some questions before i continue, SC14 on a 179

[NO NAME]

although starting work on my engine is a couple of weeks of I want to sort out as much as possible before painting the subframe and firewall, a trial fit would have been the go but I am trying to not make this thing take for ever.
being as rusty as my car on  modified engines I thought I might seek some advice from any forum users that may have a bit of know how, so here is a heap of questions.

does the water injection go in between the supercharger and carb (suck through) or at the inlet manifold?
do you need much water, would a vn-vs window washer tank be big enough?
do you use a window washer pump?
does a VK efi inlet manifold clear the battery in its original position?

I plan to set up a head  for the supercharger.
block is a hp, manifold is vk efi.
Out of a black and blue head is one better to use?

is there any difference between black and blue crank and rods?

also I have a fealing that the cars weak diff problem is about to get worse, what are some simple cheap alternatives and should I do any modifications to the floor while the car is on it's side to allow for a diff upgrade in the future?

[SRVLIVES]

As for heads, how about a fully reco 12 port... yours for $500

Let me know if you would like any more details.

[Sarge]

Man I have no Idea what your talking about. But I guess thats the great thing about this forum somebody will have. I must say the motor your building has me very interested, so if you dont mind I will be watching as you go along. Do you not think that fitting everything to the motor would be better off done with the motor in place. I would hate to see you get your engine bay all finished and painted and then find that the mods to the motor dont fit, do you see what I am trying to say. I done this once before. I had a HR with a 350 chev fitted and took the motor out freashened up the engine bay done a few mods to the motor thinking it fitted before and when I went to put it back I had a few little mods to do. This put my time line way out just for trying to rush thing along a bit. Anyway just my 2 bob's worth, I will keep an eye on your progress with this motor for it sounds very nice and the pic's on your other post have me very very interested.

Cheers
Sarge

[NO NAME]

I know what you meen as this was a hold up with my first attempt in 97 with a wade blower, the toyota unit is a pretty common set up for red sixes and I was hoping to hear from some one who did it if there was anything to do to the subframe.
I know if I bolt a fan on the water pump there is only 10 mm clearance from were the radiator was, now I have the radiator a little further forward, maybe 5mm.
thhe brake booster will be back near the firewall/ steering box.
as for the battery I dont know, I could recess it alittle in the subframe in a worse case scenario. Two problems with a wagon-
difficult to relocate the battery.
no were to hide prams and family personals when you go to a show.

[Glenn 'Stinky' Stankevicius]

I am not real familar with water injection, I'd recommend building the motor to do without it, but if you have to have it "Google" it there are heaps of sites out there.
http://www.autospeed.com have tonnes of tech tips and I think they did a water injection set-up ages ago.

A cheap strong diff would be a Volvo item, a search of the site should turn up some info, LSD centres are expensive though. I think Centura diffs are a popular budget diff too, but bolt pattern and width may be an issue.

[Sarge]

My first disc brake rear end was a VL Commodroe (blew frist time I lit up the tryes). Replaced with a VN commodore disc rear end and no problems since. Hope this helps in some small way.

Cheers
Sarge

[NO NAME]

had a look at autospeed and you have two pay to read the rest of the article, actually the most info I have been able to find on water injection to suit my application is on this site in the norman supercharger article in technical info, however I was hoping to find some step by step instructions.
what does it cost roughly to set up a vn or volvo diff, centura was a consideration but I didnt want to run the valiant rims, kind of the same with the vn but I am thinking of maybe going to 14" wheels with lowered stubbs.
as for LSD I was just going to run a locker at the drags for two wheel traction.

[Sarge]

I am running a VN commodore disc brake rear end. Total set up cost me about $800 - $900.

Cheers
Sarge

[FATBOY]

did you have to get the diff shortened sarge
cheers fatboy

[Sarge]

Yeah I just took the disc brake rear end and my standard rear end down and 4 days later it way ready.

Cheers
Sarge

[NO NAME]

its starting to look like a trial fit is a must, I had a look at blacktown pick & payless today.
when I arrived I asked for some prices, first of all the head seemed reasonable for $50 but the guy was telling me there is no difference between a blue head and black head but when I looked I noticed the black carb motor had 4 pipes plumbed into the side of the head were as the blue and black efi didnt, funny thing is the heads without it have a raised spot were the pipes go but they are older, even the 1.9 starfire has these spots. so does anyone know yet if there is a difference between black/ blue and efi heads internally?
The efi manifold looks as though it could foul on the fire wall, also the headers that go with the efi set up look like they will not clear the subframe and steering, price seemed ok for $40.
crank and rods they also said I could have for $40 wich was cheaper than I expected.. I also noticed the nanifold looks pretty chunky to squeeze aroud the firewall.

[Dr_Terry]

Hi FCCOOL.

The holes in the head you are referring to are for air injection. Its a type of pollution gear that makes sure the fuel mixture is still being fully burnt after it leaves the engine by supplying more oxygen to complete the burn. More trouble than it's worth really.

The only Holden engines that use air injection are the VH 1.9 cyl. the VH 2.85 & the VK 3.3 EST (carby). If you end up using one of these heads, you can get threaded allen key type plugs to block them off, then their just like a normal head.

To answer your question about the head differences in Blue/Black 6 cyl engines, there are quite a few variations.

If you ignore the air injection holes & just plug them off, there are 3 different basic types. VC/VH Blue motors use 2 types, the one with the small combustion chamber for the 2.85 & the larger chamber is for the 3.3. The VK 3.3 carby & EFI engine are the same as each other (except for the air inj holes), but different the the VC/VH. The VKs have the larger combustion chamber (because they're 3.3s) & have improved port shape when compared to the Blue VC/VH heads. They simply flow more out of the box, but they are directly interchangeable with the Blue 3.3 head. The WB 3.3 head is the same as the VC/VH 3.3 blue head.

There are other minor differences along the way, like the addition of threaded mounting bosses near no. 1 spark plug for a/c compressor mounting etc & the moving of the temp gauge sender hole from the front of the head to the rear, but these are only minor, check which one suits your needs.

Dr Terry.

[NO NAME]

Thanks Dr Terry,
I think I will go the black efi head as they have all the heads to pick from at the wreckers, I was given a price yesterday for $50 and they are under the impression that they are all the same.
are black efi rods and crank the same as blue or is one better, they gave me a price for $40 for either.
I think there is a difference in flywheels on the est and efi variations but I assume all blacks would have the same crank.

[NO NAME]

Today I stuffed up big time removing a head, I removed all the regular looking studs and missed a odd one half way along the passenger side, I then tried to remove the head and it wouldnt move so I tried levering it off the A/C bracket.
It started to lift at the front and on the driver side but still wouldnt move, I got it up at the front about 1/2 a inch and realized there was still a stud and nut in the head holding it on.
I tried to undo it but the 17 socket I used on the other bolts wouldnt get on the nut.
All this after carefully undoing it in a sequence like I was tourqing up a head.
I didnt get it of in time and the wreckers shut, I assume I would have warped it.
There is another head sitting in the boot of a car that has a lot of surface rust around it and bits and peices missing like some rockers.
I don't know if this matters as the head will be going in for bigger valves and a port tidy up and I plan to use roller rockers.
The black head looks perfect for my application as the A/C boss provides way better mounting points for the supercharger bracket than the usual set up bolted to the thermostat housing bolts, it also seems to have pretty big chambers.
I got the inlet manifold, I pretty much got it complete, when I got to the counter I asked how much do you want me to strip till you call it just a manifold and they said " your write take it as it is.
it has the fuel rail, injectors, throttle body etc still on it, I dont know if any of this stuff will be of any use later but at least I saved time on stripping it there.
the car with the head in the boot also has a crank and rods in the boot, I dont know if these would be safe to grap or if I should go to the effort of pulling the bottom end out of a vk or vh to get a freshly removed one.
the one in the boot has rusty journals, I dont know if this will matter as either the crank or block will need to be machined before it fits in my 179 hp.
the VK efi seems to be filled with goodies, I dont know yet what will be of use but it had a big pulley on the front of the harmonic balencer that I will measure next weekend as I want to overdrive the supercharger to around 10 psi, I still have to find out if its possible to run a v belt with the clutch on the super charger or if I can adapt some A/C compressor clutch as I dont want the supercharger to run all the time becuase the rotors expand under heat and can wear on the housing
.
I dont know if it would be worth cutting up but it looks worth a thought, the A/C bracket in the VK has a tensioner pulley that is adjusted with a screw so its not like tightening alternator with a broomstick.

[NO NAME]

looking at another car I see I will have to modify the firewall to clear the manifold, FC sway bar could be a problem to for bottom pulley clearance.
but the biggest problem is I have about a 5" space to fit carbs and adaptor.
options would be to give up on the SU's wich I really wanted to use or cut a big hole in the inner guard/ subframe and run a box or ducting on the other side wich would look a bit rough or work out a adapter that will clear the inner gaurd .
to do the last option would mean longer runners / tubes between the supercharger and carb as well as some pretty sharp bends, would this stuff things up?

I am starting to worry about this diff and Auto,
current diff banjo and box is tri matic, I am trying to keep cost down everywere to allow more dough for the motor so I dont have to touch it again later also I dont think my tunnel will fit a turbo 350.
The tri matic has been given hell and never blown in a car that used to get the manual gearbox changed about 5 times to every oil change.
Is there much that can be done to beef the tri matic or is there another box that will fit the tunnell?
is the volvo diff the same track and if so do I have to change my front brakes or master cylinder?

[Glenn 'Stinky' Stankevicius]

So many questions, I'll do my best.

Sharp bends are bad on inlet manifolds. Can you angle the carb/blower adaptor?

Trimatics can be made to survive behind hot 308s, budget permitting they can be made very strong.

If memory serves, Volvo diffs are slightly shorter than early holden banjos, but don't quote me use a tape to check.

If you get a cheap(?) LSD centre for the banjo, it should buy you more time. Or leave it as it is, spend the money on the motor and take it easy until you can afford the diff.

[NO NAME]

I should be getting the engine started on next weekend, so far it seems like it will be like this.
chem clean & crack test,
posibly decked,
O ringed,
Blue rods shot peened, closed and polished,  Supercharger grind cam,
Roller rockers,
black 12 port head, bigger stainless valves, mild port job.
Honed, possibly bored.
ACL dish top pistons,
head bolts replace with studs,
ARP rod bolts.
balance.
Copper head gasket.

most of these things cost a few hundred each, aarrrrgghhh!
Its also near impossible to get a warm head under a grand wich made it tempting to keep my red head and use a different manifold but stuff it, the black has a good mounting point for the top supercharger bracket.

I now I can't decided on a crank, either red 179, red 202 or blue 3.3 all have disadvantages and advantages.
machining & stuff will be done at westend performance in cambletown, not very local but they built a 8.3 sec holden 6 rail car engine and had good prices.

[Ed]

Youre in luck Leon,

Autospeed are running a series of articles on fitting a supercharger (jap wrecker sourced) to a motor).

https://www.autospeed.com/cms/access/purchaseRequired.html?buy=A&id=2511

you may need to subscribe to receive it in full.

Cheers
Ed

[Sarge]

Leon
       Reading though this is starting to scare me as I had though of doing this to my wagon, I think now I may just put the fuel injected motor out of the VK donor in as it is. At least this way I only have to reco it and dont need to sell the house. The Wife would like me to keep the front seat in the wagon a bench seat, so this means a colomn shift auto, any suggestion. Sorry to get of the subject here.

Cheers
Sarge

[NO NAME]

you dont have to do everything I am doing, actually some people are running these on clapped out stock black and blue motors.
on the other hand why not sell the house, lets face it, all you can do is live in it, you cant take anywere or race it. why not live in the wagon or tow a caravan behind it.
it was hard to give up the bench and I think a auto column would be cool, snapping up gears down the quarter, I got the hurst shifter for a good deal and got used to it otherwise it would have been column shift.
you can use a red head with a two barrel manifold plumbed to it but the way I am going gives better flow, crs sells a kit to set it up on a 2 barrel manifold, infact you can buy everything to turn your motor supercharged for about $1800 including the supercharger itself.
the modifycation to the firewall is necassary with the efi manifold anyway if you are going to put in a efi 6.
I havent seen a set up yet with efi but it may make things easier between the supercharger and subframe as you would only need to run a duct from the supercharger to the filter, also it would make it easy to run the clutch on the pulley so you can turn from a stock efi six to a supercharged one, meaning economy when you want it and power when you want it.
I dont know if I will subscribe to that autospeed, do they have a magazine I can read in the newsagency?
looks like its rite on what I am doing only they wont have holden sixes.