holden red motor, anyone?

[bob_hawke]

hey just hoping if someone out there knows enough about about red motors (186 from a 65 EH special) to tell me something..
im wanting to put a triple carb manifold on the engine, and im wondering what are better carbies, SU or Strombergs, keeping fuel consumption in mind just a little bit.  

many thanks

[RET]

If I was concerned about fuel economy, I wouldn't be considering triple carbs, to be blunt.

You'll get a lot of argument from a lot of people about SUs vs Webers vs Strommies etc etc.  The question is what's right for your application?  What is it you are trying to achieve?

I think it's fair to say that SUs are great as long as you keep them tuned.  And that is quite an art, apparently; sure to keep you out of mischief for a few hours every weekend.  Strommies are less maintenance, that's for sure.

If you want better performance without sacrificing fuel economy, I'd be looking at extractors or headers first.  And depending on how you use the car, the diff ratio.

cheers
RET

[Blown_FC]

Just my 2 cents worth......I'm fitting ( fitted ) a set of Stromberg CD150's from the LC XU1 Toranas to my Red 202.

There is a great article in an old edition of Street Machine, that pretty much backs up what Ret said.     SU's are good, but need to be kept in tune more whereas Stommies hold there tune better, and are the better choice for economy....the article went on to summise by saying that Triple Webers were the best for performance, and Triple Strommies best for economy.

My thoughts are that SU's were never fitted to Holdens, Strombergs were...so stick with what Holden used....go the Strommies !

Having said this.....here is what you may be up for dollar wise, as this is what I've spent on mine:

Carbs including manifold from forum member, $350
New Linkages, $60
Recon, acid bath, service, new shafts and butterflies, $570
Chrome the Caps $60

That's over a grand and I haven't even started playing with the needles yet.....then again, I wanted them to be as perfect as possible....they are now painted and chromed and fitted to my XU1 replica motor, and looks sweet.
I have a pic but can;t post on the site, if some-one can post the pic for me, I'll email it to them.

Cheers

Mark

[Dave_EH]

I have just finished putting tripple SUs on a 186 and have a few points to note.

You can expect trouble and more cost than anticipated to get them up and running.  If you are putting them in an EH engine bay you will need a compact manifold that fits and will need to move your battery to the otherside of the bay if you intend to run filters.

Regardless of what people tell you, you will need a choke.  An SU carb cannot start without one.  Tripple linkages arent made anymore so you'll have to use a twin one say on just two of the back carbs.

I'd advise new needle and seats, jets and gaskets before you even get started.  (about $90 - $100 all up)

SUs are so so simple in their operation its crazy.  Anyone with a toolkit could rebuild them (bar reshafting them) in an afternoon.

They give huge power increase over a Holley.  An additional 2000rpm is not uncommon.

Tuning is a little time consuming but not difficult at all.  It just requires a guage then adjusting the idle mixture and the jet adjustment.  

I would recommend SUs, yet I have had no experience with any other tripples.  Forget the nonsense you hear about how difficult they are to use and tune.  I think the stories have got out of hand.  

Good Luck
Dave

[Blown_FC]

Dave...I think you are right !

I know I vouch for Strommies over SU's, but my last project was a 64 Mk1 Mini Cooper 998 which ran twin 1.25" Su's

I had no real troubles, and I did it all myself...ie...I didn;t get anyone to clean them, or service them or nothing, just cleaned them myself and bolted them up.

I agree that stories about SU's is at a silly point now.....I think it's just because most people follow the YANKS with car building, and think that HOLLEY is the only carb ever invented.....what I mean by this exageration, is than most people don't understand Side Draught carbs.

you could have a dodgy motor or piston rings or something, that doesn;t draw as much air down on the induction stroke, therefore not drawing as much fuel into the cylinder, the car runs funny, and people automatically blame the twin/triple carbs.

My dad ( who even raced minis at speedway ) once swore black was blue, that when you stab the accelerator ( with the motor OFF ) that you squirt fuel into the motor and could flood it !

What Bullshot........the accelerator cable only opens the throttle butterfly...that's it......no squirts of anything, and  I feel a lot of people used to Holleys ect, don;t understand this.

But hey....that's just my 2 cents worth, and we all know that 2 cents aint worth much .

CHeers

Mark

[bob_hawke]

thanks for the help, this site is amazing you people know so much haha.
just gotta get some decent money up first before doing anything though..
many thanks

[minifcvan]

  ;Danyone who likes black sabbath must have taste.... good cars good music cheers mark             ps         although your names is a bit suspect

[bob_hawke]

haha yeah just a random name, heard hes pretty handy with a yard glass but.
black sabbath rocks.

[normd]

Hi Ya Bob  
 There's a set  of SU's for sale on eBay at the moment, I've put a link to it in "Auctions"   (bottom of main page)

 Norm  

[Dave_EH]

The second smaller manifold that norm posted the link to may fit an EH engine bay - does anyone think the writing on it says "armour" - that is the required manifold.  Might still be hard to squeeze filters in.

Theres something a little odd about the fuel bowls on those carbs - on the fuel bowls are on differing sides.  I'm fairly sure they should all be on the left hand side on this size carb.  What do you think Norm?

Dave

[nicko]

one of these are from a mini or MG or similar left and right carbs from a matched set,should still work fine but pity as the matched sets are quite rare nowadays but you could always buy these and find another for tripples and sell the Mini/MG one on ebay thus recouping a bit of your money as its worth  more than the rest  to someone doing up a set of twins for any type of engine with twin SU's.

[bob_hawke]

cool, thanks for the info. those SU's look good but on the subject dave what would be the best filter set up for those carbs for example? any special brands or types to keep an eye out for?

thanks

[fe hotrod]

 ;)Howdy bob,,perhaps instead of running triples,which can be a nightmare,especially if your doing the work yourself,you could consider a 186 s twin barrel carbie,which came out on a hr 186 s,as these are a much more reliable source of carburation,much easier to install,produce a bit more HP than a standard stromie,without drinking a heap of fuel,and you could fit it up with a set of x2 headers,which you can buy from a swapmeet or ebay,if you fit triples you can expect the fuel bill the same as a big v8,and headaches to boot,thats my 2 bobs worth,if you are purchasing triples,do your home work well!!!!!trust me!!! ...jamie

[bob_hawke]

thanks for the advice jamie, im just specualting at the moment, but i know i want something to happen soon. what problems come with a triple set up? anything you have experienced?
thanks a lot for the advice

[Dave_EH]

Welcome back Nicko

Width is a bigger problem than length, so I'd probably go for some inlet trumpets with little filter socks over the ends.

Legally you are required to have filters - I'm not sure whether socks will pass, yet if you are already registered and don't have to be be inspected I think you would have to be very unlucky to be picked up - these machines are so old now not many constables are too concerned with these sorts of retro mods.

Try and stay away from modifying the fire wall or you might end up with problems with roadworthys down the track.

Regarding tripples Vs single carbs - Jamie is correct in what he says and is looking at the sensible solution.

Most of the hassles are with the initial set up i.e linkages, the jets, gaskets, lines, needle and seats etc etc.  Of course you'll need to convert to a cable type throttle set up too - not difficult but another half day job. If they are in good condition with good linkages on a good motor they should run trouble free - yet you can neglect a single carb and it will run similarly trouble free.

Is your engine stock? Transmission?  You'll need a nice free flow exhaust and a little head work to make these carbs work properly - they do look really cool under the bonnet too!  Considering you can buy a second hand holley and manifold for around $150 and it is basically a bolt on apllication you might like to try that first?

Notice how the fuel bowl is on the left hand side on the far right carb in the photo - this would be deliberate to create clearance at the fire wall end.

Regards
Dave

[HARKO]

Good to see you back online Nicko .
Sorry for the off topic.

[bob_hawke]

umm ive inherited a 65 EH 179hp with a single strommie from my brother so i dont know everything but its bored to 186 cubes with a stainless steel crank and a stage 2 camshaft. he said something about the block being a strenghthened or something but i cant remember.
will i need more than a better camshaft? valves or a whole head?
ive got a crappy hydramatic three speed auto thats needs the bands being done, ill prob have to get something better there.
what do you mean by the firewall? does a multiple carb setup make the engine heat up much faster?

[bob_hawke]

oh and im pretty sure my exhaust system isnt woth much mentioning, tough i dont know much about it its not the original one but im pretty sure its nothing special. the whole engine got a complete rebuild aboout 4 years ago and thats where it got bored and a little hotted up.

[Dave_EH]

I've sent you a PM

Dave

[RET]

what do you mean by the firewall? does a multiple carb setup make the engine heat up much faster?

Uhh, it's more about getting the manifolds to physically fit in the engine bay.  Early Holdens don't exactly have oodles of space around the rear of the motor, compared to HK and later.

cheers
RET