FE-FC Holden Discussion Forum

Hi Forum,

Just out of curiosity???

What the current stance with Vic roads with converting to a V8 from a FC grey stock?
I see a few with Chevs ,was this before laws had changed?

I've heard a few different things over the years.

Cheers,

Have a read through this , this is the latest copy , and will tell you everything you need to do



http://www.infrastructure.gov.au/roads/vehicle_regulation/bulletin/vsb_ncop.aspx

Unsure of what has changed since 2009 when I registered mine with a 253, but you'll need to start with an engineers certificate then RWC. Best to speak to an engineer first & they'll tell you what is needed.
cheers,  Leigh

Based on Rusty's link, it appears the conversion limit has been reduced to a max of 4400cc or approx.

Cheers

Ed

G,day Ed

This is the new formula .

Not sure what FC,s weigh but I guess they are similar to EK,s

Vehicles 1100kg +, Normally aspirated is original mass (kg)x 5 = max capacity in cc , 

But you need to talk to your engineer , there is a heap of stuff you are going to have to upgrade to get it passed with that size engine .

I spoke to a engineer in the ACT today. The formula in the act is the same as in Victoria. The weight that they use for the FC is 1060kg. This limits the conversion to 4240cc. Anything beyond this and you will need to go have it classified as an ICV (Individually Constructed Vehicle)  This means that you will have to comply with all current AD/R regulations as it will essentially become a 2011 car (or 2012 or whenever you front up to the engineer).

I was advised that to get it comprehensively  engineered to an ICV would be approximately $3500.00 If the vehicle didn't pass and needed reinspection then that would be extra.

Keith

Rusty,

Looks like that 253 lurking in the back corner of my garage may be of some use now!

Hope Mark gets his FB wagon through in time.

Good info Keith I guess NSW will follow suit soon?

Cheers

Ed

That's a bugger , thought they would weigh about the same , EK,s  scape over the 1100kg cut off , they are making it harder every year.

Ed, You need to get busy with the 253  ;)

Forget the 253 Ed, go the V6 same amount of power for half the weight. ;D ;D ;D, Jack

Ed,

I don't know, If I had one that was a lot further along than I am, I would be doing everything that I could to get it registered before the laws are changed. It is probably inevitable, given that the guidelines have been changed by DOTAR and that they will probably go nationwide. Engineer that I spoke to, conceded that in his opinion, the laws were unfair, particulary in relation to the FE FC being under the 1100Kg mark when the FB EK make it over the line, yet are based on the same floorpan.

Keith

 In NSW from what I have been told by an engineer  is if you engage an engineer for your car before the new changes are implemented you will be given a time frame to finish your project before it has to comply with the proposed changes you may be given up to 12 months to complete your project and have it registered  under the old system  ......FC427....

I'd like to know how its possible to buy a 350 chev powererd motorbike thats fully adr compliant (google barbarian v8 chev motorbike to see the ad) And yet you cant put one in an fe/fc.

You can put a 350 chev into an FC, so long as you are prepared to have it registered as an Individually Constructed Vehicle. If you elect to go down this route then everything must be ADR compliant to the current ADR's at the time of inspection and registration.

The issue that I raised was the cost of engaging the engineer to ensure full compliance with the current ADR's. FC's are classified as being under 1100kg so therefore to fit a larger V8 than a 253 falls outside the guidelines. To modify a vehicle with an engine outside the guidelines will require certification from an engineer who will certify that not only does it meet the current ADR's but it is safe and has been constructed in such a manner that no part of the safety of the car has been compromised. Essentially to have a modified vehicle registered, that has been modified outside of the guidleines essentially means that not only is the car certified to make sure that the modifications are safe, but the whole car complies with the current ADR's

This is no doubt why the person who is selling the motorcycle with the 350 chev fitted states that the motorcycles are fully ADR compliant, because the only way to get them registered would be to register them as an individually constructed vehicle.

Keith

While we are on subject of bikes, how can most of the harleys be legally registered when the db levels emitted are far above any road car I've ever heard ??? I'm sure they must adhere to the 96 db rule as cars do?

I enquired recently wether it is ok to use a sc14 ( Toyota) supercharger on a 186 in an fc the answer is a strong no, due to the weight of the original vehicle. Even with extensive safety upgrades which increase the weight/ braking and strengthening. The biggest you can legally supercharge/turbo in a FC is a 179. But it's ok to put a V8. ??? ::)
Go figure. These are national guidelines. I enquired wether i can still do it with an engineers approval, again I was told no, they the engineers must adhere to the national guidelines.
So guys do your homework before you lift a spanner.
Stoopid isn't it >:( you can go out and buy some little jap crap with a turbo which weighs less and puts out more hp?   

Smithy,

I got a defect notice for a loud bike so it does happen. I went home, put the baffle in the pipe, got it inspected, removed baffle and rode again.  You can get away with alot more on a bike... I put USD forks on an old GSX1100, frame mods and late model wheels.. no engineers cert, just rego and ride. the rego guys no nothing about bikes.  My current dirt/supermoto is not roadworthy but the cops don't notice it has no mirrors, non ADR compliant, blinker, headlight, pipe etc etc.. and yes it wears a rego label and gets inspected yearly.  oh they did notice one thing.. the number plate was bent!

the SR20 into FC is looking better all the time!

Cheers

Ed

I reckon that's a brilliant idea, it makes sense when people get over the "can't transplant another brand motor" and "if it's not an 8, it don't rate" mentality  ::)

.. not to mention light weight and powerful!

I initially toyed with the idea of putting a turbo rotary into my FC, but installed a triple-webered 202 instead. I'm certain that I'd have far less rego hassles if I went for the rotary.  :-\

Ol_Girl_58

Probably the closest i have ever been to crapping myself was in a mazda 808 13B turbo it was the scariest ride in a car any gear as soon as it came on boost it let go i was in the back never again.

I just thought that I would look up the specs on this engine and came up with the following:

The "Black Top" S15 motor is the most powerful of the SR20DET engines, producing 250 horsepower at approximately 6,000 rpm.

I then checked on the table that is in the current DOTARS publication that allows for a conversion of 2.75 X the original weight of the car (1060kg), thus one would be legally allowed to fit a turbocharged (or supercharged) engine of up to 2915cc (2.75 X1060 = 2915)

So not only would the SR20 be within the guidelines so would the Nissan RB26DETT which gives the following figures (courtesy of Wikipedia)

The first 2.6 L RB26DETT featured twin-turbochargers and produced around 280 HP (206 kW) @ 6800 rpm and 260 ft•lb (353 N•m) @ 4400 rpm. The last series of the RB26DETT produced 280 PS (206 kW) @ 6800 rpm and 289 ft•lb (392 N•m) @ 4400 rpm. However, several stock (unmodified) engines have been dyno tested and reported to obtain closer to the 330 HP mark. The reason for this discrepancy is a gentlemen's agreement between Japanese automakers to limit the advertised horsepower of any vehicle to 280 PS (276HP). It is widely known for its strength and extreme power potential. It is not uncommon for 600 hp to be achieved without modification of the engine internals. With regular maintenance, many of these engines have been driven way past the 100,000 mile mark with a few heading toward 200,000 miles. With extreme modification, the RB26 motor is capable of power in excess of 1 megawatt (or over 1,340 hp).

I know that there are some on this forum that are going down this path and good luck to you. I just cannot see how an engine that produces this much power can be legal, yet a V8 that is a little larger in Cubic capacity than allowable, yet nowhere near half the horsepower, has to be registered as an Individually Constructed Vehicle.

Maybe I just need to do what Stinky advised and build a bridge and get over it  :-[

Not at all Keith your knowledge and research abilities are valued and much appreciated ;)

Your right in what you are saying and this is just anther example of what I was trying to point out with my little rant, the fact you can legally install an engine with an unmodified power potential such as the SR or RB
yet you cannot turbo or supercharge a 186 ??? ???
And re the bike comment, I've got nothing against our two wheeled brothers I just find it crazy that 99% of the hogs getting around ridden by non patch wearing or club affiliated riders would blow a db meter to pieces. These quite happily rumble past Joe blow officer booking mr public for a minor traffic infringement where one of us car modifiers would be pulled over in a heartbeat, have the car gone over with a fine tooth comb and leave with a canary if we were lucky.
The laws have got to change......

So Keith dont build a bridge and get over it

Build a bridgeport and get into it ;D

Dean

That's because you are not a Politician or a Bureaucrat :P

nice research there Keith.. enough to give me lots of ideas!

so I guess we'll be seeing some FEs or FC's at the drift track in the future?

Smithy,
About 10 years ago in NSW, they had a scheme to try get all loud bikes off the roads.  The NSW Police exploited a trivial part of the law which required all motorcycle pipes to be labelled with dB output.  Subsequently many riders, myself included got defected in a campaign targeting bikes.  The simple way to get around this was to stick a label on your pipe which stated the dB conformed to 96dB or simply change your pipes to clear the defect.  Every rider has a spare set of legal pipes  :P


Not sure why you think motorcycles don't get much cop attention... after riding sportsbikes for a years, I decided to change my style of bike.  Too much attention from the cops!

Did you know it was mandatory in NSW for all bicycles to have a bell??

Cheers

Ed

it's just gunna make people do like the good ol' days ;) i have a mate who's 253 (cause that's all he was allowed) strangely looks like a 6 litre with a huge turbo hangin' off it

you could still do the external destroke on a 5 litre ;)

there's still plenty of people that will let there pride get in the way of fitting a jap engine into there holden me being one of 'em, a red 6 or 253 will go ok not as good as a jap thing but i won't be ashamed to open the bonnet ;D

and those rice burners don't sound anywhere as nice

FChoon and Josh,
Many years ago Judi and I gave our eldest son an 808 that formally belonged to his grandmother. Within 12 months it also ran a turbo charged 20B with 9 inch diff and big gearbox, but still had the scone cutter original wheels.
I also nearly crapped myself when it wasn't going any where and I was in 4th gear and it then took off !!!! It was scary, most unbeliveable power to weight ratio I have experienced. If only his grandmother new :o

Regards
Weddo

PS his name was Josh also.

Even one of these, Ratbox?
(http://i241.photobucket.com/albums/ff271/Ol_Girl_58/1uzfetrumpet1.jpg)
Cover up the 'Toyota' badges and it'd look great.  8)

Rotaries... I hear you, Weddo.  ;)

You're a hoon Weddo  8)

Ratbox.. you haven't gone all purist on us now have you?? :o

Does anyone know if and when NSW might change there laws to match those of Victoria's as I'm half way thru putting a chev in my sedan and dont want to be all for nothing
Ben

Ben,

I know this much: The Vehicle Standards Bulletin 14 (VSB 14) has been changed. There is a National Code of Practice for Light Vehicle Construction and Modification (NCOP). It is up to each state and territory to to elect to follow the NCOP. This is set by the federal government (Dept of Infrastructure and Transport) formerly DOTAR

The NCOP reflecting changes to engines and what engines are allowable came into effect Jan 1 2011. It has been adopted by the ACT and Victoria already. I do not know what other states have taken up the NCOP

It is almost certain that the laws will change, when is another matter and you will need to contact your registering body or a certified engineer in your state to find out when these changes will come into effect.

Keith

yes Ol_Girl_58 even one of those even with toyota covered up i'de still know, it would be at the bottom of the list of what i wouldn't use though as it is atleast a V8 ;D


nup it's just wrong as far as i'm concerned ;)

and i'm not saying they are shit or slow, just that there should be a law banning the fitting of a jap engine in an aussie car ;) ;D

sorta back to the topic wonder what justifies the govts to do stuff like this, it's not like there are many serious accidents involving modified cars, i'de really love to see statistics ratio of modded cars involved in accidents compared with stock cars, and then broken down further to show where the mod was actually the cause of the accident

there are suposed to be changes coming to NSW, haven't read it but one of the scarey things i did see being disscussed was instead of capicity being what they look at they'll be looking a HP, where now if you have a 138 grey you can fit a 149 because it's under a 15% capicity increase with the new rules you wouldn't because although the capacity isn't much the HP is huge even the HP differance is huge from a 138 grey to a 138 red, the way we read it you would need an engineers report even for a modified grey as it would push it over the HP limit

A bit off topic, but have a look at this video, same toyota V8 shoe horned into a little Corolla and driven by a 17yr old at Symmonds Plains last week end This was the last part of his third lap after shredding the tyres.

http://www.youtube.com/embed/j98vQN33uvw

I hope it works I don't know how to imbed the video

regards

Weddo

You are starting to scare me boys!!!

yor dealing with an engineer already aren't you ? if this is the case i think you get some leeway as it was started and well underway prior to the changes, if not go find one ASAP

but still rather than listening to stuff on the interweb i'de still be speaking with an engineer as he is the only person that has to be kept happy

I need to find that book with the HQ with the factory rotary fitted as a prototype

seems to have been  forgotton maybe for good reason was only a 12A and mazda and holden doesnt sound right.


But then again im mixing nissan and holden.. :D

i've seen them weren't they HJ's ? think i remember they were guttless wrecks and chewed fuel to part of the secret with rotaries is power to weight

SSHHHH don't tell any body but we recently bought a nissan x trail with a 2.5 litre 4 cylinder it weighs 1500kg i've had it to 145kmh quite easily and it gets about 8-8.5 litres per 100k's, for a fleeting moment i thought how good would one of these be in my EK atleast 400 kg lighter and possably more aero dynamic and cause of the capacity of the engine shouldn't even need engineers, but couldn't figure how to do maintanance once i'de welded the bonnet closed so nobody could see what i'de done :D ;D

never really looked at the book that hard but they probably were hj,s.


I have thought a lot of conversions but at the end of the day the rb26 looks like a engine thats meant to be there.

Hoon Hoon Hoon that RB engine will never look like it's meant to be in that bay  ??? ??? :o :o Great engine but not for me in an FE FC ....But each to there own .....FC427....

gee that corolla goes well!

hmm did i say that??

the rotary powered Holden was a Mazda Roadpacer I think.

Cheers

Ed

im thinking ratbox and 427 are starting to pick on me.

They're just "engine-ist", ignore them  :P

Hoon you please your self it's your car to do with as you chose mate ......FC427.......

took the words right out of my mouth ;D
i'm not a fan of turbos either, and when my mate was taking the extensivley worked stroker 383 holden motor out of his torana to replace it with a basically stock gen 3 6 litre with a big turbo i was disgusted, BUT 10 second 1/4's with HEAPS of potential for more and 610 HP at the wheels at about 1/2 it's capable boost and it's so mundane and reliable to drive you just can't argue with that

always have and always will.

nothing like a bit of boost..

wouldn't trade my Nissan motor for any other it is good to be different creates a good conversation at car shows some love it some don't .Could be worse i know a bloke that put a 351 clevo in a fj ute .wiggs

i know of a 302 windsor in a FJ  thats just stirring the pot.

I know a guy with a 350 in an XY ...FC427.....

wiggs and hoon you've rehashed a disturbing memory from my younger days >:( an EH with a windsor in it (where's the vomit emoticon) yes there is something worse than a jap engine ;) ;D

yes ratbox putting a Henry in a holden is the ultimate sin  :P

Hi all just a quick question.  I am doing up a FC panelvan and was wanting to know the tare weight of it compared to a sedan. Also if because of it being built as a trade vehicle wether there was any difference in the V8 laws to put in it. Starting to stumble around now because was going V8 track, now thinking V6 I know someone will be able to help so thanks in advance.   Steve  ??? ??? ??? :-\

Ute or Van gets no special benefits it goes on the heaviest variant of that model think it is 1060kg's ......FC427.....

talk to a engineer my ute and van are sweet with the 5litre
regards fatboy

Nice Fatboy ..... NSW has not addopted the proposed changes for cars under 1100kg's so up to 210Ci is allowed .....FC427.....

was gunna ask what state he's in, yes it pays to shop around yor engineers aswell some have different views of the way things are worded, i know of one car in particular that everybody that i know that's seen it said it would be fabricated chassis but his engineer passed it as not

the engineer i was dealing with with my A40 van said what i can do is based off the weight of the sedan version of the model, except in the case where there is no sedan version, in that case i'm lucky as the sedan was heavier than the van ;D

Two others that I know of.

302W in an EH ute.

318 in a HQ Monaro.

Both peculiar swaps...

As far as im concerned a hemi can go in anything.

at powercruise yesterday wound her up to 20lb boost still on pump gas 698HP at the wheels :o  8)

so going by that an rb30 is 2962cc so if that weight of 1060 is what they use then 2915cc is the maximum for a turbo  :'(

but by time all the strengthening kit is installed surely u could argue the 'actual weight' maybe???

Hi all

But if i wanted to get a fb/ek body, i would just sneak in with the formula for an rb30 turbo, essentially registering it as a ek with a fe body? all seems a bit hard these days. should go warm grey ans but a completely different car already engineered for speed/power.

I could still do that, get an fb subframe. whats everyone think? I reckon a lexus v8 would be the go now.

talk to an engineer, i did and things don't look good from what they told me we in NSW will be lucky if they adopt vsb14

Was talking to engineer today. rb30 turbo out of question now. stuffed up my plans. vic has adopted that 14 clause shite.

the engineer said he recently passed a 5ltr fc ute but now he said he cannot do anything more than a 253 holden, lexus quad cam naturally aspirated 4ltr v8 etc. He said he thinks its all shite cos u can get a hyped up 2 litre rb26 that will shit all over a larger v8 but the power comes in quick and harsh whereas a 5 litre v8 is much more manageable in the wet especially.

Spoke to a third engineer today, he does a lot of hotrods etc and he confirmed what I have said above in regard to capacities to have a legal conversion. Imagine how much kit hotrods will cos now, they have to be fully ADR compliant in line with a new car now! That will push the price of existing ones through the roof.

Full rego Hot Rods  should climb nicely $$$$  ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D  street rod rego pre 1948 should be OK ;D Kit cars are the ones that are in real trouble with the new laws ........FC427........

shit yeah

Been given go ahead to keep building my 350 chev powered FC sedan by my engineer in victoria YEHAH
                 Simon Addison

where's the "Like" button?  ;D

thats bloody good news, Simon  :) :)

looking forward to this one...   :) :)

(but I sorta hope it wont be based on your FE/FC black one - that car has real character as it is... :) )

no jack the v8 FC is my first fc the  black FE was built as a car to have on the road while still building V8 car and wifes FC wagon blah blah .The black FE will stay pretty much the same for now  although it might get painted and cleaned up one day as i do have the paint for it

well I hope that day is a long way off; it's one of my favourites just as it is...  :)

thanks jack looking forward to seeing yours at the state titles after all the work youve had to put back into it