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Author Topic: Radiator recovery tank??  (Read 16180 times)
newman
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« on: February 22, 2009, 11:02:01 PM »
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Have put a recovery/overflow tank on my EJ (grey motor) last week like I did with my HR, however the radiator doesn't seem to be drawing back the coolant into the radiator when the system cools down. On the HR I run a 13lb recovery style radiator cap and it works fine,so I went with the same cap on the EJ. Do you think the cap pressure could be too great and prevent the whole process not working properly,there are no coolant leaks anywhere else and it appears that at the moment all the recovery tank is doing is acting as a catch can. Should I try a lower pressure recovery cap or just accept that a recovery tank on a grey motored car just isn't an option. ( I guess I should have asked here first before I started)
Thanks in advance for any advice.
Mick
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FX1975
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« Reply #1 on: February 23, 2009, 02:14:36 AM »
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The original system on a grey runs a 7psi cap for an EJ so experimenting with the cap may help. A recovery system must also be fully sealed to work efficiently so recheck that everthing is tight and sealed and also be sure your pick up into your overflow bottle is on tight and reaches close to the bottom of your tank.

                                  Hope this helps
                                          Frank
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« Reply #2 on: February 23, 2009, 09:41:18 AM »
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Had the same problem years ago when converting my FC with standard radiator to a recovery system.

I found,in my case, that the depth of the opening for the cap in the top tank fller neck was deeper than the depth ( or reach ) of the radiator cap from screw up face of the cap to the end seal on the cap so to put it a bit simpler form, the cap end seal,when fitted,was not sealing hard under spring pressure against the seal face of the top tank neck opening.

What was actually happening was the radiator/cooling system wasn't even being pressurised at all and pressure was "leaking" to the outside via the overflow pipe as the end seal was being held just off the seal face in the neck.

From memory the depth of the HR top tank neck isn't as deep as a grey motor one so if you are using the same cap as you had on a HR then the above mentioned problem would happen.The cap end seal would not reach the seal face in the grey top tank neck seal face and would be held about an 1/8th inch os so from the seal face.

Also get a set of vernier calipers and measure to ensure the upper seal of the radiator cap isn't also blocking the overflow pipe opening in the top tank neck when the cap is fitted and that the upper seal is wide enough diameter wise to give effective sealing in the neck as you need a good seal for the vacuum created when the motor cools to draw the coolant back into the tank from the overflow bottle.

You will have to do some measurements with the verniers to get the measurements that you need to match up to a better fitting cap if that is the problem.

Just because a cap will fit in the neck doesn't mean that it will work, you will have to do some measurements to ensure the seals are positioned to effect the overflow on engine run and drawback into the tank on engine cool.

I had my FC in early/mid '80's and from memory the cap I ended up using was a Commodore cap,probably VB,VC,VH ?? ( or maybe WB ) but not 100% on that.Also vague recollection that I had to also modify the locking tabs on the cap as they were too long to engage in the opening for the tab in the filler neck.

This may or may not be your problem but it may help.

Cheers,

Terry.

And also getting back to Franks suggestion above  Roll Eyes yes, definately check your hose to overflow pipe connection to ensure it is sealing well and the condition of the radiator overflow hose as well.As ,as Frank said, check that the end of the overflow bottle is held about 1/2 to 1 inch above the bottom of the overflow tank and there is sufficient coolant in there as well.

Check also that the top filler lid in the recovery bottle has a small hole in it and isn't blocked as it needs a hole in it ( small one ) to also effect the filling and drawback of coolant in the bottle.

Recovery systems are lazy!! They would rather suck air than suck water ( its easier to suck air than water ) and if there is a hole anywhere in the overflow circuit or bad connection it will suck air rather than water.
« Last Edit: February 23, 2009, 09:54:45 AM by FB_MAD » Logged

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newman
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« Reply #3 on: February 25, 2009, 10:37:21 AM »
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Had the goodluck to talk with a local independent Auto supply shop and found out that his background was tinkering with early grey motors,he told me he that he would be concerned about putting the extra pressure on the water pump seal with a 13lb cap and was able to locate a replacement 7lb recovery cap for my EJ which should arrive tomorrow.
I'll be able to give you all some feedback about how well it worked as I'm going down to Corowa on the weekend (about a three hour drive) and the weather looks like its going to be hot, will post the name and part number of the cap if it all works out well.

Terry you were right about the difference in the neck height on the radiators.

Mick
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Rusty_T
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« Reply #4 on: February 25, 2009, 12:07:24 PM »
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 Smiley
Hi all,

I run with a Radiator recovery tank on my Wagon and Sedan. Since I put them on I have only had one overheating problem (In traffic on the M4 at 10-30pm) with the Sedan.Emptied the entire contents of the radiator all over the road.Blew the cap off the recovery tank. The Wagon was fitted prior to Mt Gambia Nationals and it worked perfectly.I also have 7 psi caps.
 Cheers Rusty
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Ed
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« Reply #5 on: February 26, 2009, 05:06:48 PM »
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One thing I’ve never understood about a recovery system and still don’t…

At higher pressure (caused by higher temp) the cap rises allowing coolant out the overflow to the catch can.

As it cools, how can the coolant from the can re-enter the system?

The system loses pressure and the overflow outlet (above the cap) is then closed.

somebody explain???

the overflow coolant recovery on mybike also appears to only work one way and it's bone stock.

Cheers

Ed


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Geoff_K
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« Reply #6 on: February 26, 2009, 05:35:26 PM »
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Ed,
All Radiator caps are a two way pressure sensing valve.
As the radiator water heats and expands, the cap is pushed off the seat allowing some water (and air) to escape.
At operating temperature all is balanced with an internal pressure at about the stated cap pressure rating (eg 7psi) and the radiator is full of water (no air).
When the engines is switched off (after the inital temp/pressure rise) and the water cools a negative pressure (vacuum) forms within the radiator.
As the vacuum forms, a second relief valve in the radiator cap opens, and draws in air to balance the internal pressure with the external atmosphere.
(this is why on a non-recovery tank system the water level (when cold) is always down about 25mm)
With a recovery system, the vacuum created on cooling is balanced by the recovery system sucking water (not air) back into the radiator. Thus the radiator remains filled with only water (no air) through all the hot cold cycles.
Any further questions?
Cheers
Geoff_K
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« Reply #7 on: February 26, 2009, 07:28:30 PM »
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 Roll Eyes Yep, what Geoff said. Geoffs explanation is spot on and a better effort than my go at explaining how it all happens  Embarrassed Embarrassed Embarrassed  Undecided Undecided Undecided Wink Wink Wink
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mikey
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« Reply #8 on: February 26, 2009, 07:48:20 PM »
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One thing I’ve never understood about a recovery system and still don’t…

At higher pressure (caused by higher temp) the cap rises allowing coolant out the overflow to the catch can.

As it cools, how can the coolant from the can re-enter the system?

The system loses pressure and the overflow outlet (above the cap) is then closed.

somebody explain???

the overflow coolant recovery on mybike also appears to only work one way and it's bone stock.
Cheers
Ed

Ed, do you means it doesn't suck the water back in to the radiator from the tank?  If so possibly check that the tube to recovery tank is in good condition with no places for air to drawn in and check that the tube dips into the tank.

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« Reply #9 on: February 27, 2009, 08:25:09 AM »
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thanks Mikey will check it out while the bike is currently in pieces on the floor...  Cheesy

Cheers

Ed

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« Reply #10 on: February 27, 2009, 08:29:05 AM »
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Thanks Also Geoff for that explanation.

I'm going to look over the entire system, chances are the breather hole might be caked up with mud and dirt (re-read Terry's post)

Bike is currently dismantled for some cleaning, following a few wet muddy rides.

Cheers

Ed


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newman
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« Reply #11 on: March 02, 2009, 09:33:44 AM »
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Well I went to the Corowa Autofest on the weekend and the car ran fine, the temp gauge sat on an average 170,on the drive home when the day was a bit hotter the most it crept up to on the highway was 180. It didn't lose any coolant and the recovery system worked well, so the shift to a 7lb cap made the difference. If it helps anyone out the cap I got was a CPC brand part #536/07 it was $6.50 well spent.

Thanks again for all the input guys it was all helpful.

P.S.

The Autofest was pretty good for a first time event and there seems to be a solid early holden group down around the Vic/NSW border area.

Mick.
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FC427
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« Reply #12 on: March 02, 2009, 09:41:21 AM »
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I thought the proper operating temperature range was between 186 f and 196 f  for proper expansion of engine components for correct tolerances  Huh Huh...........FC427..........
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newman
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« Reply #13 on: March 02, 2009, 03:39:09 PM »
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Now I'm starting to think my old Smiths temp gauge (non electrical) might be telling me B/S information, I'll have to work out a way to give it a test for accuracy.
I did put the gauge in when I started playing around with the recovery system idea, and typical of me its a gauge that I've had for years in different cars, I like it because its a 360 degree gauge rather than the sweep style face is it possible the capillary line could become less accurate over time?
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weddo
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« Reply #14 on: March 03, 2009, 12:23:52 PM »
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The smiths guage in my Fc with hot grey runs at 150  while the smiths guage in the Fc with 186X2 runs at 180

maybe they are both tired

regards
Weddo
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« Reply #15 on: March 03, 2009, 12:37:47 PM »
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I have a big industrial temp gauge out of a pipe line when I worked at Shell Refinery I use to check my gauges against I had the instrument guy calibrate it so I know it is spot on ...I have been caught out before with wrong reading temp gauges and gone to a lot of expense to fix something that was never broken .........FC427........
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Glenn 'Stinky' Stankevicius
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« Reply #16 on: March 03, 2009, 03:29:18 PM »
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The smiths guage in my Fc with hot grey runs at 150  while the smiths guage in the Fc with 186X2 runs at 180

maybe they are both tired

regards
Weddo
It might be the senders, I thought the 202 in my car ran hot but it was the wrong sender, it got a whole lot cooler once I got the right one.
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CraigA
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« Reply #17 on: March 03, 2009, 04:59:52 PM »
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I bought an infrared temperature tester off ePay for under $50.00 delivered. This way you can check your gauge and if there is a problem determine where it is by measuring radiator inlet and outlet temperatures.

Very useful device and cheap compared to all the stuffing round you'll do trying to find something that may not even be there.
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newman
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« Reply #18 on: March 04, 2009, 03:07:25 PM »
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Great idea, I have access to one here at work out in the Auto workshops sometimes you can overlook the most obvious things thanks 70XU1.

Mick

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