186 / 202...?

[Glenn 'Stinky' Stankevicius]

If you REALLY want to find out what is the best combination try out the little DOS program called Dragstrip Plus, you can download it here - http://www.stangstable.com/downloads.htm
or I can email copies if you like.
It is shareware and I think that the creator has gone bust/moved on/whatever.
But anyway, I tried it using the detailed analysis on a couple of cars and it was accurate to 2/100ths of a second. The beauty of this program is that is will recommend changes to your set-up to optimise your times eg change timing, need larger cam etc. Plus you can change the setup to explore "whatif" scenarios, the only drawback is that you can only save one setting in the database. Even though it is an American program I still used it to predict times in a 6cyl Torana and it was accurate, just using the settings that suited our Aussie Six.
It may be a pain getting all the data for the detailed analysis, but the end result is worth it, online help is very good too.

[RET]

Hey eff_see,  

of course if you change an engine number and get caught - then you are a dickhead!  

The idea is to not get caught -  same as everything else in this world - if you don't like it then don't do it!

kind regards
earlee.

No, if you change an engine number at all then you are a dickhead.  Relying on not getting caught is what all criminals do, but plenty are.  And that reliance is cold comfort to any victim in an accident where such forgery comes to light.

Since the growth of the 're-birthing' industry the penalties for this are severe.  It's all very well to say don't do it if you don't like it, but the problem is the risk to others.

This is bad advice, even in jest.

[eff_see]

word ^^^

anyways, those SC14 ex toyota superchargers are a neat bit of gear. they're suitable for low revving, bigger engines and can spin internally up to 11,000rpm before the teflon coating melts.

SC14 means it displaces 1.4L of air per revolution, or 14,700 litres of air per minute at 10,500rpm.

a 192ci spinning to 6000rpm displaces 192ci of air every 2.5ish rpm (i forget the exact figures) so do the sums and the toyota charger will still be able to supply the air required and make +ve boost.

what worries me more is that you're thinking about a 35/75 cam on an engine with a supercharger that will boost straight from idle. think more along the lines of 25/68, 28/68, 30/70 (max). turbos are different because you can size the exhaust housing and/or manifold and/or wastegate actuator to co-incide with the change in the engine's volumetric efficiency of the lumpy cam.

remember, add just 0.3bar of boost (about 4psi) and all head flow figures go out the window - so don't get too caught up in all that.

[NO NAME]

the 35/75 would probably be going in the case of a supercharger in favour a supercharger grind cam or just standard one.
even if I dont get a supercharger yet or the turbo rebuilt I still want to have the motor ready (eg) rite cam and decompression plates.
I am just trying to decide what way to go, the super charger seems to be a cheap option, they seem to be going for around $300 on ebay and Ive seen a pair of range rover twin strommy CD's for $30, I now have a mig to fabricate most of the stuff required but one concern is my small gap between the harmonic balancer and the radiator for a pulley.

[NO NAME]

IMO replacing your engine number is just as evil as replacing your rusty subframe. my subframe has been changed and is about to get changed again.
am I a big dickhead?

[Glenn 'Stinky' Stankevicius]

I guess it depends on how you change the engine number, I am changing mine by replacing the block (the whole motor actually)    

You'd get the most honest answer if you went down your local cop shop and asked them.

[RET]

Leon,

As you well know my point was in the context of the previous post that discussed grinding off block size stampings, and restamping engine numbers to make a larger motor appear to be something other than what it is.

The chassis number is an issue with a bit more grey area, because it's the vehicle's identifier, yet can be unbolted and replaced for legitimate reasons.  But swapping a front end doesn't achieve anything in terms of the vehicle's performance, which is what we were discussing.

cheers
RET

[NO NAME]

just think, by changing chasis numbers you can build 2 identical cars, one with a blown big block and the other with a grey, you then simply take the grey powered one to the service station to clear the defect, go home swap your number plates back over and start driving your blown big block around again with it's defect cleared.
all you need is to get a police number on the subframe of the stocker and copy it to the other car, that your your stampings can be rough as guts becuase it is known that the number had to be put there after manufacturing.
other thing is but, never open both garage doors at once.
I wouldn't change my number on my block . it is aparently the 5th hp 186 made in melbourne, it has a hp on the side and the engine number is M186005, ive had it since I was 18 and done lots of burnouts. it was apparently a over the counter motor that was a 179 remanufactured to 186 to be sold as a replacement HR motor as well as use up the remaining 179 HP motors.
gee, I might go and drive it now and get some pizza.

[Dr_Terry]

Hi FCCOOL.

I think someone has fed you a line on this one.

The engine number M186005 is the 185005th EH engine manufactured in the the EH run around June/July 1964. The reason I say 185005th & not 186005th isa because the engine numbers started at 1001 not 1. The M prefix signifies it as a 179 but all the engines used the same numerical running order.

The HP casting was changed to 179 around November 1964, so there were around another 18 months production of 179s before the 186 was released.

By the way there is nothing special about the HP cast blocks, they are simple EH 179s.

Dr Terry.

[NO NAME]

I dont know, that was what my engineer told me, he also asked if it had a remunufactured to 186 ci badge on it above the engine number.
the badge was there but had been removed when I took it in for boring and to have the cam bearings fitted, I didn't ask them to take it of, I just got it back and it was gone.
the badge looked to be from the factory and I didn't think you could get a EH with a 186

[oldgmh]

Well thank goodness we all tread the straight and narrow in regard to replacing engines.

on another issue -
I am sure that no-one on this forum has ever bogged up rust in a car, even in a headlight eyebrow!  Mainly because we all know that it is illegal, as a car with rust will not pass a roadworthy inspection - hence it must be unsafe in the event of an accident.  

regards
earlee

[nicko]

unfortuneatly for me both my FE sedan and my FC ute have been bogged in the past,my ute has not been to bad though ,but my FE sedan(hui) was so full of bog it is scary,probably just a NSW fix,lol with whole sill panel shaped with bog not even fibreglass which has a bit of strength,  it is not illegal to do this but you just never know what you will find under nice paint.

[RET]

Well thank goodness we all tread the straight and narrow in regard to replacing engines.

on another issue -
I am sure that no-one on this forum has ever bogged up rust in a car, even in a headlight eyebrow!  Mainly because we all know that it is illegal, as a car with rust will not pass a roadworthy inspection - hence it must be unsafe in the event of an accident.  

regards
earlee

You're missing a critical difference: if you fraudulently change an engine number, it's you in the hot seat.  If an accident uncovers the fact that a car is full of bog and unsafe, it is most likely the issuer of the roadworthy who will be investigated.

I think you and nicko are both incorrect here: use of body filler is perfectly acceptable in the process of rust repair, except in the repair of structural components.  No-one disputes the use of filler on things like head-light peaks or whatever, but there's a crucial difference between rust repair and rust concealment.

cheers
RET

[oldgmh]

hey Ret,

Why are you so wound up. We are not setting gov't policy. It's about someone trying to fool others at the drags into thinking that he has a smaller capacity engine than he really does.  Whacko!!

lighten up!

regards
earlee.

[eff_see]

no we're not setting govt policy but encouraging someone to change the numbers on their engine puts them in the same basket as car re-birthers in the eyes of the law.

if you prang into me, kill my family and suddenly find you have no third party personal insurance because your numbers don't match (and with cars involved in deaths, they PICK THE WHOLE CAR APART), i will hunt you down myself and personally make you suffer in a dark, dark basement under my house for the rest of your waking life.

changing the crank and rods is completely legal to get more capacity, and yet your taxable engine HP remains the same. you let the govt know what you've done in the modifications list and it all gets passed.

changing engine numbers is legal too - AFTER a roadworthy inspection.

re-birthing an engine is NOT legal.

[RET]

hey Ret,

Why are you so wound up. We are not setting gov't policy.
lighten up!

regards
earlee.

The fact that we do not set government policy does not mean we endorse flagrant violation of it.  What we write here is in the public domain, under the auspices of the FE-FC Holden Car Clubs of Aust.  As Administrator, sometimes I have to come across a bit heavy to ensure that it is crystal clear to anyone reading that views expressed here are not necessarily those of the FE-FC Clubs, and should not be interpreted as such.

Personally, I think the Police and the various Transport Departments make life hard enough for street machiners as it is.  That is partially for safety reasons, but also because of the history of people like your mates wilfully breaking the rules.  The rules for light vehicle modifications are not that onerous, and are there predominantly for the safety of the driver and other road users.  And it's the safety of those other road users that most concerns me.  Your mates are welcome to kill or injure themselves, but when they drive an illegally registered car on a public road, they endanger everyone around them.  And it's an unfortunate fact of life that such illegal registration generally comes to light after an accident.

[Dr_Terry]

Hi again FCCOOL.

You mentioned that you didn't think you could get a 186 in an EH. I think you missed the point of my post.

The HP engine is an EH 179, it is not a 186.

GMH did not remanufacture engines, this was done by a host of outside companies. Carveth Sproule (now GEM) was probably the biggest.

If any of these aftermarket companies remanufactured a 179 to 186, which was very common, they quite often labelled them.

But the whole point is, the engine you have, left the factory as a 179 fitted to an EH in mid 1964.

Dr Terry.

[NO NAME]

well I am happy with that, 64 almost a grey, does any one know if the hp stood for anything or is it a letter code like 58=FC. ive heard about a million variations.

[nicko]

i thought the sill panel on early holdens was structural as the rear spring hanger chassis hangs off the sill inside panel, and on Hui it was a section of thick bog over 16 inches long with paper thin steel underneath when i ground the bog away./////As for grinding off the letters or numbers on a red block it would be unwise as when block is cast that part is not added to block but pushed out in the mould from the inside so when ground off that part of the block would actually be very thin,not sure of that but when i worked at a foundry in the 70's thats how everything was done.

[RET]

i thought the sill panel on early holdens was structural as the rear spring hanger chassis hangs off the sill inside panel ...

Yes it is, that's why I disagreed with your previous post when you said bogging the sills wasn't illegal.