Concours restoration

[EffCee]

If anyone could help me I am seeking information on a concours restoration. I have two FC's one I wish to have as a daily driver the other to be a Concours restoration.

As I wish to show the vehicle what modifications (if any) are permitted. I am basically enquiring about the fitment of seat belts. Also as the vehicle is a series 2 FC and I wish to build it as a Series 3 how much attention do the judges pay to the build plate to see what colours and trim the vehicle was originally built with.

Any help would be greatly appreciated

[RET]

Happy to help.

The very definition of 'concours restoration' means modifications aren't permitted, so you may not really want to be aiming at that level.

Having said that, the FE-FC Holden Nationals are not a concours event, and in the event's current form, the scrutineers determine whether a car best fits stock or modified class, and the judges evaluate the vehicles on quality, fit and finish. So the fitment of seat-belts has never been an impediment to being a stock trophy winner.

Now, there will be changes to the judging, scrutineering and trophy list before Orange, based on the outcome of the delegates' meeting following the Mt Gambier event. The details of these changes are not yet ready to be published, but rest assured they will be long before entries to Orange close.

Most of what I've said pertains to the FE-FC Nats of course. Other car shows in your neck of the woods will no doubt have their own flavour. It very much depends on what you want from your car and your resto. And ultimately, it is your car and you should do with it whatever makes you happy.

cheers
RET

[EffCee]

RET,

Thankyou for your description. I am sorry but I should have elaborated more and I used the incorrect terminology. 

What I want to do is enter my car in the next FE FC Nats in the stock category. From what you have said the fitment of seatbelts have never been an impedement to the stock category and hopefully even after the changes have been made for the event at Orange this will continue. This is my prime concern as I wish to fit seatbelts as I wish to also use it for family outings.

As far as my wishing to show the car I am not interested in competing in other car shows, apart from those organised through the local Early Holden clubs or their affiliates.

I suppose what I am trying to achieve is a the restoration of an absolutely first class car that will turn peoples heads and be extremely hard for anyone not in the know to pick what is right and what is wrong, yet still be safe enough to take the family on the occasional outing

[mcl1959]

The stock category is very loose at present and even with changes, it will be still be quite easy to get into with a bit of effort. As far as your quote that you would like your car to "be extremely hard for anyone not in the know to pick what is right and what is wrong" - I would think you should be aiming for a level of being extremely hard for people IN the know to pick faults, otherwise it will be similar to any number of beautifully restored cars already on the scene. If you can create a car which is superbly built and even the experts can't fault - then you really will have a standout car. (Good luck with that one)

If your car is not to that level of detail, then to get it to turn heads, it has to be of a supreme quality as far as paint, trim, fit & finish and detail is concerned or it has to have something special about it which makes it different from the rest of the pack - a standout if you want.

As far as judging is concerned, once you are classified in stock then closeness to authentic does not make a shred of difference.

Ken

[RET]

I suppose what I am trying to achieve is a the restoration of an absolutely first class car that will turn peoples heads and be extremely hard for anyone not in the know to pick what is right and what is wrong, yet still be safe enough to take the family on the occasional outing

If your car is not to that level of detail, then to get it to turn heads, it has to be of a supreme quality as far as paint, trim, fit & finish and detail is concerned

Unfortunately, these things are almost mutually exclusive. It's a rare show-quality vehicle that gets used with any frequency on club outings. It's just the nature of things: if you've got to spend hours underneath it with a toothbrush after taking it on a club picnic day to keep it as clean and spic 'n' span as show-quality demands, it won't be very long before you find yourself at a cross roads.

Just as well you're building two, eh?

As far as judging is concerned, once you are classified in stock then closeness to authentic does not make a shred of difference.

Yet. Watch this space...

cheers
RET

[EffCee]

The daily driver will be like the car I had when I was 17 which had a  hot Grey, Datsun 240Z 5 speed however it will now have a Holden depress, rather than the 240Z box my old car had, HR front and rear end etc. As this will have quite a few mods and it will be a daily driver it is extremely unlikely to stand out from the rest of the crowd.

As for the other, well maybe I already find myself at those cross roads. In taking on board what Ken has said and that I should try to build something that the experts cannot pick then that in itself would be close to the ideal.

I envisage building a car similiar in quality (from what i can see in the photos) of Fast Eddie's (The long Road) where if I am not happy with something then it will be redone until it is right.

The question is do I fit the seat belts or not....... I am assuming that they were never an option?

The other thing, as I have previously stated that my car is a series 2 FC, if I were to build something the experts cannot pick then this would involve changing the subframe for one that had the FC prefix before the chassis number rather than the 8 or 9 before the chassis number, would also involve changing the body ID tags just for starters

I would really appreciate comments on the above thoughts

[EffCee]

The other thing, as I have previously stated that my car is a series 2 FC, if I were to build something the experts cannot pick then this would involve changing the subframe for one that had the FC prefix before the chassis number rather than the 8 or 9 before the chassis number, would also involve changing the body ID tags just for starters

I would really appreciate comments on the above thoughts

What I should have made clearer is the point that I wish to have it as a late series 3 rather than the series 2, hence the changing of the subframe and ID tags etc

[RET]

Technically, there isn't anything on the ID plate that comprehensively identifies a car as being series 2 or 3, and there isn't any reliable resource that can absolutely declare whether the ID and chassis numbers match. (This is no slight on Ken's fantastic archive of research, which I'm in awe of, by the way. The fact is that the cars are the documentation. There isn't any other authority.)

I know I said earlier it's your car and you should do what you want with it, but there must be some good reason why you'd want to swap the mid '59 style for late '59. The former is a lot less common.

But jeez, you're not putting any pressure on yourself, aiming to match Ed's wagon.

And in answer to your other question, there may have been seat-belts available at Holden dealers, but they were never a factory option, and they weren't a genuine Nasco accessory either. The dealer price list I have for FC accessories (which includes both NASCO and others) does not include seat-belts.
Having said that, they've never been an item that attracts any sort of penalty for fitting them, because they're patently a safety item (this sort of reality-averse opinion notwithstanding). You'll note that Ed's wagon has them.

cheers
RET

[RET]

Having said all that, the thread I linked to earlier has details on manufacturers of new webbing for 'period' buckles. A set of EH or thereabouts original buckles with new webbing is a far more sympathetic departure from concours stock than a set of modern plastic ones. Obviously.

Oh, and don't even consider recycling older belts without replacing the webbing. There's a reason the donor car is at the wrecker's...

cheers
RET

[Johns]

EffCee,

Its probably all been said, however FWIW I think that if a restoration is contemplated, to make it truly worhwhile authenticity is the key. It really depends on YOUR definition of restoration. Fast Eddies' wagon, for example, is being finished to a standard never even contemplated when GMH were turning out over 100 per day in some plants, or whatever it was. As are most restos, it is a meticulously hand built car.

The more authentically restored the car the car is the less useable it will be. For example, if you go the authentic route you would have crossplys and no seat belts. Straight away that compromises utility, but it is as GMH built them. Your call.

Soapbox time. As these cars get older and more are modified or unsympathetically restored, unrestored or authentically restored cars become more and more important, as historical documents or artifacts if you like. Because at some in the future some young person (and thank goodness, unlike most of the old car movement where the average age of participants is well over 50, young people are actually interested in old Holdens) may come along and want to authentically restore one of these. What will they use as a reference point? If there are no Ken McLeans, RETs, Geoff Ks et al who will they ask? It's about passing on the knowledge and having an authentic car is an integral part of that.

So IMHO (seriously), if you want to achieve what you state as your objective, doing what you propose is just a resto, but not an authentic one.

Increasingly and this a worldwide change, it is being recognised that original unmolested but patinated (read a bit scruffy) cars are more valuable than incorrectly and over restored ones. Conservation rather than needless restoration. Over time I'm sure our judging will reflect greater weighting to authenticity. And a very original or authentically restored car is a subtle one, they seldom stand out in a display, except to those who know.

I guess you have to decide where you want to be in the spectrum. Good luck with it.

Cheers
John

[mcl1959]

I have to agree with Richard, Ed's car is a tough gig to follow and finding the NOS parts now for authentic rebuilds is very difficult. Don't let this dissuade you by all means, since truly great cars are few and far between and there is always room for another as good as that.
I would not change the series 2 car to a series 3 car if you intend to be authentic, unless you are prepared to change ID plates and subframe number as well. I would fit the seat belts if you intend to drive the car on the road.

Ken

[EffCee]

Well, after careful deliberation I have decided that I will do an absolute  Concours Restoration, as they drove out from the factory. I appreciate the help and guidance that Ken, RET and John have provided so far and will be seeking your assistance further.

I finally got the cars home over the weekend, and the spare car (sold to me as a parts car) I was hoping to use as my daily driver, is just a parts car, rust has seen to that.

In the meantime the car that I have, the series 2 will be built with a HR disc brake front end and HR rear end, 4 speed depress and Grey engine.

I am on the lookout for a really good series 3 FC  sedan, preferably Fountain blue over Skyline blue with the Blue Black interior. This will form the basis of my concours restoration. I aim to have my modified FC finished by Christmas so ideally would like to start the next project after then. In the meantime I will be gathering as much NOS parts that I can.

[mcl1959]

Sorry to inform you, but series 3 blue cars had Blue and White interior with the pressed mould in the seats
The Blue and Black interior finished with series 2.

Ken

[RET]

Aaargh! Ken, you're too quick for me. I was fiddling around with my database trying to prove the same thing to myself, but you beat me to it.

However, my data suggest that there were a few cars with this combination, but probably very few.

In my database I have two cars which have the trim code 308-630, with body numbers in the style 3 range. There's also one that's a style 2.

Particularly interesting is the fact that they are only two cars apart:
FC-225-23586-M (FC-48828-M)
FC-225-23584-M (FC-48837-M)

The second one had engine number L592868, which if original (doubtful) would make it August '59. Both these cars are around 1500 Specials after the change from style 2 to style 3, which means June seems more likely, certainly no later than July.

All that said, the vast majority of cars with trim code 308 have it matched with 839 (Viscount Blue and Florida Blue).

So EffCee, you're going to have to look very very hard for a very long time to find such a car. You'll want to pray it's in better nick than the "tell 'im he's dreamin'" one going on Ebay at the moment

Hope that's helpful.

cheers
RET

[EffCee]

RET & Ken I find that amazing. The reason that I particularly want to do the car in those colours is that it is the same colours my grandparents FC was. Definately a series 3 and definately had the blue black interior. Did not have the pressed moulding, which was unusual as all other series 3 that I saw had the pressed moulding. Maybe as RET says, it was on the cusp of the changeover. I have included a link to  a post I placed earlier to see if someone had some knowledge of my grandparents car.

http://fefcholden.org.au/forum/index.php/topic,12896.0.html

[mcl1959]

I agree Richard, there are a few cars that got the left over trim from series 2 in a series 3 paint scheme. I didn't bring it up since I thought it would cloud the issue. Hard to tell how many there were - maybe a couple of weeks or maybe a month of production. This means there were quite a few made. Maybe a couple of thousand give or take. Not many left now though. 

Ken

[EffCee]

Ken, RET

Do you know the paint and trim codes that I would need to be looking for? i suppose it is like searching for a needle in a haystack but I really want to give it a go.

Keith

[RET]

Keith,

As mentioned above, Trim code 308-630, with a body ID:

• above 14196 if suffixed -A (Adelaide manufactured)
• above 22270 if suffixed -M (Melbourne)
• above 27580 if suffixed -S (Sydney)

Best of British...

RET

[FC_fer_me]

Ret, could my FC be one of those cars?. Chassis # FC48837M
                                                       Body # 225-23584M
                                                       Trim 308-630
                                                       Paint 256-2051
                                                       Insert 253-9741
                                                       Top 253-2051
I have included a photo. The paint is original, never been resprayed. Cheers, Jack.

[mcl1959]

Yep that is one of the cars. Now whatever you do - don't tell effcee that you have it.

It's about 1300 bodies above the cut off point, so there were at least that many made.

Ken