'59 FC Fuel/Vacuum Pump, rebuild Kit. Help Req Please.

[Brian_NZ]

Hi Guys,

Im In Invercargill NZ and have a 1959 FC Holden. Since we are so bloody tightly locked down here I figure it would be a good time to do some things on the old FC I have. One of the main jobs I have been thinking of doing for a while is put a new kit in both the fuel pump and vacuum pump.

Reasons for this are:

Vac Wipers work,  but are not great.
There seems to be Oil leaking from the Vacuum pump
Might as well do the fuel pump while im there?

Does anyone have any info where I might be able to get the kits? Happy to buy from NZ or AU if seller will send. Looking for a kit that will work well with new fuels etc.

Can anyone help with details or instructions to remove pump and install the Kits? I dont know a heck of a lot about the pump.
I am mech minded, but no mechanic. I assume I should drain the oil before removing the pump from the block etc? Is this whole process a reasonably easy thing to to for a newbie?

Thanks for any help some of you more knowledgeable blokes can give me. I have a few other little jobs that I would like to tackle myself if this goes well 

Thanks
Brian

[Rod]

Hi Brian,

Try these guys in Oz - Automotive Surplus. IN my dealings with them they have been fantastic.

Here is some links - Fuel Pump Kit: https://www.autosurplus.com.au/holden-48-215-fx-fj-fe-fc-fb-ek-132-138-grey-motor

Vacuum Kit: https://www.autosurplus.com.au/holden-48-215-fx-fj-fe-132-grey-motor-vacuum-pump

You won't need to drain the oil as the oil level is below the level of the pump. Firstly disconnect the lines in and out of the pump (fuel and vacuum). If you have access to a flange ring spanner/s by all means use one to prevent the rounding off of the flange nut. I stand to be corrected as I would need to confirm but I think the vacuum line is 3/8 and the fuel line is 7/16. I am sure someone else will confirm. After that remove the two bolts that connect the fuel pump to the motor.

I haven't got the instructions in front of me but from what I remember seperating the top and the bottom was relatively straight forward to replace diaphram and valves. Have you got a manual?

Cheers

Rod

[ardiesse]

Brian,

You say your vacuum wipers work, but are not great.  That's a step above the rest of us.  In this situation, a vacuum gauge is your best friend.  Disconnect the outlet line from the vacuum section, and plug it so the engine idles OK.  The service manual says you should get between 8 and 12 inches of mercury vacuum at the pump inlet with the engine running at 1000 rpm.

One thing they don't tell you: it's best to remove the fuel pump gasket altogether and use Silastic directly between the fuel pump body and the cylinder block.  You'll gain about an inch of mercury of vacuum (it has to do with pump stroke and return spring pressure).

Your oil leak from the vacuum section is probably coming from the fuel pump bolts.  Does the oil tend to pool up on the vacuum section of the pump on the left side as you look at the pump?  Another thing they don't tell you: the fuel pump bolt holes go straight through into the crankcase.  You need to seal the threads of the fuel pump bolts.  Spray some petrol or kero into the bolt holes and let dry.  Then coat the threads of the bolts liberally with Silastic and install them.

Most fuel pumps go just about forever, and they only need servicing if the diaphragm in the fuel or vacuum section is torn.

If you want to pull the fuel pump apart, find a genuine workshop manual.  And go get a couple of no. 8-32 x 1" screws from an engineering supplier.  You'll need these to release the vacuum section's return spring, and to compress it again.

Failing everything else, Chevs of the 40s sells repair kits for the fuel and vacuum pumps.  But beware: USD, exchange rates, shipping costs.

Rob

[Brian_NZ]

Thanks for that guys.

I will get the kits ordered. I have an manual as per attached, but to be fair its very high level and not nearly as detailed as I would like. Can anyone recommend a more detailed manual and where i might get one?

I have also attached a pic of the fuel pump, looks like someone before me has not used the gasket and has used a sealant of some type.

Cheers
Brian

https://1drv.ms/u/s!Ak-4nGayLAm-jfgqBI8prDAZ7iSYww
https://1drv.ms/u/s!Ak-4nGayLAm-jfgrHMGFNEyMgxMgKg

[ardiesse]

Brian,

Your fuel pump is clean enough to eat dinner off.  Don't touch a thing.

And the workshop manual is the genuine Holden article.

"If it ain't broke, don't fix it."

Rob

[Brian_NZ]

Yeah, but I kinda need working wipers to pass a WOF so I can drive it... 

[Errol62]

Hi Brian,
Be aware that the pump is only there to provide vacuum at open throttle when manifold vacuum is low. Is your wiper motor getting manifold vacuum at idle? You may already be across this but thought I’d mention it in case.

Also, I don’t have good experiences with silicone sealants on fuel and oil parts and would use something like “Gasket Goo” instead. I love silicone for exhaust and tolerate for coolant, but find hydrocarbons break it down.
Cheers,
Clay


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[Brian_NZ]

Thanks Clay,

Safe to assume Im not across much at all. I didnt know that, and its very helpful!!

So I dont have a vacuum gauge, and we are not allowed out the front gate in NZ, and all the shops are closed anyway... Ha!

Am I right in thinking of running some simple tests tomorrow:

1. The Pipe running from the manifold to the vacuum pump, should be "sucking" at an idle. Check that.
2. The pipe from the vac pump to the wipers, should be "sucking" at Revs (2000RPM?) With the other pipe blocked.

I can at least check things like that tomorrow and see if there is anything "obvious" wrong.

[Errol62]

You’re on to it Brian. The manifold pressure doesn’t usually go wrong unless there is a leak in the hose somewhere. Good luck.


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[my8thholden]

Brian ..You said they are working ,leave them ,they never were a very efficient system ,poor wiper speed at low revs or underload is normal ,I note your pump diaphragm is orangey/red in colour ,that's not original ,if the little tang piece you can see and feel is supple ,a new one wont give you much more ,do some checks by all means , there are many FE - FC converted to electric ,there is a reason for that ..all the best, stay well ..Vern .

[mcl1959]

Have you cleaned and checked the wiper motor.
In my experience the grease inside where the paddle moves back and forth goes dry and hard thus making a poor seal between the paddle and the body. This affects how well the wipers work. Clean out the old grease and redo with rubber grease and you should see some improvement. Also clean and regrease the switch on top of the motor which is also where vacuum leaks can occur.
Ken

[ardiesse]

Brian,

Sorry - forgot about the more serious restrictions in Aotearoa.  You write -

"Am I right in thinking of running some simple tests tomorrow:

1. The Pipe running from the manifold to the vacuum pump, should be "sucking" at an idle. Check that.
2. The pipe from the vac pump to the wipers, should be "sucking" at Revs (2000RPM?) With the other pipe blocked. Block the outlet pipe, but disconnect it from the fuel pump.

I can at least check things like that tomorrow and see if there is anything "obvious" wrong."

Also, check that the hose from the wiper motor to the pipe (at the rear of the engine) is not blocked, leaking or restricted.

It's OK to operate the linkages of vacuum wipers by hand.  Hold the wipers above the windscreen and move them through their arc.  They should move quite freely.

Another useful test is to take one wiper arm off and test the wipers (with the pipes reconnected to the pump).  If they work quickly at idle with one wiper arm only , but slowly with both, then the problem is with your wiper motor.

Rob

[Brian_NZ]

OK guys,
With the awesome help here I think we are getting somewhere, and I am learning lots! Thanks so much for the help!

So with the new lvl3 rules as of this morning I was able to click and collect a cheap Vac Gauge. Prob not spot on, but near enough!


I think everyone's advice here may have been spot on!

Vac from manifold only is running at 16-18 in-Mg at Engine Idle (550-650 RPM) - image 01.
Vac from Vac pump only is running at 5-7 at engine RPM 1000-1100 and around 7-8 at 1700-1800 RPM - image 02.

So I suspect the fuel/vac pump is fine. One odd thing to note, that you can see in image 03, the diaphragm/gasket in red you can see in the picture is in multiple "layers"? Is this normal?

So it may be just old, dried out grease in the Wiper Motor? Does anyone have any hints or steps to remove and repair the wiper motor? Just pull it apart, clean out the old grease and regrease with rubber grease as per Kens Instructions? There isnt a lot of info in that manual I have. Is the Slot head screw in the picture each side of the wiper motor the de-mounting screws?

And finally, the old girl hasnt been out of the garage for a run in about 4 months. She started and run really well, with a bit of choke. Image-5 shows a bit of black mess coming out of the exhaust all over the nice new concrete. Is this "normal"?
Its not the end of the world, but this new garage and concrete is only 5 weeks old, so im crying a bit over the mess, but if thats just how the old girl rolls, ill live with it...

Link to Photos:
https://1drv.ms/u/s!Ak-4nGayLAm-jfg16ktvDoz-LKs5_g?e=jd6YbY

Thanks Guys!

[ardiesse]

Brian,

I've pulled apart quite a few wiper motors.  Let me go get one.

-------------- (Girl from Ipanema) --------------

I'll be viewing the wiper motor the way it sits against the firewall, so the curve of the "D" faces down, the hose enters at the top from the left and the cable at the top from the right.

At the rear (firewall side) of the motor is the rectangular bit that attaches to the shaft.  Move it up and down and from side to side.  If there's free play in the shaft, the bushes are worn, and the wiper motor's good for the bin.  It will leak air with worn bushes.

Proceed only if the shaft and bushes are not worn.

At the front of the motor is a sheet metal cover, held on by two small screws.  Remove the screws, and lift off the cover.  Inside is a really funky little overcentre-rotary-valve arrangement with a spring.  Take a photo of how the parts are arranged, and lift out the spring and rotary valve (nylon).

At the top of the motor is another sheet metal cover holding the black plastic slide valve in place (the on-off switch, if you will).  Remove the screws, take off the cover, slide valve and hold-down spring.

Turn the motor over so you're looking at the top cover.  There are eight slotted-head screws holding the cover on.  Remove them.  Work very carefully at this point.  You have to remove the cover without tearing the gaskets.  Tap the top cover carefully to start it separating from the body.  Find a place where the gaskets have stuck to the cover.  With a razor blade, separate the gaskets from the body, so they stay with the cover.  When the gaskets have come free, lift the cover off.

The shaft and paddle will now be visible.  Lift it out.  The bushes will come out too.

The rest is just cleaning and reassembly.  Use lots of grease between the paddle seals and housings.

Wiper motors leak air around the paddle seals (that's why rubber grease), the shaft bearings (fatal, as explained above), the nylon rotary valve (clean the sliding surfaces and grease lightly) and the black plastic slide valve (clean sliding surfaces and grease lightly).

I seem to remember that Chevs of the 40s in the US offers a vacuum wiper motor reconditioning service.  It'd be interesting to get in touch with them and see how many parts they replace when reconditioning the wiper motors.

Rob

[Brian_NZ]

Rob, I am so grateful! Still learning 

OK so all apart, not sure how much grease is supposed to be in there, but looks kind of OK? (new photos attached). Side note, it the grease looks like a graphite paste kind of grease, which may not be OK for rubber? Should I renew it, or just leave it alone?


I no suspect the switch mechanism on the motor, which is totally dry of grease and gritty, or the cable running to the switch, or the switch on the dash (Or a mixture of all).

I dont have any rubber grease here now, but do have some mineral (normal?) car grease. If you think inside the body is OK I will seal it all back up and lube the plastic switch body. I think I can use normal grease on the plastic switch slide right?
I will try operating the slide manually with the motor running (without the cable) and see if the switch is/was an issue.

What do you think?

https://1drv.ms/u/s!Ak-4nGayLAm-jfg8aNH9sPqXkGitHQ?e=1AxgBl

[Brian_NZ]

Oh i forgot to mention, the main big gasket on top is "mostly" ok but has a few rough bits here and there.

The front cover gasket wasnt installed properly and had a big break in it, which may have been sucking air? Is it ok to put a smear of grease on these when then go back in, or a smear on some kind of silicone sealant? This will hold them in place, and maybe bridge the "tears"?

Oh and the bushes seemed to be totally fine 

Thanks!
Bri

[ardiesse]

Brian,

It all looks quite good inside.  You'd probably be OK with ordinary grease.  Work it well into the paddle.

The gaskets don't have any major tears in them, which is good.  Perhaps a light smear of silicone gasket sealant around the outside of the bushes to prevent air getting in around them.

Clean the gunk off the area of the housing where the nylon rotary valve goes.  Check that it swings on its pivot like a pendulum.  The bottom face needs to be flat for it to seal against the housing. If it rocks when sitting on the housing, the bottom face needs truing up.  Get a fresh sheet of say 220 - 400 grit wet'n'dry and some window glass (can even be a house window).  Lay the wet'n'dry on the glass and gently true the rotary valve up.  Use one finger on the middle of the rotary valve, and make gentle strokes in the "long" direction.  Turn the rotary valve over often to inspect.  Work it up until you can see the polished area cover the valve.  Then grease the housing face lightly and reassemble.  If the cover for this mechanism isn't sealing, it doesn't matter too much - this is the air intake for the motor.  but best to make the gasket seal, so the air comes in through the little filter.

The slide valve can be trued up similarly, but shouldn't need much work.  The only thing to watch is that the passages are free of dirt and grease.

Rob

[my8thholden]

Brian ..Yes the diaphragm is multi layered , probably water jet cut today ,but , back in the day ,they were clicked out of sheet and then cross layered to prevent stretch which reduces efficiency ..new concrete , wow , very common years ago to see black smudges on inside of garage doors, combination of fuel soot in straight thru exhaust ,high humidity , and warming up heat from engine ,spluuurt , most do it ..tie an ALL Black jumper over the pipe ,you wont see it then ..stay well Vern ..

[Brian_NZ]

Hi Guys,
Sorry for the delay, finally got back into this and was able to purchase the bits!!

Well that was awesome, I am very pleased to report that my vacumm wipers now run like bloody rockets!   

I even have something I have never had before, Speed Adjustment! The further I turn the knob the faster they go! Still slow down or pause under acceleration etc, but all in all 1000% better. Even run like a bloddy ripper at idle! I bloody proud of working through it myself, with the  awesome help of this board. Thanks so much guys, I intend to keep this car forever, so things like this help me to get to know her!

Next stop, sticky front brakes, but I feel a new post for that coming on! 

Cheers
Bri

[my8thholden]

great outcome Brian ,well done ,very satisfying for you , I have just made some comments on your brakes thread ,it is always important to have a car that stops .stay well Vern .