Judging feedback?

[Rabbitoh]

Probably not possible for a myriad of reasons, but anyone else interested in getting their car's marked "exam papers" so we know what areas to improve on for subsequent Nationals?

[RET]

Chris,

The issue is under discussion amongst the delegates. Bear in mind the forms are hand-written, so disseminating them is not a simple task.

There is no way we can publish the results in full, but we do understand people want to know how they can improve.

Leave it with me.

cheers
RET

[FC427]

That's a great idea to help people to improve the areas where they were judged low ......FC427.....

[customFC]

Judging is always a subjective thing, based on opinion and experience.
I think there is more to be gained by looking closely at the cars that won prizes and comparing them to how your own car is/was presented.
Regards
Alex

[JB]

Hey RET,

Just an idea and maybe an easier way and less subjective to criticism would be to post the criteria used by the judges... I guess this could be a checklist that the judges used and then could be used by people to make their cars better?

Not having entered any other show but when I went to Jindabyne there may be a list already available, I don't know, but I think that individual results should not be made available for the he said she said argument that may ensue. Could be bigger than Ben Hur.

Just my 2 bobs worth.

Cheers
JB

[HAD 708]

Good evening
I totaly argree with both Jason and Alex re judging issues. The judges are independently appointed by the host club and are directed if needed by state delegates or Nationals delegates {usually}. The issue re viewing of points thoughts or comments of the judges is opening in my view a HUGE hornets nest that will achieve very little. Judging by its nature is totally subjective and as such maybe entrants can leave it well alone and concentrate on entrants choice etc. A trophy in my view should be looked upon as a total bonus/surprise.
Brett 

[FC427]

I can't understand that there would be any problems showing the judges score card  seems simple to me Paint 6 out of 10 trim 2 / 10  engine bay 4 / 10  total 12 /  30 looks like I have a lot of work to do on the Ute ... I would like to think that we are all above Zeby got 6 for paint and I only got 4 my paint is better than  Zeby  I want to kill the Judge   ......FC427.....

[RET]

I've got no issue with publishing the blank forms so everyone can see what the judges used. Their instructions were taken from articles previously published about the introduction of Street Class, and I'll include that.

I'll upload these to the Nats site later on, and add a post here when it's done. Hopefully that will be a useful start. 

cheers
RET

[fe-ambo]

It would be great to see the blank scorecard.
I for one would be interested in seeing my own scorecard but can imagine that it maybe like opening a can of worms for some people.

Cheers
Paul

[FC0058]

Hi All
I agree with Jason, I will also suggest that judges change from event to event and therefore a car that was Judged to be top 10/20 @ one nationals may not make it in the next. You also have Stock, Street & Modified all competing for prizes and at Orange there were a lot of cars to be judged compared to previous nationals.

I really liked all the cars and would say that every one that attended the 13th Nationals are winners in some shape or form. What a great turn out and what a fantastic event.

Keep on motoring and preserving our Australian Motoring History going strong "See You All @ The 14th in Perth 2012"

Cheers Jim

 

[RET]

OK, there's an extensive article on the topic on the Nationals site, where you can download the blank forms used at the 13th Nationals.

I've also added some comments on the process there, for the benefit of anyone interested. There also reproduced here, for feedback.

Comments

Judging Books and Forms

The scheme for judging at the Nationals is always evolving, and this was the first time we (the NSW Club) had run a Nationals since Professional Judging had been introduced. (It was also the first Nationals to have Street Class and Authenticity as a component.)

Our Judges were enormously impressed with the book format, as it made it all but impossible to have transcription errors or "crossed wires" when it came to matching cars with forms.

However, the lesson learnt was that the judging form was too finely detailed, and there were too many cells on the form that had to be individually assigned scores. This no doubt played a part in the delay to complete the judging. A suggestion from the judges for future Nationals is to group together more of the elements, so that rather than giving separate scores for "Seats (20)", "Door Trims, Kick Panels & Trim (15)", "Headlining & Visors (10)" and "Floormats/Carpet (10)", a single score out of 55 would allow them to more quickly assess each vehicle.

Using comb-binding was also a mistake, as it made it difficult to move cars from one class to another. (The books had been printed and bound in Sydney, so late changes had to be stapled to the back of each book.) Hole-punching the sheets and putting them in a binder would have been better, as the sheets could have been moved from one to another more easily, and completed sheets removed and taken for tallying. By binding them together, we had to wait until judging was complete to get the books back from the judges and commence the tallying process.


Street Class

By and large, the introduction of Street Class was a success. A suggestion from the Judges was that perhaps Street Class should be expanded to include more of the red motor powered vehicles, leaving Modified to the extensively engineered vehicles. The delegates will ponder that for 2012.


Top 20 / Top 40

The old "Club Class" system was abandoned this year, replaced by a Summernats-style Top 20/Top 40 arrangement. I think on the whole this was quite successful, and fixed several glaring errors in the old scheme:

• Category Awards were going to cars that didn't really deserve them. The car with "Best Exterior" was undoubtedly amongst the Top 20, yet the trophy was going to a car in Club Class.
• There was a lack of understanding that "1st Place - Club Class - FE Commercial" did not necessarily mean you had the best FE Ute or Panel Van at the Nationals: perhaps there was a better one in the Top 20.
• It was a logistical nightmare for the organisers to know how many trophies would ultimately be required in Club Class once the Top 20 were taken out.

The number of vehicles in each class being judged was used to determine the proportion each class had of the Top 20 and Top 40. With 55 Stock, 26 Street and 40 Modified judged vehicles, the Top 20 were the best 9 Stock, best 4 Street and best 7 Modified vehicles, with Top 40 comprised of the next 9, 4 and 7 respectively. You could also choose to have Top X Stock, Top Y Street and Top Z Modified. We didn't, because we had already had the "TOP 20" number-plates made by the time the Top 20 / Top 40 system was endorsed by the delegates.


Authenticity

Obviously, the introduction of Authenticity as 25% of the total for Stock Vehicles had an impact on the results. Whether it tipped the results too far is something the delegates will have to consider for future Nationals. However, it is agreed that providing an incentive the maintain an unrestored car, or when it is restored, to do it in a manner faithful to the original, is an aim worth continuing with.

[mcl1959]

As the authenticity judge I think that this new facet was quite successful - I have always believed that we should try and reward efforts to keep cars in stock class original.

My comments to the delegates would be as follows;

1) More cars should move from stock to street class. Street class should not necessarily be seen as a "modified" class, but rather as a "driven" class. I hope that Graham Fuller doesn't mind if I use his car as an example - a very nice stock looking car, but regularly driven and fitted with a number of improvements such as a power brake booster, electric wipers and electric screen washers to name a few. This type of car should be in street class because the authenticity component of stock class gives it no chance of a trophy in stock but could give the top 20 a real shake in street class. There were numerous cars in stock class who would have fared better in street class.
I think if your car has radial tyres, electric wipers & a booster it should be in street class automatically.

2) I think the penalty for a respray is too high in the authenticity component. The reason we try to keep cars looking stock is so that Joe Public doesn't think that FE's & FC's came out with electric wipers etc., but a respray doesn't necessarily deceive the viewer that something he is seeing is not right. Maybe 5 points would be fairer than 20. It still wouldn't have changed the result but at least it would give the restored cars a chance of top authentic. I judged Leon Spicer's car as more authentic than the winner of the trophy but it had been resprayed so it lost 20 points straight away giving it no chance of winning.
If Leon had only lost 5 points for paint, then it may have been interesting with a more critical look.

Ken

[colt]

If you guys don't mind, I'd like to give my thoughts.

If a car has been resprayed, how can it be judged for authenticity at all? To me, authenticity is just that, as per factory or as close as considering the cars are over 50 years old.

We should be encouraging people NOT to restore their cars. Especially in the case of cars which are virtually untouched.

Personally, I don't think you have given Club class a chance. Yes, my car is in Street and it won't win any prizes in it's current form, but that's ok with me. I didn't see anything wrong with the old judging system. A top 20 or so and then some category winners. So what if you get a trophy when youre not in the top cars.

Don't forget that I have been involved with the nats with the new system. I thought it worked ok. Please don't change it without giving the existing system a chance.

Colin.

[graham_fuller]

I think the authenticity part of the judging is a good thing. Maybe the upholstery should be as original,same as the headlining, lose the sympathetic side and as Ken stated the repaint should have a lesser point score. I can't see any reference Ken to brake booster in the mechanical side of the authenticity form, or am i missing something? Maybe as Ken stated a larger number of cars should have swapped into Street Class mine included. Judging in these sorts of events will always be controversial in one way or another, but overall I think the results were good.
Cheers,
Graham

[NosFEratu]

perhaps consideration should be given to the introduction of a "Survivor" Class - http://www.sportscarmarket.com/articles/archives/1044

[RET]

I don't think it's fair to say that Club Class hasn't been given a chance, we used Top Ten / Club Class at Jindabyne, Phillip Island and Mt Gambier. Effectively, the Top 40 is the old Club Class. What has been dropped is the breaking up of all the non-Top cars into Passenger/Commercial, Sedan/Wagon and all that. That was just untenable with the introduction of Street Class.

I was sure there was an article on authenticity on the official website, but can't find it now. I've written so much on the subject, maybe it was just in the delegates' forum. The nub of it though, is that authenticity doesn't necessarily mean original. I've taken the guts of the original proposal from the delegates' forum and added it to the Rules and Policies section of the Nats site.

Hopefully that will add some clarity to what authenticity is about. Although the judging form saw a few changes before its first use at a Nationals, the basic premise remained unchanged. It should also be noted that Authenticity was trialled at the Victorian State Titles to refine it further.

[RET]

perhaps consideration should be given to the introduction of a "Survivor" Class - http://www.sportscarmarket.com/articles/archives/1044

Thanks for posting that link, Kathi, it made for very interesting reading indeed.

[graham_fuller]

I don't want to confuse things but have we ever thought of an Authentic class and or a Concours  class?
Cheers,
Graham

[jack_fc]

I'd certainly be interested in seeing my cars judging sheet.
And for what it's worth, I think the dropping of splitting vehicles up into passenger/commercial, sedan/wagon etc is a good thing. Ditto having no FE/FC split.
I reckon the only further improvement needed to this nats system is further fine-tuning of the existing 3 categories and the addition of a "survivor" and possibly a "custom" class.
Oh, and how about a "Trailer Queen" class?  

While I'm here, big thanks to all involved in the organisation and running of the Nats - despite a few very minor glitches, very impressive - top effort and well done!

cheers, jack

[RET]

You'll need to define what you mean by an Authentic class and Concours class. The delegates put a lot of time into these discussions, looking for ways the event can be improved. If members have suggestions, we welcome the input.

Just remember that the more classes you have, the more shades of grey and rules that need to be devised. You have to ensure the classes match the cars at any event.

For example, at Orange, there was only really one "custom" vehicle. The number of cars that were competitive in the authenticity component of Stock and not also competitive is Stock overall was also very small.

cheers
RET