]

Where are you located?
I might be able to come over and have a look for you this weekend.

Kind Regards Seb

[Chrome Dome 1959]

It isn't a daily driver. I Try and give it a run once a week but sometimes once a fortnight. I live in Perth WA.

[Fraze]

One of my cars gets only occasional use and i got tired of nearly flattening the battery on its first start after no use so I fitted a small electric pump. The pump I used is an AIRTEX. This type of pump is rotary which means that fuel can flow through it when it is not operating. I have mine on a switch so that I can use it to prime the carby and once the engine is started I turn it off and let the engine run on the original mechanical pump. Even after not starting the car for 2 - 3 months, priming the carb this way gives you immediate starts.
The Airtex pump I use in model E8012. Cheers, Fraze

[KFH]

If my car has been sitting for several weeks I pull the choke fully out, turn the motor for a few seconds to pump fuel into the carby, pump the accelerator a few times and presto it starts easily.  If I use it weekly full choke a few pumps on the accelerator and it starts almost immediately.

Keith

[Chrome Dome 1959]

I have a newer mechanical fuel pump without the glass bowl (see picture).
Fraze, can you please post a picture of your airtex pump and where it is located in relation to the fuel pump? Thanks.

[Fraze]

Hi Antman, sorry I haven't worked out how to post pictures on this site, however if you Google Airtex E8012 a picture should come up. This pump can be fitted in your fuel line anywhere between the tank and the original pump. Auto Surplus in Melbourne are the distributors in Vic, I don't know about the other states. However if you want to buy one you can go into the USA Ebay Auto site and there will be plenty for sale. You should land one here for less than $100. the first one I fitted, 20 years ago, is still going strong. Cheers, Fraze.

[Chrome Dome 1959]

Thanks Fraze,
I suspect there may be an issue with the fuel pump as when driving at high speed (above 60mph) the engine starts to "starve" for fuel, then when I stop after high speed running at lights, etc, the engine stalls at idle speed and needs re-starting.

[ardiesse]

A couple of thoughts for you -

Don't be too quick to blame the fuel pump.  Your symptoms sound a lot like an air leak on the inlet side of the fuel pump, or a restriction in the fuel line or hose between tank and pump.

Take a look at the glass bowl on the fuel pump when the engine's running.  Little bubbles (beer or champagne size, depending on your taste) mean that the bowl gasket's not sealing properly.  Usually accompanied by a slow leak of fuel around the bowl.  Larger bubbles coming up through the inlet (a smallish rectangular hole) mean that there's an air leak, most likely from the braided hose.  They're pretty notorious for cracking the rubber inner hose, right near the crimp fittings, but without leaking fuel.  If you're brave, take the fuel hose off, block one end off with your finger, and apply the other end to your lips and suck.  Flex the hose through a full range of motion while you suck.  You'll get petrol-mouth, but you'll also find out if the hose leaks air.

Disconnect the fuel hose from the pump (best to do this before the leak test), then put the free end of the hose into a soft drink bottle.  Jack the back of the car up a foot or so.  Fuel should run out of the hose into the bottle at a fair rate.  If it doesn't, either you're out of fuel, or there's a restriction in the tank or the fuel pipe.

Rob

[Chrome Dome 1959]

Thanks Rob for the Info. I suspect you are correct that there is air getting in somewhere but from what I can see its not through the fuel line. The previous owner installed a valve saver fluid injection set up whereby the fluid line from the bottle is connected into the vacuum advance line running between Carby and distributor. An air bleed system has also been fitted to prevent air lock so fluid will flow out of the bottle. Interestingly the fluid has stopped being injected out of the bottle since this problem happened so I suspect that could be the problem. I will disconnect the injector tube from the bottle at the Vacuum advance line and seal it off to see if that makes any difference, otherwise will take it to my mechanic. I have attached photos of the fuel pump and valve saver fluid injector & bleed system. 

[ardiesse]

@Antman,

Looked at the photos and the alarm bells are starting to go off.

You've got an adjustable main jet, and it looks to me, based on the fuel bowl vent valve, the reinforcing piece on the front of the carby, and the shape of the throttle lever, that your carburettor is from an HQ.  The Bakelite spacer 'tween carburettor and manifold has been removed, and I'd say the mounting studs on the inlet manifold have been replaced with shorter ones to compensate for the lack of spacer.

Cast on the left hand side of the carburettor's throttle body, there should be a three or four letter code, followed by a number.  What is it?  And also, on the fuel bowl (the middle portion of the carburettor) there should be a little round symbol with a fraction.  It'll probably be 1-3/32 or 1-5/32.  What is it?  And to be super-helpful, the reinforcement should have stamped on it a six-digit code, starting with 23-3.  What is it?

Executive summary:  I think your carburettor jetting is not right.  Probably the standard carby was changed over for a bigger one at the same time as the extractors went on, and the adjustable main jet is not helping matters.

Can you beg, borrow or steal a standard grey motor Stromberg (BXOV-1), with 1-1/32" venturi, and a No. 51 main jet, and try it out on your engine?

I'd love to help, but I'm over t'other side.

Rob

[Chrome Dome 1959]

Hi Rob,
Thanks for your response. Photos attached of numbers I think you were asking for: P24082; 1-5/32; 2376050. Hope this helps.

[ardiesse]

@Antman,

Where do I start?  Deep breath . . .

Your choke cable's bent, and so your choke's only there for decoration.  Loosen the screw on the choke lever, and pull the cable out of the choke lever.  Then undo the clamp holding the choke cable outer to the carby, and pull the cable assembly free of the retainer.  Get two pairs of pliers, one on each end of the ninety-degree bend in the inner cable, and carefully straighten the cable.  The cable's quite hard steel, so it'll put up a fair amount of resistance.  Go gently, and you'll straighten the cable without putting any kinks in it.

Gently move the end of the choke lever towards the front of the car until it stops.  It'll be at about the 4 o'clock position.  Feed the cable assembly through the retaining clamp, and then feed the inner cable through the clamp on the choke lever, but don't tighten the screw yet.  When you have maybe 1/2" of choke cable coming out of the clamp on the choke lever, push the choke button fully home on the dash.  If there's more than 1/2" of cable outer sticking out in front of the retaining clamp, gently pull the cable outer back, but not so much that the inner disengages from the choke lever.  Tighten the retaining clamp, then tighten the screw on the choke lever, but not so much that it kinks the cable.

Pull the choke all the way out.  Check that the choke butterfly is completely closed.  Now push the choke back in, all the way.  The choke butterfly should be completely open, and the choke lever should be in the 4 o'clock position.  After you've done all this, there's a good chance that the engine will idle too slow or die when the choke's pushed in.  You might have to bump the idle speed up.

Now, carburettor.  If your carburettor was a human, it'd have a long scar across its forehead, and a bolt coming out each side of its neck.    It has been Frankensteined, unfortunately.  The top two-thirds are from a 179, 186 or 202, because the venturi size is 1-5/32; and the bottom third is from a 149 or 161.  Unfortunately the code that I really want to see is partially obscured by the stud and nut, but it appears to be BXUV-2.

You've got an adjustable main jet.  The rules for setting an adjustable main jet are: Turn the adjusting screw inwards in small increments until your exhaust valves burn.  Then remove and overhaul cylinder head.  Then turn adjusting screw 1/4 turn outwards, and that should be just about right.

This advice is not meant to be taken seriously.  Rather, it illustrates what happens when things go wrong.

I would really, really suggest that you buy a BXOV-1 Stromberg (the right one for the car).  But your inlet manifold may have been modified to take the later carburettor.  What size spanner fits the attaching nuts?  If you fit a 10 mm or 3/8" open-end spanner over the threaded part of the stud, is it an exact fit, or does it have more than a mm clearance on the stud?  Or you can just measure the stud size with a digital caliper, if you have one.

The correct mounting studs for a BXOV-1 are 5/16", UNF thread, and the correct nuts are 5/16" UNF, which are 1/2" AF.  The later carburettors take 3/8" UNF studs and nuts, the nuts being 9/16" AF.  If, then, your inlet manifold's been modified to take the later carby, the correct one is no longer a bolt-on replacement.  And so you'll have to track down an umolested inlet manifold.

How to do a rescue?  The first thing, in my opinion, is to ditch the adjustable main jet and find an original main jet plug.  Plus, you'll have to confirm that the main jet is a 58 (it'll probably be stamped 058).  But you'll need a main jet key to extract it.

Here's what I'd suggest:  Straighten the choke cable first, and get the choke working.  Get rid of the adjustable main jet and go back to a fixed 58 jet.  I'm awfully suspicious of the valvesaver injection setup.  Disconnect the vacuum advance pipe from the carburettor and plug the fitting, temporarily, with Blu-Tac.  If everything comes good with a working choke and fixed 58 main jet, great.  Then if you're really attached to the fuel-saver injection setup, you can reconnect it.

Rob

[Chrome Dome 1959]

Rob,
I fixed the choke cable with no result. It was all doing my head in so I took it to Perth Carburettor specialists in Perth. I barely made it there. Couldn't get above 70kph and black smoke belching out the back. Bottom line was the reconditioning originally done on the carby was a backyard job and never done properly. The guy there was excellent. Cleaned and re-conditioned the carby (which is from a 186 red motor), new plugs, lighter gauge accelerator spring, disconnected vacuum advance and it drives like new!!! So much more power so I can see to a point why the previous owner went for a bigger carby. Long term plan is to convert to twin strombergs but for the time being, it has a new lease of life!!! Now have to get used to the power and the lighter accelerator...ha ha. Thanks for all your advice.

[ardiesse]

All's well that ends well.  Now you'll be in excellent shape to drive across to the Nationals.

Rob

[Chrome Dome 1959]

No chance of me driving it all the way to Canberra mate. Wayyyy too far from Perth for a car of this quality. Trucking it via covered transport to Sydney then driving it to Canberra from there.