Starting problems

[Paul In Ireland]

So, I noticed the last couple of weeks the ute getting harder and harder to start - battery was weakening I was thinking. Turns out the alternator belt was a bit too loose. Meanwhile, as I was trying to turn it over this morning it just went more or less dead.

I have the battery out on a trickle charge to make sure it is ok. I have tightened the belt but still no life - not a squeak even.

So, tell me what I have missed? What possible causes?



Thanks, Paul.

[earlyholdenfan]

Hi Paul, not sure on the no start problem, BUT
just a little bit of info (from personal experience )
do not tighten the fan belt too much on the grey IF you are running the original Generator, they have a brass bush at the end of the armature, and if you over tighten the belt it flogs the bush out, just make sure to only tighten it to the manual specifications. and allow it plenty of flex, and you will be kind to the bushes!
Cheers
Matt

P.S batteries of course have a limited life and coming on to the colder weather are called upon to use more power, it is common for them to collapse cells coming into colder weather and fail to operate, how old is the battery?

[Paul In Ireland]

Battery is 4 years old but in pretty good nick.

I tried attached battery wires to jump leads from a bigger battery on my chev - the engine does not even make a noise, not even register that I have turned the key.

Can there be a coil or a fuse or something that can go just like that? Is it possible there is a starter problem? Given I have only had it a couple of months but up to now it starts on the button and runs like a dream.

Confusing me quite a bit (I am no mechanic but I do try to reason out most problems).

[KFH]

My FC has a Bosch starter on it.  At times it would fire and at times it was completely dead and would not turn the motor at all.  It turned out to be the coil on the starter motor solenoid was intermittently open circuit.  A whack with a spanner was the temporary cure. I have now replaced the starter and all is well.  If you have a voltmeter check if there is voltage on the small wire of the starter when the key is turned to start.  This will rule out wiring and switch etc.

Keith

[colt]

Paul, it looks like you live in a fairly moist environment. I would be checking all the electrical connections for electrical integrity. No powdery residues on soldered lugs, make sure your earth straps from motor to body are in good nick. Where the main cables go onto the battery terminals, make sure there is no corrosion on either the terminal or in the wiring strands. I would also check the wiring at your ignition switch to make sure there are no loose or broken wires. This also goes for coil, distributor & generator.
I also had the problem described above by Keith, changing the starter fixed the problem.
 Colin.

[NO NAME]

bugger, are your jumper leads good, have you sussed out the battery to starter lead, then the earth lead, then try shorting across on the solinoid.
 if that doesnt work the starter is probably dead.

[Paul In Ireland]

I have put the recharged battery back in - nothing.
I hooked up a fully charged jump start battery just before that and nothing there either.
As I said, I'm not mechanically minded but I try to work things out.
There is no buildup on the battery and all leads and cables seem to be connected etc.
How do you short across the solenoid? Is there any way to tell if the starter is completly dead or maybe even seized up?

How hard is it to get a recon starter? I reckon I can fit any parts needing fitting (if I definitely know they need replacing) but it's the knowing I am short on.

Cheers, Paul.

[oldjohnno]

Hi Paul,
Diagnosing electrical problems is done by a process of elimination, and often by substituting known good parts and or temporarily bypassing suspect wiring or switches.. You could try these:
1, Do the headlights burn brightly when you turn them on? Do they stay fairly bright when you turn the key to start? If so then the battery is probably ok but temporarily fit a known good one if you can. Four years is pretty old for todays shitty batteries..
2, Make sure all the connections are clean and tight. You can check for a bad cable by running a jumper lead from the positive lead on the battery to the positive on the starter solenoid. Run a jumper from the negative battery term. to the block to check for a bad earth connection. Bad connections tend to get hot when under load so you can check for this too.
3, The starter solenoid will have 2 big terminals and 1 small one. Use a big screwdriver or similar to briefly bridge between the 2 big ones. The starter should spin (but not engage) if it's ok.
4, If the starter tests ok try bridging between the big solenoid terminal that has the battery lead connected and the small terminal. The engine should crank over when you do this. If it does but wont start with the key then the key switch or the wiring is faulty. If you dont get any idiot lights or gauge movement when you turn the key on check the power supply to the key switch
Hope this helps.

[Rod]

Hi Paul,

I had the exact same problem (as it sounds anyway) as yourself only just recently. Turned out that the brushes in the starter were cactus. Replaced them with a secondhand set to see if they were the problem and low and behold the starter span over with renewed vigor again. You post reminds me that I must get a new set of brushes. Does anyone know if they are freely available?

Anyway Paul this might help but exhaust all the other recommendations as well.

Cheers


Rod

[Paul In Ireland]

Thanks for all the replies.

I will be working through them when I get a chance to get out to the garage.

Meantime, I have less than 4 weeks til my sis and her hubby come over for Christmas etc. and I am in the middle of doing built in wardrobes, brick veneer on the garage, clean, tidy yadda yadda yadda....

I will update everyone in the coming days...

Thanks again, Paul.

[Paul In Ireland]

OK - wiring seems to be good and tight, tried a new battery to be sure but the old one was fine. Tried oldjhohnno's list and I think it probably boils down to pull the fecking starter out and give it a good look - brushes seems the answer I think.

So - best way to pull the starter out seems to be from below? Will have a go later in the week at this and drop it down to a guy i heard who recons starters etc.

Meanwhile I may try and get a spare starter on ebay just to have...

[KFH]

Paul  The starter comes out from on top.  Disconnect one lead from battery, take the wires off the two terminals on the starter, remove the three studs that holds the starter onto the bell housing.  The top one closest to the block requires a long extension to allow the ratchet reach the front side of the exhaust pipe,and from memory a flexible coupling is required.  The starter then pulls forward. Quite an easy job and takes about 5 minutes.  When you get the starter out put 12 volts across the small terminal. The negative side of the battery goes to the frame of the starter.The solenoid should pull in if it is OK.  Putting the positive lead to the large terminal that has the thick flat wire going to the inside of the starter should make the starter turn if the brushes etc are OK.

Keith

[Paul In Ireland]

Thanks all for the tips - took out the starter tonight but when you don't have the correct tools it can take and hour and a half....

Off to the shop for recon - will let you know what sort of cash that they charge here for the service.

[Geoff_K]

Paul,
Because Holden is GM, as is Vauxhall, and the starter motor is Lucas (English) or Bosch (German) there is a high probalility that the same specification starter motor was used in cars that your local auto electrician has repaired.  (the outer case could be different but much off the inner working should be the same)
Thus when presented with the Holden Starter Motor, experienced repairers, will go and compare 'bits & pieces' in the replacement parts bin, and can often find the same part used in many cars.... I would expect replacement 'bushes' for Holden are the same as many other cars (with similiar engine size) of the era.
Knowing how GM / Lucas / Bosch save money by using common sourced parts, I would think you could almost bet your sweet bippy that they are the same.
Good Luck
Geoff_K

[Paul In Ireland]

Well, I dropped it off this morning and asked how long until it would be ready...

Do you want it back this afternoon? Overnight is normal but we can put it on for rapid response....


Man - talk about fast!! Pity I'm going away for a few days tomorrow.

[Paul In Ireland]

So I am back from my little trip and I collected the recon'd starter.

Cost $55 for the job, put it back in this evening and bang! Turned over and purred away.

They did tell me that the starter probably has just about had it and next time they won't be able to get it going again.... We'll wait and see!

Thanks for all the advice.

[Martin]

That sounds like pretty good value to me, Paul.  Even if it was 55 Euro, or 55 Brit Pounds, it would still be a good price, I reckon.

Do you know why they called the Irish Pound the Punt?  'cos it rhymes with Bank Manager.   

Martin