FE-FC Holden Discussion Forum

G'day guys...
We recieved this email at the Southern Sydney Early Holden Car Club, and I was unable to help with an answer.... I was hoping someone here might be able to help. The email reads:

"Can anyone help how would I identify a canadian grey motor? I have a grey holden motor in a wooden clinker speed boat. It has one of the rare repco cross flow heads on it, and used to have hightop pistons, loves to use avgas but I'm not able to legally purchase it anymore. I have recently purchased a fully marinised grey holden motor that has GMH in a horse shoe on both the block and the head, could this be canadian? I would like to power up another motor for weekend use and save the motor my father developed in the late 50's early 60's for special use. Hoping someone can steer me in the right direction. Regards Bernard."

Anyone know...??
Cheers
Les...

The man who is probably the closest thing to a Guru on this topic would be Don Loffler.  In his "She's A Beauty" he discusses the so-called Canadian Block.  The long and the short of it is that he doesn't find any of the stories about how GM-H came to have Canadian blocks credible.  I don't recall all the details, but I'll have a look in the book over the weekend if I get a chance.

cheers
RET

Hi.
I am sure the Canadian blocks didn't have the extra webbing along the side of the block, as it was a thicker cast & didn't require it.
The early FX's had the GMH cast block & head. I reckon that would be one of those, as in the early 60's, stacks of the "Canadian" blocks were used, aabused then ultimately destroyed.
Could you see if this fella who has the boat could give me some more info on it, Les?? I have started a small site to try & share info on performance Grey stuff & would love to hear from him & maybe get a few photos of the boat. I know a fella who has just bought another VERY rare racing boat, that used to run a "Waggot Twin Cam Head".
Regards,
Rob J

If you are going to the ahd next weekend Don Loffer will be attending the day you may be able to ask him the question then
WAYNE

Hey Rob,

Is the site up and running yet,if so whats the address I'd love to have a look.

cheers

Weedy

Hi Guys
There was suppose to be about 150 Canadian blocks cast with Scottish made forged cranks, fitted to the first 48-215's. The blocks were thicker around the bores which allowed them to be bored out  to 3 1/4" +40 thou.  
Getting the engine number would be a help. From that we could work out where it came from, assuming it hasn't been altered.
An old timer in the speedway scene also told me they had smaller expansion plugs behind the sideplate than what the Aussie cast greys did. How true that is, I'm not sure......
Hope this helps a bit
Cheers
Tony

Hi Weedy.
Here is the link to the site. I checked with RET & he is cool if I put it up for people to find.

http://groups.msn.com/StorminNormans-NormanSuperchargerGroup-/_whatsnew.msnw

There isn't heaps there yet, but as we speak, a mate of mine who has some SERIOUS goodies is sending me some photos of his stuff & a few archive shots.
Tony C has also added some very cool pics.
Rob J

Hey Gang.
I was informed many years ago that the Canadian blocks had a maple leaf cast into the block in place of the 'GMH'.
Regards
Alex

 8) Hi im the 1 who posted the question on canadian grey holden motors. the serial no. of my recent purchase 128350.i also heard that the stroke was also changed during the time period of the grey ,would that be so ?.Some stats on the motor i'm currently using. bore 3,1/16  compression 10:1 Repco Research (1960)cam I.O 50o, I.C 80o; E.O 80o, E.C 50o (similar to waggot's spec) 47.5 deg before TDC full centrifugal advance.In developing the motor as a dry sump i remember my fathers pain in blowing rotor gears.He soon learn't were to tap the block and spray oil on the gear.He tapped into the end of the cam shaft to drive an aircraft fuel pump as a scavanger pump.The cooling system runs on recycle with a heat exchanger.carby's are 2xdual 32 / 36 D/D webbers.Head repco crossflow with tuned extractors .It has a note like nothing else I've heard and idles lumpier than grandmar's porridge. If someone could tell me how i would love to post a couple of pics up here for you to have a squiz at.

Hi Bernard.
Yep, it is an early FJ block. They started at engine number 121694 up to 283383, then after that, the engine number was prefixed with "U" (ie. U283384). The "Canadian blocks were only released in the 48-215's (I am 99.9% sure of this, but will stand corrected if someone can prove otherwise).
Your block is over 7000 units into the FJ range.
It is still worth $$ though, as not a great deal of them had the GMH cast into the block & head. An FJ restorer would love it!!
Hope this helps.
I am sorry, but I can't advise on how to post pictures on this site. Someone is sure to help though.
Regards,
Rob J

canadian blocks were easily identifiable from memory they had two welsh plugs down side of block not 3 as the other blocks do and also they were 132 only not 138 but thicker as we could bore them to about 140 or 142 ci (too long ago to remember exact size )also the bearings on 132 canadian blocks were wider which helped stop a bit of the flexing,so when used with bridged crank support were very tough and long lasting in speedway cars

All grey motors until the FB were 132.5 ci.  Bore was increased with that model from 3" to 3 1/16".

RET

 8)Thanks for the info re.canadian grey? with a further look the motor has 3 very small welsh plugs on starter side,less pronounced ribbing on the side of the block compared with the boats current motor .Seemslike the serial numbers indicate it to be early fj .can any one tell me if the stroke was changed  between models.? thanks .regards BC

I've only got a 48-FC parts book to hand, but it only lists one crankshaft (part number 7410677) for all models.  Additionally, both the FE and EJ Workshop Manuals give the nominal stroke as 3 1/8".  So I think the answer to your question is "no".

cheers
RET

I had an opportunity to talk to Don Loffler about this question the other day, and can add the following, "from the horse's mouth".  There is no such thing as a Canadian Block, in the sense that no grey motors were ever made in Canada.  The prototype 48-215s had motors that were manufactured in Detroit (with the rest of the car).  All 48s built by Holden had motors manufactured by Holden.  Whilst it is true that there are greys with 2 welsh plugs and some with 3, this was a change made to the Australian built greys, and has no significance except in dating the age of the motor.

He did also give me some further information and tantalising theories about the so-called "Canadian Block", but until he does some more research to prove or disprove those theories I'm not really at liberty to publish here.

Hope that's some help, tho.

cheers
RET

This is a very interesting subject that has been around for years.  I have spoke to Barry Black in the FX/FJ club who is a specialist in FX/FJ history (he supplies info to Don Loffler).
He is of the same opinion that the Canadian block is mythical and that confusion reigns because GMH changed the casting moulds during the early years as production techniques improved and cost efficiency became important.
He also said that FX blocks are quite rare and look different to FJ and later blocks and because of this, when people see one they think it may be a Canadian block.
Barry has a collection of FX and FJ data which is at least double the size of my collection and he is quite sure he has never seen an engine which was of Canadian origin - all have been built in Australia.

Ken

Hi all.
I too have heard all the stories about the "Canadian" blocks, but have never seen any hard proof they were made. After talking to many racers & older enthusiests, no one can give me an exact description of the "Mythical Motor". One guy did shed a bit of light on the term "Canadian", as he was sure they were built by Chevrolet "Maple Leaf" division (Maple Leaf = Canadian??). These are the early 40's cars. I have a copy of an old Chevrolet Maple Leaf book & it has a breakdown of what looks remarkably like a big Holden Grey motor. But, it is NOT. Just very similar in design.
I have one of the very early FX blocks & have had some people offer me very good money, as they reckon it is one of the fabled "Canadian" blocks. But, it is just an FX block with GMH cast into it & the 2 welsh plugs. That is all that seem to be different.
I'm sure Don Loffner & Barry Black know what they are talking about.
Rob J

they do exist and no i cant prove it, but first one i came across was a stock engine and with rare two piece exhaust manifold like GTR red motor ones ,It did over the ton in my car, it was my 6th grey motor in 7 years and none of the others did over 85-90 mph before that engine, when mechanic rebuilt it he found that the stock bearings were not wide enough and it only had 2 welsh plugs whilst his manuels sid it should have 3, i know its not a technical answer but a few old timers who raced speedway swore by them , so to my way of thinking your books are great but not perfect,just because the auther did not find the info on something does not mean it was not out there,he just did not find it.

myth or legend.
canadian blocks
LEGEND

Hi.
I reckon the 2 piece exhaust headers were either SPECO, Jack Meyers or Thomas headers. Like they said, there was a change in the casting of the blocks, but it doesn't mean they were Canadian blocks. As for the authors of the books not finding the info, I don't think you can say that doesn't prove it. How can they be expected to find proof of a block doesn't exist? If there is no proof, there was no block.
Remember the famous XU2 Torana. I know at least 3 guys down here who had one!!! ::) Could they prove it? Never. They never were able to supply the compliance details, they could never get verification from GMH that they existed. But one of them said, it had the XU2 stickers. But, I pointed out, you could get them from most speed shops at that time. XU2 Myth or Legend? Myth!
Until someone actually produces a Candadian block, I think we will have to put that in the Myth basket.
Regards,
Rob J

your wrong,simple  as that, although technically maybe they were not produced in Canada but were a term used for certain castings,thats why they were sort after as they defineatly had thicker bores and better webbing,i only wish i knew the engine numbers of the two i had, that i got from one of these old speedway drivers,as side by side you could see the few differences,and they most certainly went harder even in stock form,you can quote books and authers all day long,but i know your wrong because i have seen and used these engines .

Nicko,

You seem to have your mind quite made up.  I am inclined to put a fair amount of faith in what the well known and well respected Holden researchers such as Don and Barry have to offer on the subject.

Maybe it is plausible that the earlier casting with 2 welsh plugs had slightly thicker walls or other characteristics that allowed it to be bored out further than later ones.  But maybe it's just the luck of the draw, too.

Like every other motor built pre robotics and full mechanisation, no two grey motors would be the same.  I've heard of red motors bored and stroked to 235ci that run like hot snot, but I bet for every one that regularly does the ton there are a dozen 'prototypes' that wound up as boat anchors.

And it's also possible that the speedway guy who had the motor before you did who knows what with it.  Those guys were well known for making all sorts of extraordinary changes to the bottom ends of old grey motors, and some of it has been discussed on this site, like cranks from other motors, fitting them out with 7 bearings etc etc.  If there was a market for Dunstan rotary heads and Repco Cross-flow heads and Norman Superchargers and the like, who's to say that the bottom end of your motor was how it came out of the factory?  After all, it had been in a race-car before you had it!

I don't doubt that you had a stove-hot grey motor, but your proof of the existence of "Canadian Blocks" is no more compelling than the research of others disproving it.

cheers
RET

one of those motors was worked and yes the speedway driver had done a fair amount of work to both bottom end and head but the other was a stock standard motor out of another car and that was the one that did just over 100mph, with headers from worked motor and 2inch system,which i doubt would add more than 3 to 5 mph extra where as the worked one took speedo to 110mph with a little more to go when speedo broke and went back to zero and i was too scared to push it anymore as car was floating around road.
I know a couple of you dont agree and will not hear of anyone contradicting you so i wont say another word about it as you will no doubt do your usual and quote books and make little innuendoes about others knowledge.
You know best so why even let anyone bring subject up.

Stop the planet I want to get off, people arguing over what may or may not have happened 50 years ago.
Let it rest, people have different opinions and believes. Some believe in gods and gurus some do not. Some only from personal experience some from other peoples.
Can we get on to something else
My 2 c worth
John M

Geez Nicko no need to have a sook, mate.  If you've got some proof, good for you. I'd love to have this mystery solved, as would plenty of others.  But simply saying "you're wrong I used to have one" is not proof.  I could tell you that I used to own the first FE to come off the production line and you can't disprove it, but you would have every right to be a bit sceptical.

It's a known fact that there a couple of different castings of grey motors, and one of the most obvious differences is the 2 or 3 welsh plugs.  And I do appreciate the variation in webbing thickness.  But neither of these things signify a "Canadian Block".

Some grey motors could be bored out further than others without stuffing them.  No-one disputes that.  But why that is has yet to be solved.  What is known is that no grey motor fitted to any Holden came from anywhere other than Holden's foundries, except for the 5 Detroit built prototypes.  And those motors never left GM-H, even though the cars they were fitted to may have.  (ie the Strongman's 48 prototype).  Furthermore, whilst the motors out of the earliest 48s where highly sought after for racing, people with more knowledge and experience than me have said that there was nothing innately better about the early motors and just as many of them threw a leg out of bed as later ones bored out the same.  Very credible evidence suggests that it is simply the case that some block castings were better than others, and there is no rhyme or reason for it that has been determined.

I'm open to hear anything from anyone that might solve this "mystery".  And I'm not one for innuendo either, I say what I mean.  As I said before, I don't doubt you had a grey motor with plenty of go, but you've got nothing to prove its authenticity as a "Canadian Block".  And without that, I'm inclined to go along with the research of people who have done serious investigation on the subject.

cheers
RET

Hi All.
Chill out, Nicko. ::) There is no need to get personal & suggest we made snide remarks about people who are trying to help. My suggestion, is you have a look at yourself before posting remarks like this.

I quote:
"I know a couple of you dont agree and will not hear of anyone contradicting you so i wont say another word about it as you will no doubt do your usual and quote books and make little innuendoes about others knowledge."

All we are saying, is there doesn't seem to be any evidence to support the claims. There is a fella down here who races a JWF Italia with a kick arse Grey motor. When I first asked him about the best Grey to use, he scoffed at my suggestion that there was such a thing as a "Canadian". He then went on to say the best block to bore is the EJ. The reason? It was because GMH had finnaly got their shite together & could cast a block well. It wasn't that the bores were thicker in any motor, at ANY stage. It was that they were never that well aligned. He has fitted a Vauxhall steel crank & as you may or may not be aware, the bores have to be slightly re-aligned to accomodate the crank. He went through 4 blocks before he got one that was right.

You also seem to have an issue with Don Loffner & Barry Black. These guys have spent a long time researching the FX FJ & are renound as being the real "Gurus" on this subject. Don has written a book & it sells very well. In my opinion, he is correct & anyone else who wants to disprove him, should go for it. Prove it & I for one will be pleased to see this Canadian.

If for one second you want to be taken seriously, don't sook about being questioned. I actually have one of the different blocks & can assure you, it isn't made in the US or Canada. It has GMH cast on the side.

Tell you what Nicko, you turn one of these fabled blocks up, in any condition & I will give you $2,000 for it. But, I want PROOF!!

Regards,
Rob J


p.s. Sorry John M, but you know me. I like a bit of a "Discussion" (debate, argument, BIFFO!!) & do not sook out.

And EJ motors have only 40 years worth of metal fatigue, not 55 ;D

Hi All,

Just wondering what the title of Don Loffners book is and where I can get it.

Cheers

Weedy ;D

3  books by don loffler   "she's a beauty"
      " still holden together"
   " the fj holden"
   all good stuff.   from memory the first has a section on the canadian motor

Not fatigue RET but seasoning,an EJ block has 40 years of seasoning not 55 like an FX unit ::)

Thou a well seasoned block is more preferable in racing, but how well seasoned do you like :-X
John M

G'day all
Just to add my two bobs worth, you are al basically correct. A very good old friend of mine who just recently died worked for Holdens from 1947 to 1979 and for the last 20 years of his working life was Manager of the toolroom where all of the dies and casting blanks were made. I had two of these early blocks (still down the back of the shed now) and because I noticed they were different and I had heard of the Canadian Blocks I asked him about it.
What he told me and I have no way of knowing whether or not it is fact, but he was not normally a bloke to bullshit was that there were a lot of these blocks made from 1948 to 1951. They did have stronger webbing and two welch plugs and they were built with better tolerances and better balanced than the normal motors. The reason was that GMH through GM detroit was going to export the motors to Canada for some vehicle that GM Canada wanted to produce. The project was in the pipeline for three years, then the Canadians backed out. GMH had tooled up for the engines and produced them and randomly fitted them to Aussie cars. The gained the nickname Canadian Block from the Foundry workers and it stuck. The reason for the thicker casting and webbing was to combat the extreme cold of the Canadian climate.
I have no way of knowing whether this is fact or not but it sounds feasible to me and as I said he was not prone to bullshit
Cheers
Jock

there i am breaking my word and writing again,
STICK THAT IN YOUR BOOKS,
as its exactly as i remember castings the two welsh plug blocks were faster and tougher and goes with what the old racers said please dig blocks out of shed Jockster and write in engine numbers for all to see. ALL LEGENDS ARE BASED ON 50%FACT AND 50% MYTH

Let it go, Nicko.
Like Jockster said, "HE HAS NO WAY OF PROVING THIS"!!!
It was an old bloke that may or may not have been bullshitting. You are basing fact on that. Hmm, pretty thin, Mate!!
I can give you the engine number of my "so called Canadian" block, it has the 2 plugs, but it is just an FX motor.
Legends= 100% proven, Myths = 100% bullshite!!!
Rob J

Jockster,

That's a new theory about the Canadian Block that I haven't heard before, that they were being produced here to be sent there.  Usually the story has it the other way around!

It certainly is a more considered theory than some I have heard, but I still think it's a bit doubtful.  Consider the length of the waiting lists for the 48-215 during that time-frame.  On p118 of She's a Beauty there's a copy of an order slip for a Holden dated 27-7-50, with an estimated delivery date of July 1952!  If Holden had more orders than they could fill (as is well known - even the introduction of the ute was held back until the backlog of sedan orders could be gotten under control), it would be crazy to attempt to export motors at the same time.  Also, if GM-H put the time, effort and money into producing a better grey motor, why wouldn't they use it in all Holdens?  Even if it cost a bit more to produce, it could have been introduced with the FJ, or the FE.  Eventually the R&D and tooling costs would have been recouped.  By cancelling the project they never would be.

I would also think that there would be something in the Holden Archives documenting the deal with GM Canada, if such an export agreement had been in the works.

I'm interested to know the engine numbers tho, Jockster, if you're planning on digging them out.

cheers
RET

Ret
I will attempt to get the engine numbers off of the blocks, they are right down the back of the storage shed behind two FJ vans that are awaiting restoration and haven't seen the light of day for about twenty years.
As I said I have no idea whether the old guy was correct in what he told me or not, it is feasible despite the shortage of Holdens at the time a lot of control was still from Detroit and it may have been a project guided from there. As to why they didn't develop them for other Holdens if they were better, well I can only guess that they didn't do it because they didn't need to, they had virtually no competition at that time.
Also as we are all aware manufacturers will save money wherever they can (thats why they still fit steel welch pugs to modern motors even now) and if the engine cost more to make it would have been shelved in favour of the cheaper version.
Thats just my opinion however and it could be totally wrong.
Cheers
Jock

Jockster,

That's true and for that matter there may have been political pressure to produce the export motor (for balance-of-trade and all that).  But that aside, if GM-H didn't have the capacity to produce the motors, why wouldn't GM (who surely would have) not built them?  And it would be a lot simpler and cheaper to freight the motors from Detroit to Canada than from Melbourne.

You are right that there's no real need to innovate without competition, and I appreciate what you say about saving costs, but that's what's a bit strange about the story - after all the cost is in the tooling more than the individual units (the first block would cost millions of pounds to produce, the second one next to nothing).  So if they were able to make one, why not keep making them?

Or implement the changes (if they were proven to make the engine more powerful, stronger etc) when the bore was increased to 138?  Surely that would be the time to do it.  Yet the exterior of the 138 is identical to the FC 132.

They'd have to have been sustantially more expensive to produce to warrant throwing away the tooling and R&D costs, and I can't see how thicker webbing alone could make that much of a difference.

cheers
RET

OK.
I went & dug my "Canadian ::)" block out of the shed. I have it sitting next to a standard bore "J" block that I have for modifying.
The engine number on the ODD block is 138838. It has GMH (in that cicle kind of insignia they use) cast into the side. The head had the same casting. Things I note that are different are;
The welsh plugs are a smaller diameter along the side of the block.
There seems to be a bit of extra meat internally.
Also, the most obvious difference, is that the ODD block where the side welsh plugs are is smoother. The webbing around the welsh plugs is not as pronounced & along the lower part of that side, it is totally smooth, without the second ridge that runs parallel the the bottom ridge. The J block has the more pronounced webbing & a secondary ridge(hope I am making myself clear).
I will try & scam a digital camera & get a shot of the differences. Then I will post it here for all to see.
I have also just dug out my engine number ID book & it tells me it is an early FJ block, not even an FX!!!

Regards,
Rob J

p.s. This Canadian block is for sale $3,000 as it is the first one made ;) (sorry, I can't prove it though!!)
 

Wow $3000 for the block. I might have to go down to the back of the shed sooner than I thought, I might make some money on these old engines and who knows what other treasures I might find down there that I have forgotten
Cheers
Jock

To add my five cents worth (you can't spend 2's anymore). Years ago I spoke with an interesting guy who worked in maintenance at Fishermans bend and he also mentioned as did RET that there are no identical grey motors due to the casting process. Much of the tooling and dies was hand finished so also no 2 dies were the same.
We were discussing the subject of how the General  moves to series 2 Holdens, gets things right then drops it for a new model. He mentioned that has happened since day one with many of the major components being upgraded with nothing more than an internal memo ordering machinery changes to accommodate. The reason the early blocks changed to the "series 2" with 3 welsh plugs was the problems encountered removing the casting sand from the block with 2 welsh plugs. That's what the welsh plugs are there for after all.  
I'm not disputing whether or not "Canadian" blocks existed because I don't know. I'm merely passing on  another view on the subject.
cheers,
Leigh

Hi Guys
I decided to do some digging, to try and find out the truth about the "Canadian Greymotor".
The info below was collected with the help of
Norm Darwin, author  of The history of Holden,
David Hayward, Automotive and Military Historian and author,
Ken Kaufmann, GM historian and author
Thanks guys for answering my questions.


Here it is........

Was there really a "Canadian Greymotor?"
"This myth has arisen because in my opinion the initials "CWO" were cast in on the original blocks which, understandably, some bright spark thought that they stood for, with justification, "Canadian War Office". However this was a misreading, and in fact the initials were "CWC", for "Campbell,Wyant & Cameron Foundry Company, Muskegon,Michigan USA". CWC produced castings for GM along with Ferro, and other companies in the 490 and F series days.Ferro continued to provide castings for GMC/Pontiac until at least 1928..Ferro Machinery & Foundry Company, Cleveland, Ohio. This proves that GM farmed out limited-run castings for prototypes and one-offs to contractors that they had a traditional relationship with. There is no evidence of any Canadian involvement. GM of Canada subsidiary McKinnon Industries Limited of St. Catherines,Ontario cast blocks and heads for GM of Canada from 1935 and yet there is a photo in the Canadaina Archives from 1936 of castings being made in the Walker Metal Products Limited factory,Walkerville, Ontario, for GM and that company had as Hiram Walker & Co.Limited metal works produced Chevrolet and Buick castings for GM of Canada 1922-24/5. How do we know? Because "HW" was cast into the components!There would have been a Maple Leaf or some other identity cast in if these were Canadian castings. No, the original castings were US-produced to GM CORPORATION contract, and the castings were made by C-W-C. They probably produced the original formers etc. to drawings from GM Engineering. Don't forget that it was still wartime, and Flint, Saginaw, Tonawanda plants were all fully occupied with war contracts for engines. Whether military GMC units were also farmed out to casting companies because of demand I have no idea but it makes sense. However, McKinnons produced all known Canadian military Chevrolet castings, though they could not cope with GMC military demand and so GMCs were produced in Canada for just one year, August 1940
on, and all the rest were bought in from Pontiac Plant.

No, this has been an urban myth that has become urban lore....and yet it's pure error. If someone had not misinterpreted the CWC initials then "Canadian" would never have arisen. It's only because Ken Kaufmann and I did enormous research into the early Chevrolet castings that we found out about C-W-C, and so it's really only in recent years that we have found the answer. I have to thank Ken for finding out whom C-W-C was".
David Hayward


Were the C-W-C prototypes exported to Oz?
"There must in my humble opinion have been an export of blocks and heads, and all the cores, etc., plus the blueprint drawings....I wonder if they came on the boat with Russell Begg? They would have been no use to GM, and yet GM had paid for the castings so they would surely have been sent out and then charged to the program cost: "The Australian Car Program" in GM Overseas Division parlance.
I would hazzad a guess that GM wrote off some of the costs of the 195-Y- projects against the ACP.... GM looked to recover as many bucks as possible after the war for wartime projects, and losses.
The other point that comes to mind is whether Project 320 used any of these early castings? I am certain that given tight costings, every casting that was brought over, once inspected and studied was used up in a car that hit the road..."
David Hayward

What about the "thicker cylinder wall" story in the "Canadian" Grey?
"This possibly had something to do with the manufacturing process more than anything else. In other words CWC were able to fix the sand cores in the casting moulds far more accurately than Holdens process allowed. Thus they could be bored to larger sizes without breaking into the water block."
Norm Darwin

"That was also true of the 1925 FERRO block being the racers choice for the Chev 4 - FERRO was more able to position its cylinder moulds more dead center so the cylinders could be bored out further then the other blocks because the cylinder walls were better centered".
Ken Kaufmann

How's that sound? Not Canadian but US built, and the large over boring that was possible can be put down to better production techniques of the US foundry than the Holden cast blocks.

Anybody got a CWC block they want to part with  ;D
Hope this helps
Cheers
Tony

I'll get my torch & magnifying glass out Tony & check out all my blocks.
Good on ya for digging all that info up!
As a result of an earlier post I have found a block with only 2 welsh plugs.
Do you know where I need to look for the CWC?
Regards Gary

It seems that not a lot of those who posted on this thread are still on the forum...

However, I'm going to suggest that the passage of almost a decade since everyone went scurrying off to their piles of blocks means nobody found one.

Is this correct?

I'm hot on the trail of the truth of this Canadian block myth. I want to get to the bottom of it.

Does anyone have a photo of any of the prototype cars' engines showing the logo from CWC?

Whoa, Nearly 10 years between drinks...

The subject is still very much alive, however...

What's with the leeches?

I'm still here, still very firmly of the opinion that there's no such thing as a "Canadian" block that was ever fitted to a Holden.

Leeches?

I am also still here, I have been investigating early Holden history for over 20 years. There is no evidence, nor reason why an imported engine for early Holdens existed. Holden had experience during the war with making engines for aeroplanes so the shift to car engines was not a big one, however improvements in the casting process meant that cost reductions could be achieved by reducing wall thicknesses hence the myth of the early casting being that of imported origin.
Regarding the story of exporting engines to Canada, the immense size of the Canadian / American market would mean that any content offered by Australia would be insignificant. Add that to the waiting list for early Holdens would mean that it would be extremely unlikely.

Early engines were certainly better for racing because they could be bored out a lot more than later ones, but they were also prone to letting go as we'll. later engines were stronger. In the seventies, it was very fashionable to race an early Holden with an EJ block.

My position - myth
But you sound like you have a theory, so lets hear it

Ken

Well...... Time for my 2 bob's worth!

Having been around and in greys since the early 60's, I have heard most of the theories on Canadian blocks, and IMHO none of them hold water.
I was involved in motor sports through the 60's and 70's and can't recollect any reputable engine builder referring to a "Canadian Block" at that time.
They just knew that there were some blocks that had better placement of the cylinders than others, and were more suitable for bigger bores.
As there were plenty of blocks around at the time, they could play with dozens until they had success.
From memory, they didn't necessarily come from early or late castings, it was just luck of the draw.
There is no definite proof that Canadian blocks do or do not exist, but surely if there was such a thing somebody would have proof?
I have always felt that the myth was invented by someone trying to make a buck out of scrap metal, and there will always be those types and plenty of willing believers.
Finally, my knowledge does not come from my brother-in-law's mate whose son's girlfriend knew a bloke at GMH. It's all first-hand.

Ol'Gaz

PS Please do not take this post as a personal attack if you don't agree, and please don't weigh into me. ;D

My opinion on the best Grey motor to rebuild is the EJ. As for the Canadian Block, MYTH.
 The reason the EJ is the best is that Holden put all there refinments and technology at the time into building the EJ motor to be the most reliable and economical it posibly could be before changing to the Red motor and the last of every model has proven to be the best.
Cheers Scotty

So the early engines let go in racing too?

Does that mean that the Scottish (forged?) crankshaft story is a myth too?

Hello Ray.

My name is Terry Bebbington, author of 60 Years of Holden & earlier books in that series. I don't to pretend to know much more than any others on this forum, but I have worked in the auto industry for 43 years & drag raced quite a few Holdens (although mostly V8s). Most of what I've learnt on this topic is 1st hand & I've shared much of my info with both Barry Black & Don Loffler. I know them both well & have visited them many times when interstate trips allow. I've also communicated with David Hayward many times over the years. Another person with knowledge on this topic is Stan Bennet.

My view of the so-called 'Canadian Block' is that it is a myth or urban legend, that does have a basis in some small elements of truth.

What I believe is as follows:-

1. All Holden Grey motor blocks were cast at Fishermans Bend, with the except of the hand-full of prototypes.
2. Similarly all Grey cranks were forged at Fishermans Bend, except the prototypes.
3. The prototype blocks were cast in Michigan USA (by the company CWC), not in Canada.
4. There were several changes made to block castings over the years, but a major change occurred at Eng No. 37832, where the cylinder walls were reduced in thickness for improved cooling. The change in welch plug size also occurred at this time. In those days casting techniques weren't as precise as they are today & cylinder bore centering was always an issue. Obviously some improvements to this were made between 1948 & 1951 when the 'improved' block was introduced.
5. Speaking to many old speedway & racecar engine builders of the era, their aim was to find an well-centred early block (with the thicker cylinder walls, which they identified by the welch plug size) to gain maximum bore size. They had no concerns with overheating as you would in everyday traffic usage & besides by the time they bored out the block it would have had thinner walls than your average stocker. They often bored a dozen or so blocks before they found a good one, which didn't go thru to the water jacket.
6. I have seen a picture of the CWC casting logo, which David Hayward has mentioned, but that was many moons ago & I'm damned if I can locate it now. You could understand how it could be mis-read as CWO.
7. I've never seen anything in official literature or in the flesh to prove the existence of a Canadian block.
8. If I was building a performance Grey motor nowadays, I would find a good EJ block. As others have said it is 15 years younger, most likely would have 15 years less water corrosion damage & made using more improved techniques than in 1948.

Regards Dr Terry (Bebbington)

Hello again. It looks like you posted while I was posting.

Yes, all these early engines did let go, they only had 4 main bearings, but contrary to popular belief, ALL Grey cranks were forged. Nobody back then was capable of producing modern nodular cast iron cranks, forged ones were what everyone used.

Yes, I've seen nothing to suggest the existence of any Scottish Grey cranks either.

I know many Holdens over the years have had longer stroke Vauxhall cranks adapted to suit & maybe they are made in Scotland.

I see no reason why GM-H would need to import blocks or cranks, because in those days (unlike now) Australia was one of the world leaders in metal technology. GM-H's input to the war effort (in WWII) surprised many, especially the Yanks & the Poms. During the 1930 when Larry Hartnett first came on board, he was amazed to see that we weren't just a 'colonial outpost', but ha the capability of building a complete car from the ground. This was one of the main reasons that the Government gave GM-H the nod to build the 48-215 in the first place.

Regards Dr Terry

Nice work, Terry - appreciate your comments and experience on this.

Since the last time this topic had a run (10 years ago!) I had the very great pleasure and opportunity to discuss racing grey motors with Des West, who still holds the record for the fastest grey motor down Conrod Straight :D

He also says it's a myth. His take on it was whilst the cylinders in a grey motor appear to be lined up to the naked eye, they are "as crooked as buggery" if measured accurately.

His secret to consistently getting good blocks for racing was to oversize the bore based on where it should be, not where it was. Most blokes just drilled out the existing hole, and as a result would wind up with a too-thin wall at some point.

In Des' opinion, the whole 'some blocks bore out better than others' is simply a function of which block-boring machine they went through, and how straight the bores were that you started with.

And that seems pretty reasonable to me. ;)

cheers
RET

Thanks very much, Terry, for a comprehensive run-down on things as you've found them...

I don't see how anyone can contradict what you've posted here. But I'm sure Nicko would still do so!

You still have not explained the Leeches comment?

Good point RET.

Anyone who has used an old fashioned boring bar & can see how it's done today with something like a Sunnen hone would appreciate the problem.

I was having a phone conversation with Ray Bell yesterday & another point I mentioned to him was that every knowledgeable 'old' race engine guy that I spoke to on this topic had the same take on it as Des. They said it was a myth they had heard of somewhere it time, but had no idea how it originated.

Dr Terry

Who made the WEY rocker covers is as big a mystery. We know they exist, but who or what is WEY?
I think you guys would have a better chance finding a Tasmanian Tiger than a Canadian grey block.
Regards
Alex

I thought that one was solved: Waggott Engineering Yagoona.

cheers
RET

Loose speculation at best.
Regards
Alex

What about the mystery of "Leeches" ?

This has probably been on here before, It's a tribute to Jack Myer by his family

It mentions a colaboration Jack had with Merv Waggott in developing the double overhead cam grey motor

Lots of info and pictures over 3 pages followed by more pics
http://aussieroadracing.homestead.com/Jack-MyersP1.html

Gary

Interesting article, very innocent days. I see a reference to Jack competing at the Silverdale Hill Climb Track on page 3, believe it or not the track is still there, or at least it was in 2000. I rode around it on a trail bike at that time and it was in surprisingly good condition.

Great link  Gary
My uncle lived opposite the surfers track and I remember going over there as a kid to watch the races and the smash up derby
Nick

Maybe not RET, I have to agree with Alex on that one, it's only an educated guess.

Merv Waggott's workshop was located at Mayvic St Greenacre, which is a good distance from Yagoona.

'W E' could still be Waggott Engineering, but what does the 'Y' signify ?

Dr Terry

Yagoona?

My personal opinion is its not waggott engineering, i can remember reading an article in an old sports car world mag i think it was that broke down the initials and waggott wasnt there but im stuffed if i can find the article again.

Sorry...

When I posted that there was a whole bunch of yellow squares on the forum page warning about bandwidth usage and 'leaches'.

Now to offer some more broadband usage, here are pics sent to me indirectly from Norm Darwin:

This is the first Australian-built prototype:

(http://imageshack.us/a/img812/4701/0213prototypeholden.jpg)

The inset enlargement of the engine is blown up further here:

(http://imageshack.us/a/img705/2018/0213cwcblockinprototype.jpg)

And here is a prototype engine, casting date 19th August 1946, with the CWC name clearly shown:

(http://imageshack.us/a/img541/228/0213cwcblockupclose.jpg)

This picture is from his book. He explains the 'H196' to be the casting date, 'H' for August (8th month), '19' for the 19th and '6' for 1946.

And from another contact I have this photo of Charlie McCarron's engine from Canowindra, this is in body No 46, it's engine No 1055 (numbers started at 1001):

(http://imageshack.us/a/img259/7472/0213frrdholdencasting.jpg)

Note that the casting number no longer is prefixed by an 'X' (experimental?) and it's tidier, moved a little to the right and the sevens are a slightly different shape.

Whoa that's early

At least we know what the leeches thing is

Yes, it's early all right...

I'm hoping to get a couple more before too long. And the leeches are still there on one of the other threads, so what's the deal with them?

(http://imageshack.us/a/img824/6623/0213frfefcleeches.jpg)

They were worse than this the other day!

 ??? ??? ???
Never seen em

RE: Leeches
This article may help you understand a bit more on "Leeches".
http://www.buffyguide.com/webmasters/directlink.shtml ($2)
There are some naughty people out there. >:(
Cheers,
Prof. Grey

The only thing I want to know about the leeches is how they get there, where they are from...

That doesn't mention them at all.

RE: Leeches

The following is taken directly from the article:

What is direct linking?   Direct linking is when you display an image from one site on a different site (such as on your own site, or on a forum or blog). If the site you are direct linking to is yours, there is nothing wrong with this. But if you are direct linking to a site that is not yours, it is bandwith theft (also called hot linking/hotlinking, remote linking, remote loading, or leeching).  

Therefore, would it not follow that someone who engages in "leeching" is a leech?

If you are seeing the leeches on your posts, but nobody else is seeing them, I think someone is sending you a pretty severe message. (not me!  ;D)

The 'leech' messages are not in my posts...

Wow. I haven't seen that leeches artwork in a *long* time. I did that, back in the day when bandwidth was costing us a lot more than it does now, and there were a lot of people hotlinking to images on fefcholden.org.au

I'm amazed that you're seeing it, though, and no-one else. That suggests you've got some links to some pretty ancient stuff, or your internet access is through a proxy that does something very weird. Next time you do see it, can you PM me the address of the page you saw it on?

cheers
RET

RET, when it's in the mood, it's on every page I open. Including the one where I'm typing this response right now!

It came up again on this one:

http://fefcholden.org.au/forum/index.php/board,35.0.html

But I would suggest that any page I open on this forum right now will be full of the leeches!

Ray, I'd suggest your ISP is doing something weird, the URL you posted was for a board smiley and the screen grabs showed normal board formatting images.
Try sending some screen caps and URLs to your ISPs helpdesk and see what they say  :-\

I currently have several pages of at least five forums open, singular pages of several more.

But this is the only one where I'm having this kind of problem. Or any kind of problem for that matter.

As I type this I see three smileys in a row, then our mate the leech, then all the rest of the smileys.

I've removed the leech-imposing code from the server. You should never suffer the curse of leeches again. :)

Maybe the leeches ate the canadian blocks  ::) :o ???

Dean.

I went to Bankstown Technical College with Merv Waggott's son in the mid Sixties & their workshop was in Greenacre.

I also lived near by.

John

No 2 Mayvic Street, wasn't it?

And Ken Waggott was in Canterbury Road at Belmore, right?

Even further from Yagoona!

My memory of their locations, however, only goes back to the mid-sixties.

Thanks RET, that's great.

Back in the fifties I served my time with Don Mackay who was a very well known speedway car owner. At the time Ray Revell and Andy McGavin were driving Don's cars.
We always sourced early numbered blocks for our speedway cars and Don would bore them out to 3 1/4 inches and I don't remember having to throw away any blocks.
In the late fifties I purchased a very early engine with a four digit engine number starting with 6 which I intended to fit in my FE but it is still in my shed.
Mal.

Mal, that's interesting...

It would be good to check that block out with a sonic tester. My nephew has a block at his workshop that's been bored to the same and he's sonic tested that one and found it to be sound. He had a buyer for it but they've not come back.

Hi Ray,
My block hasn't been bored, still 3 inches plus wear also crank appears to have standard size slipper bearings.
Mal

Shhhh!

You don't want all the rabids on here chasing after it, do you?

I would sell if offered a fair price.

Mal.

In the past week I have had confirmation that they had a Canadian block and it actually had "Made in Canada" cast into it.

The story goes that it was cast in Detroit and shipped to Aus via Canada with 149 other blocks to avoid customs tax.

I'm inclined to believe this man and I will be visiting him shortly to hear more.

I was the biggest skeptic the Canadian block until now.

The legend continues.

Hmmm...

As people who have seen the Muskegon blocks have never mentioned this, I would initially suspect that the 'Made in Canada' part of the story applies to the logo.

Not sure just keeping the legend aline'  Here is the exact comment

 I beg to differ on the blocks at least , and therefore maybe the cranks.Speaking to Ian Shugg today he believes that the first 200 blocks were made in Canada,so why were the cranks not made in Germany given that the Grey is a German Opel (or GM Germany ) design. I certainly had the only Canadian block I have ever seen in the early 70's and it had cast in it "Made in Canada",somebody had milled the caps and bolted strongbacks on and as a junior engineer I didnt think the caps would be strong enough and I didnt have enough money for steel caps and a line bore and after tripping over it for 5 years and offering it to all and sundry (most of who agreed about the caps) it went to the tip on a clean up day!! Pity I never took any photos of that cast in script ,but it was certainly there!!

There's no 'Made in Canada' on this one...

(http://imageshack.us/a/img541/228/0213cwcblockupclose.jpg)

...and it's a genuine imported block with the CWC logo on it.

Who's is that one?  Is it still around to take more photos?

I can ask exactly where the "Made in Canada" was on the block see what he says.

I want to believe....

That photo is of the engine in the prototype car... go back a couple of pages for all the pics...

As for Germany and Opel, I don't think the Holden engine was anything like their stuff. A little more like the Vauxhall, but even then it was more like a baby Chev.

And what was Germany's production capacity like in 1946/7 after their factories had been being bombed for all those years?

Look familiar - this is a forties Chev engine. Clearly where the Holden grey came from(http://tapatalk.imageshack.com/v2/14/10/31/6a04b49188dbad9b1090ac10ab94a402.jpg)

Ken


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

Opel

(http://tapatalk.imageshack.com/v2/14/10/31/70dae8a1dd8a2e8d48ab216a61bf4250.jpg)

Looks to be very similar if not the same engine exactly. The holden engine has some obvious departures from this design but is from the same family

Ken

I've been following this thread on Facebook as well as here, and I'm with Ray Bell - I just cannot see how Opel could have been in any position to produce engines or components in any quantity for some far-flung GM outpost immediately following the war. Or why. It just makes no sense. I think it's more likely that the Opel engine is based on the same design as the Chev engine, and it's the ancestor of both the Opel and the grey.

But I get into enough arguments on Facebook without starting one on mythical Canadian Blocks :D

cheers
RET

If you have a read of the Wikipedia page on Opel ($2), it's pretty clear this theory must be bunkum.

A few things worth noting:
1. Opel were taken over by GM in 1929, the same time as Holden.
2. They were seized by the German government "shortly after the war began", and almost certainly by 1942.
3. Opel were manufacturing engine parts for German bombers and got themselves bombed to oblivion by the Allies. In 1945 they produced no vehicles at all.
4. Half their manufacturing capacity was basically stolen by the Russians, by virtue of one of their factories being within the Russian controlled area.
5. It wasn't until July 1946 that the first Opel Blitz rolled out of the rebuilt Rüsselsheim factory.
6. GM did not resume control of Opel until 1 Nov 1948.

I realise this thread is conflating the history of Canadian and German GM engines, but there's just no way that any part of the Holden engine came from Germany.
And in my opinion, not from Canada either.

 Very interesting reading on a subject full of conjecture!.  Here's one for the purists. I have in my collection, a NOS FB......EH Clock.  It was in a cardboard box with MADE IN BELGIUM, stamped on it. Just pondering where the BOSCH components on the greys originated?  old-blu

As I understand it, early Holden grey motors had Lucas or Delco-Remy electrical components. Use of Bosch parts came a fair bit later.


But perhaps I should have said "Opel", rather than "Germany". :)

Hi to all contributors to this thread.

Here is a bit more trivia to consider.
It is very true that the Holden grey bears more than a passing resemblance to the 40's Chevs and Opels (apart from the obvious, such as position of the distributor), and this just serves to show that GM has always been a world player.
...BUT... I have never seen a Holden type oil filler cap on a Chev.(although I'm not infallible)
Yet here we see them on a 1939 Opel Kapitan and wartime/post-war Opel Blitzes.

(http://www.classiccars-forsale.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/04/01Opel_Kapitan1.jpg)

(http://afrikakorps.forumcrea.com/img/avatars/afrikakorps/big/2421_s5001112_copy.jpg)

Verrry interesting.....

Also, the CWC grey blocks were cast by Campbell, Wyant, and Cannon Foundry Company, Muskegon, Michigan, USA, about 150 miles from Detroit.
 

Are you able to re-post the second picture.

The thing that I keep coming back to is if there never was a Candian block then where did the myth start form?

Someone sent me Dons number by SMS today so I might give him a bell hear his side aswell.

Here it is guys, not being able to preview is a pain in the butt.


1942 Afrikakorps Opel Blitz
(http://afrikakorps.forumcrea.com/img/avatars/afrikakorps/big/2421_s5001112_copy.jpg)

Cheers, Prof.

More...
Post-war Opel Firetruck
(http://blog.hemmings.com/wp-content/uploads//2010/03/Opelfiretruck_03.jpg)

Prof.

Hi guys. Perhaps someone who was into Greys in the 60's got their engines mixed up because 327 chev engines were Canadian and the Canada factory produced all the off shore blocks and other makes of car other than chevs in Canada.

Come on guys... if you want to post on the thread, please read it from the beginning so you don't ask questions that have been answered 11 years ago!

As for the Opel connection, the point made was not about the design or even common parts, it was that it is extremely unlikely that Opel had the capacity to make any bits for Holdens at the time.

guys
I have spoken in length to Don Loffler just last year on this Canadian topic and to his belief he is not aware of any Canadian block, but he is aware of the topic and the continued banter.
Brett

All Holdens, up until early 1953 had Delco-Remy starters & generators etc. After that time Australian-made Bosch units were fitted.

Australian-made Lucas came along as an alternate supplier to Bosch in the 12 volt era (sometime in the FE/FC period).

Dr Terry

...Hi fellas  ..  i've just joined the forum this arvo and am interested in this topic, as are obviously quite a few others...

.....over a 20 odd year period, i've managed to do my own fairly exhaustive research on the early Holden/engine subject and to that end have managed to find myself with the remains/wreck of the Pt Pirie dealer (Midway Motors) 1948 ''announcement'' Holden which has the Woodville body assembly number 149 and from all accounts was the 100th Holden produced....

...in tandem with this and the prototype/pilot study, i have kept my field of interest to the 1948 only manufacture of these earliest of Holdens....an extremely fascinating subject. In the course of these studies the old ''Canadian Block'' chestnut was always present, or lurking very close in the background...

...after a vast search, the earliest engine i have has the number 2265 and is a fairly non-descript Grey with a date code indicating production in about April 1949 from memory...it is very early all the same considering they started at engine number 1001...and i have never seen anything that would make me think that any of our engines weren't produced right here....

....What has to be stated i feel is that these engines were only ever the product of GM-H Fishermans Bend. there were the CWC prototype Michigan engines which numbered about ten from all accounts, but beyond that it was all local production. What is probably not well known is that these very earliest locally produced jobs were very much a hand built affair...balanced, blueprinted, toleranced etc. etc. to make sure that there would be a minimal failure rate...especially in the hands of the initial dealers demonstrating these things to a wary publc...

.....these very earliest engines have tiny stamped numbers close to a lot of the machined areas, or in fact on a machined surface... relating to that particular crank, cam, piston/combustion chamber or valve gear. the (ex?) Phil Munday (8-1157-M engine number 1126) engine is riddled with these numbers....along with the engine number being stamped very close to the end of the pad, locked in by a hand stamped asterick.....a very GM thing back in the day to avert any false warranty claims, as the cast in date coding on the very earliest Holden engines was quite abysmal....check the 1055 number and note the asterick in the picture....


anyway i'm open to be howled down, although i can substantiate a lot of my studies for anyone so interested.....i just reckon the whole Canadian Block story is bunkum....cheers fellas

Surely those tiny number stamped on machined surfaces were the identifier of the person who machined that part?

This is a technique used by Peugeot at least until the 1980s. Every machinist had their stamp and marked each part they machined.

hello Ray  ..  at least on the head the series of small stamped numbers are adjacent to the valves and external to the rocker cover just above the head bolts  ...possibly indicating shims or valve spring tension?....very open to any thoughts

Certainly a better question to throw before the masses than anything about Canada...

I don't believe it exists either. None of the stories check out in relation to production timeframes nor is this engine in the same family of any American like engine so it's very unlikely Canada would go it alone. They mainly produced the kits for cars assembled here as chev and handled the smaller overseas and different programs from my research. Ppl should be able to talk on a forum about what they like I think and if ppl are sick of a topic then they need not follow. But there are younger or newer forum users that like to do their own research or experience things for themselves. I think ken has explained before that a lot of these so called thicker casts etc can just be that if you were into early mods on a 10 year old grey motor then it most probably able to be bored more cos it wasn't very old. Same could be true for the ek or fb blocks or whichever it is but these motors are all pretty ancient and get thinner with age.

Well the a rumor heard is that the blocks were cast in the USA, stamped "Made in Canada" and shipped from Canada to avoid import taxes.

Like I have said before "I want to believe", but there is no proof.

.....from reading a lot along with the research and studies, it appears if anything the Grey motor was based on the Buick style of engine...especially in the oiling system,which apparently is not the same as the Chevs......it may be worth pursuing that angle, and see what comes out in the wash.....

...about 10-12 years ago i spoke to Noel Thompson of Malvern SA. He was one of the GMAC travelling reps in 1948-49 and would go all over South Australia visiting the various Holden dealers... firstly see how things were with their hire purchased demonstrators, and secondly to make sure the cars weren't getting too knocked about in some of the rougher areas....

... He related to me the story of how when travelling in a Holden at sustained high speeds (up to 90 MPH on some occasions) the engines would very gradually climb in temperature and eventually the temp light would display. It was at the point the boffins realised that because of the thicker cylinder walls, the engines in certain situations were acting like a heat sink....hence the decision was made to reduce the wall thickness a little....which seemed to have the desired result....that was his story and i feel no need to refute it

...i s'pose a novel idea would be to simply weigh a pre 37,000 engine numbered bare block and compare that to one not far beyond that cut-off number.... just to see if there was a great heap of difference in weight...a much later grey block had more ribbing and strengthening, so that comparison would probably be negated....cheers fellas

Pretty sure the heat problem is cavitation in the water pumps.  Greys suffered from this at sustained high revs.

There's also a harmonic vibration that kicks in around the 6800rpm mark that's prone to cause crank failure. You can push past it if you're game and your engine is up to it. (So I'm told.)

It's 6200 so stay above or below it

...Hi GreyFc  ..  i hope i'm not looking like a smarty.... i s'pose high speed in an old FX Holden may not neccessarily relate to the overly high engine revs of a good Grey in a different application....especially with those 15'' wheels and balloon tyres they ran on back in the day??....cheers

Now now boys,
Don't stray too far off the Canadian track or someone will get miffed, if you know what I mean. ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D

Well all I can say is every single time I see a grey for sale I ask for pics of Tue block.  I'll either have a very large collection of.images and the myth will remain or I'll find one and no one will believe me haha.  ( seriously I ask each time I see an add )

...Hi again GreyFc  ..  this is the guts of the problem....where did the myth start from....

...to me, hopefully this is the start to the end of the whole convoluted story...and i reckon a solution is at hand whereby the Nasco parts people have a lot to answer for...

...i will relay two examples of innocent parts counter people perpetuating a myth in a quite accidental fashion...one involves the FX (48-215) Holden and the other is to do with the Aussie Atkinson trucks of all things....

...i'm pretty sure the ''FX'' moniker has been well documented as being the new front end with telescopic shock absorbers...tha Atkinson connection is no less intriguing...

...we had the plastic cab Atkinson trucks produced in Australia from 1966...a uniquely Aussie invention that was well loved by many truck operators. These things were produced up until about 1980 as the Mk 1, 2 and 3 when all of a sudden the steel cab 4870 series model International style Atkinson became the norm...

...all of a sudden you had to quote the model number, and not the mark, to the parts people because the new model made it hard for the spare parts guys to know EXACTLY what Atkinson you were talking about....the myth being there were never any Mk 1, 2 or 3 Atkinsons. Years later these early Mk numbers are being somewhat disregarded as being bunkum because the model numbers are so much more informative....

...my suspicion is that the Nasco parts people had to differentiate between the Lucas equipped greys and the Delco Remy equipped ones...not forgetting there was only one model of Holden at the time in mid 1953, and now there was a new model with a different prefix coming through in the form of the ''FJ'' very soon.......

... we all know that the Delco equipment was produced by ''The McKinnon Industries Limited....... Canada'' etc. etc......plain to see on every Delco distributor, starter, regulator and generator up to engine number (approx) 104994...about middle 1953.......from here it's a short step for these blokes at the counter to be discussing the Canadian equipped earlies as averse to the British or locally equipped ones...it's not to hard to see the whole thing being abbreviated as time went on....especially considering this was only roughly four or five years after normal usage of these cars in the general publics' hands...

....to me, i s'pose the next ripping part of the yarn will be to find out when the first usage of the term ''Canadian Block'' came into being in print form from way back in the day....may have to check out my old Aussie hot rod magazines from way back to 1966!.....cheers fellas

I have heard the theory that "Canadian" relates to "Delco-Remy" accessories before, and it's more believable than most others. The mythical "Canadian" is probably a conflation of the early=better block story with the type of electrical accessories.

There's a fair chance that when someone triumphantly turns up a "Made in Canada" emblazoned on some engine, it will be on the generator or starter, not the block itself.

Nice work, detective. Appreciate your input.

cheers
RET

G'day Detective,

Interesting (and rather cool) theory on the McKinnon Industries/Delco Remy link to the Canadian block myth. The 327 Chev motor I have in my EK wagon was made by McKinnon at their St Catherines, Ontario plant. This may be as close as we get to ever seeing a Canadian block in an early Holden  ;D
(http://i929.photobucket.com/albums/ad136/V8EKwagon/DSC02209_zpsb59e6763.jpg) ($2)

Cheers,
Harv (appreciator of early Holden history)

...g'day Harv  .. i think i should've been mentioning Bosch rather than Lucas for the ancillaries, as from what i understand the Lucas stuff only came along later on after the FJ....except the headlights ?

Yeah my 327 is same. They came in kit form and assembled here. There was also Studebakers that had the four barrel manifold (same as hk monaro monaro), crappy open chamber heads and the good steel crank. I'm sure that's how someone got their wires crossed. There's a comprehensive website and no mention. It was easier to Start urban legends in those days.

See what you can see.  I have boxes of old mags and most of the grey articles I have already scanned in.  Have not come accross anything to proove/disprove  However... this article seams to state that Malcome has a Candadian block.  I will call him today and ask as when ever we chat I forgot to ask  http://www.thegreymotor.com/2014/08/performace-holden-grey-motor-build.html ($2)

It really seems to have started in the 60's in Canberra. Advertising for them was mainly confined to there. It's not the first time that urban legends came out of Canberra lol.

They have their own myths over there.
http://jalopnik.com/358981/left-hand-drive-vauxhall-velox-boggles-canadian-minds

Perpetuated in 78 in Canberra with advert for "2" Canadian blocks! Gee. I wonder how much more ppl paid for them.

http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/110899791?searchTerm=%22canadian%20block%22%20grey%20holden&searchLimits=

http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/122120220?searchTerm=%22canadian%20block%22%20%22grey%2 0motor%22&searchLimits=l-category=Advertising

http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/131783593?searchTerm=canadian%20holden%20grey&searchLimits=l-category=Advertising|||l-availability=y|||l-australian=y

Hi detective, welcome aboard.

The origin of the FX moniker is as intriguing as the Canadian block myth.

I'm now on the 'wrong side' of 60 years of age & I clearly remember the use of the term FX in Repco type parts catalogues as early as the mid to late 1960s.

We were always told that its origin was in used car newspaper classified adverts. FX was a convenient abbreviation for all pre-FJ models. Up to FJ times, used Holdens were advertised variously as 1949, 1951 or whatever. Apparently FX was neater (read cheaper) because the classified charged by the character number. (F = Holden series & X = unknown).

I hadn't heard of the FX (front x-member) theory until very recent times. I've not seen any substantial evidence (in print) of either theory, so therefore don't stand behind either version 100%, but it is interesting to hear how myths develop in totally different ways in different localities

Dr Terry

Hi Dr_Terry,

I spoke to Don Loffler about this a couple of years ago, and he is 100% convinced the name originates from the architectural drawings for the new front crossmember introduced late in the 48-215's run. The terminology appears on the drawings (which he has copies of, or has at least personally sighted - they might be stored at Adelaide Library?). These clearly predate the introduction of the FJ, and any consequential need to distinguish between models, by Repco, in classified ads or anywhere outside GM-H.

I'm sold.

cheers
RET

(http://i60.tinypic.com/whihdg.jpg)

(http://i61.tinypic.com/2hi7z2s.jpg)

Hi RET.

Yes, I too have spoken to Don on this topic on several occasions, however my point is, while the used car advert & the various parts catalogues have been in the public domain for decades, the front x-member drawing only came to light in very recent times.

How did it grow from a presumedly, a secret in-house design document (front x-member) to common industry usage.

As I said, I'm not 'sold' 100% on either version.

Dr Terry

...Hi all  ..  and thanks for the welcome Dr Terry....i guess the whole idea of a so called Canadian Block can be an isolated and very parochial thing when you look at the issue in a geographical sense....

...who knows?...the moniker may have originated in Tasmania or Western Australia when after a few years down the track there were far fewer of these Delco equipped engines to be seen, and were automatically seen as something ''special'' ??...

....i keep harking back to the spare parts blokes and the way they adapt a turn of phrase for their colleagues to help identify something that would assist them ''in house''....next thing you know all the blokes at say Nasco in Melbourne have found themselves a neat fit to identify these earliest of engines/cars and beyond that the word gets out...

...i know i'm just shootin' the breeze, but to me it makes an awful lot of sense....cheers fellas

We see the same thing (turn of phrase becoming common-usage and the original meaning lost) happening now via eBay... everything Holden-derived is either NASCO, NOS or from a monaro  ::).

Cheers,
Harv

How true. I think that it's due in part, to the Australian 'Cultural Cringe', where many are of the belief that anything imported is better in some way than something produced locally. Our auto industry was in its infancy in the early 50s & many refused to believe than we could have produced something as good as the FX Holden back then, some parts just had to be imported, didn't they ?? 


The funny part is, that while these earlier 'thicker-walled' blocks were sought after for racing purposes, the extra wall thickness was a handicap in day-to-day usage for the average driver.

Dr Terry.

For my 2 bobs worth, I feel the Canadian block is a misnomer apart from hearsay there appears to be no tangible proof as to it's existence. On the subject of the "FX", many of my older friends and I have long touted the source of it's origin cam from a spare parts person from a dealership( not known) became frustrated with people buying parts for the FJ only to find they would not fit and then return them and ask why?. Upon questioning the owner it was found that most of them had in fact owned 48/215s, so the FX tag was given to anything before the FJ.
Regards, Jim

...i s'pose you have to look at this type of scenario at the spare parts counter early in 1954....

.....''Hi mate...i need some parts for my Holden''...

.....''yeah mate.. what year is she?''...

.....''1953 mate''.


.....the Holden in question could've been a fairly new FJ.. an interim (air ride) late 1953 FX.. an early 1953 FX with the older suspension...or even a very late 1952 FX first registered in 1953...possibly still with the Delco Remy stuff !!...

.....the average motorist in them days never referred to their Holden by its model, so as can be seen there would have been a degree of confusion in that late 1953-early/mid 1954 era. Beyond that it really wasn't an issue, as they all came to be known by their model designation as time went by ...but i s'pose something had to be hastily done at that point in time......

There are probably a few guys out there who are more adept at searching the web than I. Give this a try.

I was talking to a guy last night who told me that the earliest usage of the term 'FX' in print is around 1955 -1956 in Melbourne used car classifieds by the Holden dealer Kevin Dennis.

If newspaper web searches are your thing, somebody may uncover something more than just here-say on this subject.

Dr Terry

Hi all. I'm enjoying learning more about the cultural aspect of the industry being a fairly young bloke. The same thing happened with the "250 2v" head on xa and xb falcons. it did exist for sure but many ppl called all sorts of home made jobbies the same thing when actually they were home made mods like sumps etc. But it helped sell for higher price.

I modified this post. The Repco parts book of 1957 is another souce of original use of the fx prefix. Can anyone provide evidence of this?

I didn't mention anything about pre-FJ.

It was put to me that the reason 'FX' was introduced, was we had FJ & then FE, so what do you call the first model series ? As I said it was 1955 or 56 but had to be post-FE intro.

Has anyone searched Kevin Dennis Holden adverts from around 1956.

Dr Terry

Yeah I didn't go back and read your post sorry, that's ok, but the fe came out in 56 so I should have written pre fe, but his name appears nowhere but if you know the exact name of the dealership or a motto that would make it easier. His name doesn't appear in any adds though.

By rights it should be GC  :o

Which is exactly why we know that GMH didn't invent the code FX.

Ken

Well, it's exactly why it should not be considered representative of the entire 48-215 series.

I assert that there is no reason to presume that it is anything other than coincidence that there is an F in FJ, FE, FC (that stands for "five") and an F in FX (as shorthand for Front X-member). And it is this coincidence that is responsible for all the confusion.

How's that grab you? :)

I tell you what, it's a stroll down memory lane to re-read this entire thread from the beginning. :D

But it's not & that's the whole point. The general usage of FX is not shorthand for the 48-215 series or the just the late ones with the new suspension, it also includes the 50-2106 ute.

In other words anything pre-FJ, with a vertical-bar grille.

There are many 'purists' out there who poo-poo the term FX, but I've grown to like it.

Dr Terry

.....g'day all  ..  the initial discussion about the term ''FX'' between Don and myself came about from when years ago i was at an auction in Geelong where a couple of earlies were to be sold...

... On the day i was snooping through an old shed which had a big pile of newspapers in it from around 1960 and thought it would be interesting to just see if the term ''FX'' was present in that era...

...i can't be sure of the exact date of this particular paper, but there was an ad for an FX Holden being sold by Reg Smith Motors (father of Garry and Warren Smith, Holden dealers' fame).  I reported to Don this finding which led to Don eventually going through the State Library of Victoria, on a mission to track down the earliest possible use of the term...

....knowing Don he would have been very meticulous and the search would've been an exhaustive one, so when he published his finding of Friday 12th Feb 1960 for the very first use....you can be pretty sure there was no other earlier published use of the term.....

...so i s'pose you could say with a fair degree of confidence that the term ''FX'' really did originate from the various used car dealers and from them, the general public caught on and adopted the term...

...another clue to as how common the usage of the term had become is borne out by the fact that i was born in 1959 and was always interested in cars from my very earliest recollections...say 5 or 6 years old (about 1965) and the term FX was the only term i ever heard from any of Dads mates .....cheers

I actually thought the first print reference was in a repco catalogue? In 1957? But the cross member theory seems more plausable as the first reference because if that terminology from those in the parts industry did not exist, then as if the public are gunna know back then what the he'll an fx was? So there would 've more articles about the fx term in the late 50s.....surely. I would like to see the catalogue or a link that shows the cross member. I want to see how it's written cos a "cross member" may have been written as "x member" to explain the part itself 😜

...that's cool with me too fe350  ..  i would love to see these early spare parts books as it brings up a fine point of difference in this amazing journey.....  

.....the catalogue details and spare parts firms would've been considered as ''In House'' and their listings to the motor trade regarded as inside information, whereas the general public use of the term probably came along with those 1960 used car ads

I wonder if Harv has this?

...well here's something from left field!!  ..  google ''Western Australia motor race results 1959'' and you will see the results of the six hour race at Caversham with the result quoted by ''The Visor June 1959'' and ''Sports Car World August 1959'' showing a ''Holden FX'' driven by Jack Ayres coming 4th with 172 laps and a ''Holden FX'' coming 7th driven by Dave Sullivan on 171 laps   !!!....

....so we have June 1959...... it's possible that this moniker filtered down from the race car fraternity...who after all, in a lot of cases were car dealers as well!.....

Does Don have pics on his pages?

...there are no pics of the advert in his book (She's a beauty revised edition..page 266) and i can't recall if i gave the ad i saw to him...??

Fact is, there aren't many adverts even in 1960. If the term was ever going to come to being, then surely it wouldn't have taken that long to be adopted if it was to differentiate certain upgrades. If describing an upgraded model, the adverts selling cars say "1954 Holden (late model)" rather than modern ways like "series 2". But again, this could be open to interpretation and conjecture. Ppl need to back up their claims with pics. I think Don has a Facebook page. Would take a few minutes to snap it and upload. I grew up in Elizabeth in Adelaide for a while and I'm sure the old workers talked about the fx reference as being from the 50's.

(http://tapatalk.imageshack.com/v2/14/11/07/b257557fb79211cb280874089d9488d9.jpg)

http://www.terrywalkersplace.com/Results/1959-all.pdf

Problem is, it refers to 2 fe holdens in the same doc.

...the Reg Smith advert is real and Trove is not very helpful with providing those ads from back in the day it seems...

.....all up though, i'm pretty chuffed ATM that this snippet has come out of WA racing car history....

But this forum banter definitely supports that the race car was an fx!

I have proof that the fx is not an fe typo. Do you wanna see it.

....yeah please  ..  bring it all on!...

This only proves that it's a humpy and not a typo. http://forums.autosport.com/topic/147044-cartoons-by-rod-waller/page-7

Repco 22 explains

But I really don't care about this topic too much, was much more interested in the Canadian grey. When I read about cars of the 40's and 50's there's often reference on the queens fleet being upgraded by Canadians or produced in Canada so I have wondered if it was just cos Canada was being seen as socially progressive that added to the tall poppy thing.

...the Reg Smith advert is real and Trove is not very helpful with providing those ads from back in the day it seems...

.....all up though, i'm pretty chuffed ATM that this snippet has come out of WA racing car history....


I have no doubt about used car places using the term, but I very much doubt they didn't get it from someone else, like their workshop bloke talking to a parts supplier etc and then borrowing the term.

.... sorry for being off topic for so long....my apologies...still great info all the same...

...BTW  ..  i couldn't get that cartoon link to work?....

http://forums.autosport.com/topic/147044-cartoons-by-rod-waller/page-7

What's an 'FX'?

When I worked in radio, 'FX' was the abbreviation for 'effects'. Is that it?
Ray, my gag has backfired bigtime. I can't believe I have to tell you the FX was the first Holden, the "humpy" 48/215 FX. The one before the FJ. You're supposed to have known that since you were in short pants. So, take two-- You're supposed to come in armed with that knowledge and in EH S4 vein, ask; "What's an ET?" Then I cleverly reply;
"Ex taxi!" Oh well, back to the drawing board! 
Dave Sullivan's winning FX really was an ex taxi and had been around the clock or around the world or something, a couple of times before he acquired it and breathed on it. It came to an unfortunate end when he hit a tree during a hillclimb, breaking the car in two.

Quoting the forum answer to a question.

...thanks fe350chev  ..  i've got the link now and googling Dave Sullivan shows up a pic of his FX in the 6 hour at Caversham (race car 40) in the images section....cheers

Ok, so this doesn't prove it was coined as an fx Holden so I'm enquiring how the source data is recorded by contacting the author.

Did some more looking and the driver was a farmer and farm supplies bloke as he had adverts in the paper. See how we go. It's too hot to do much else lol.

...i think the write up by Terry Walker will be quite correct because there are actual quotes from those two automotive journals for the six hour race at Caversham and elsewhere in that 1959 review...

...it also appears that both Dave Sullivan and Jack Ayres ran FE's earlier in the year then swung over to the FX's for the later race....hence i can see the logic in the differentiation between the two styles of Holden.....

Cos it's written and types up later though, doesn't mean fx was used that year unless he has original docs. U get what I mean.

Hi All  ..  hope everyone is having a lovely festive season and wish you all well for 2015.

...I've been like a dog with a bloody bone lately and just HAD to find out as much as i could about the "Canadian Block" issue and the lesser topic of the term "FX"...

...I conducted a fairly major search of "The Age" newspapers via Google News and seem to have come up with a somewhat definitive first date of Saturday August 8 1959 for a "Holden '53 FX model...495 pounds" being sold by Mentone Motors....this is a full 6 months before Don Lofflers discovery in the "Herald"  dated Feb 12 1960...(Don and I have had a chuckle about all this....where will it all end?)

....also I'm almost certainly sure that the "CWC" castings lived on (till that 37,000 odd engine number change) with only their numerals and letters removed and replaced by our own...but still using the original casting boxes initially made for the prototypes...possibly with some minor mods incorporated along the way. I could be totally wrong, but these assumptions seems reasonable to me....still no Canadian Blocks though  LOL

....We received all of the neccessary items, patterns and jigs for our own manufacture via ship in late 1946 which gave us time to set up the foundry and other assorted manufacturing facilities for the late 1948 introduction, so i could really see no need for us to have to invoke any Canadian connection to get us on our way......cheers fellas

Nice info.  I posed this question to my club and basically said there is no proof of the Canadian block but one guys says he has one.  I am going g there next week to have a look.  He says its at 3 1/4 so I'll take a vernia aswell

It doesn't really matter I don't think cos even if a block was cast better, most performance gains are in the heads, cam, valves and fuel systems I would have thought, so id rate a crossflow head way above a Canadian block. I'm sure it's ppl getting mixed up with McKinnon chev engines. I have been thinking outside the square a bit lately. Wouldn't it be good to start a "go fund me" grey engine fund and use the donations to reproduce an early crossflow head and all of the syndicate people who donate agree on a price so that the heads can be made as historic replicas. I still want to see the original parts book reference. I thought it was posted at some stage?

I like the the way you have presented this scenario. This sounds totally feasible that the CWC casting boxes should be used at Holdens, albeit with the mod that the GMH logo is transferred in to replace the CWC.
It reinforces the original argument about a changed block but adds a slightly different twist with your investigation.    Well done!
Also congrats on the FX find in 1959.
Ken

There is a guy that has access to the foundry to re cast xflow heads, side plate and tappet cover but needs 5 people to go in as it cost a lot.

I would be in on go fund me

Hi All  ..  Me again!! ;D....here is a wonderful snippet of info out of an article describing a visit by a journalist to Fisherman's Bend barely two weeks after the release of the Holden and written in "The Pastoral Review",  dated December 16 1948 with the heading  "The New Australian Car" ...

...out of a lengthy article comes this paragraph and I quote....

   "I purposely spent a lot of time in the foundry, which by the way is the most modern in the Southern Hemisphere and which was laid down at a cost of about 340,000 pound.  I made this thorough inspection because I had heard that IMPORTED CYLINDER BLOCKS WERE BEING USED.  Well, I witnessed the casting of cylinder blocks, from the pouring stage to the opening of the core box, and not only did I see cylinder blocks, but almost every other casting used on the car, in fact in a short space of time I saw fifty or sixty items leave the foundry for the various "finishing" departments and followed them along to the stage where anyone would have been pleased to have had them on the home mantelpiece, mounted on a nice piece of Blackwood.  They were a delight to the eye that appreciates a "high finish" in metal.

...end quote..

...as can be seen the Canadian Block rumours go right back to the very start!!....no wonder they have persisted for so long....cheers fellas