202 vs v6

[michaels57]

looking for advice with my fe ute

I had my heart set on putting a vn six cylinder in my ute but i am now reconsidering and thinking of 202 with a 308 later on. Hoping for some arguments to weigh it up apart from the obvious economy and fuel benefits taking into mind time and cost.

any help from someone who has been their or maybe not would be greatly appreciatted

[sgo]

One of the benefits I find with a V6 is the beauty of fuel injection and the computer management system.
Starting up first time, smooth idle, and nothing to tune or maintain is a great luxury!

[RET]

So much of the answer depends also on how much you can afford to spend.  I don't think you can beat the red motor in terms of bang-for-your-buck.  All the parts you need are readily available (except perhaps the EH sump - they're getting rarer these days).  But you can still get HR front end, motor, tranny, HR rear end and an engineers's report for under $1500, if you shop around and fit them yourself.  There are other bits you need, of course, depending upon which state you're trying to get the car registered in.  Even so, $2000 gets you well and truly registered and rolling.

Compare this to the cost and bespoke engineering required to fit a V6 (check out http://www.v6conversions.com.au/ for some of the details).  sgo could tell you better than me, but I doubt you'd get any change out of $8000 for this setup.

Having said all that, going red now and V6 or V8 later is going to cost you even more in the long term, since you'll have to replace everything you just modified again, with the possible exception of the transmission if you go 308.

So, what's most important?
Cost, horsepower or getting mobile (time)?

Making that decision will help you make the other.

Hope that helps,
RET

[michaels57]

Thanks for the help
i do think i will go with the 202 i already have a hr front end so what do u think i will be looking at for cost and time do it myself
also what is in changing the 202 to a 308 when i get off my p's
what is the general feeling about leaded fuel and old cars isn't there a cataylitic converter or sumethin

thanx

[mcl1959]

Any red motor in a FE requires an engineers cert.
See recent threads regarding this topic.
The work involved in putting the red in will be nothing like that involved to put a 308 in.
My advice - dont go there !!!!!!!!
Small block Chev is a much easier fit in the engine bay. The extra cost of the engine far outweighs the nightmare involved in trying to get a Holden V8 to fit.
Catalytic convertors have nothing to do with LRP (lead replacement fuel)
See recent threads regarding this topic as well.

Ken

[RET]

michaels57,

Those prices I suggested in my previous thread were based on you doing the work yourself.  In Sydney, you'd be looking at:

• Red motor: $200-400, depending on capacity and condition.  Unless you've got your heart set on the 202, the 179 is a good choice because you can get the EH sump and pickup with it if that's what it came out of.  No pollution gear, either
• If you can't score the transmission you want with your motor, add another couple of hundred for that, (assuming your looking at trimatic/powerglide or 3-speed).  You can even keep the crashbox going, in a pinch.
• HR rear end, drum to drum.  Say $100
• 2 speed wipers, heater/demister.  Say $200.
• Seat-belts front and rear, say $200 (and you might need to get these professionally fitted, figure another couple of hundred for that.)

What are we up to now? 400+200+100+200+200+200 = $1300.  Engineer's report will probably run you to another $200-300, plus rego.  So $2000 wasn't too far wide of the mark.

Some things might be cheaper in Melb, but that should be a rough idea of price.  I imagine you've probably got a 202 and tranny in your HQ-WB stockpile  

Hope that helps.
RET

[RET]

... and as for time, only you know how much of it you've got.  But for what it's worth two friends and I did a grey->red swap in a day, but the HR running gear was already fitted and we left the crashbox in.

Is the car registered now?  If so, you can do the running gear first and the motor later, if you have to work piecemeal.  If the car's not registered, it'll take you as long as it takes you

cheers
RET

[michaels57]

thanx for the advise i do think i will go with the 202 for now anyway but at the moment the utes got the hr front end with a 186 is it a lot of work considering how far it has already been and do i still need the engineers cert.
is it worth the time and money with the comparison of the motors and the idea that i will probably change the motor later on anyway is it worth just rebuilding the 186

one more question what would a 327 shev set me back with gearbox

in answer to rets question the car isn't reg'd at the moment but i have set about twelve - eighten months to get it finished

finally in regards to the seat belts the ute has the ugly bolts protuding from each side i noticed a while ago that someone said you can do it without the holes is it possible to reverse that

with only one more question i amm looking for an estimate of a price for an acrylic respray if i strip the car back it has a bit of rust but it isn't to bad and there is some old repairs that aren't to flash as well

any help greatly apreciated.

[craiga]

Michael,

Rust repairs are like gold fossicking - the more you dig the more you find  

My brother is a painter and estimates that QUOTE "an acrylic respray, if he prepares the car, is $5000 - $4500 if I prepare the car". UNQUOTE

Strip it yourself, but getting the repairs fixed properly is more important than the final coat, because a fantastic final coat will be ruined after only a short period of time if rust bubbles start to reappear.

So save your cash, invest in quality repairs, then save your cash again, and get a good quality painter to apply a coat of paint you will be proud of and others will admire.

You can get it done cheap, but thats what you'll get - a cheap job.

Look forward to seeing it one day.....

Cheers,

Craig.

[RET]

thanx for the advise i do think i will go with the 202 for now anyway but at the moment the utes got the hr front end with a 186 is it a lot of work considering how far it has already been and do i still need the engineers cert.
is it worth the time and money with the comparison of the motors and the idea that i will probably change the motor later on anyway is it worth just rebuilding the 186

Was the ute previously legal with the 186?  If you can prove it was, you don't need an engineer's report - there was a discussion about this only a week ago in another thread.  If that was the case you'd be mad to swap a 186 for a 202, since you'd almost certainly need a new certificate for the new motor.

one more question what would a 327 shev set me back with gearbox

Check out http://www.tradingpost.com.au

finally in regards to the seat belts the ute has the ugly bolts protuding from each side i noticed a while ago that someone said you can do it without the holes is it possible to reverse that

It's straightforward enough to fill the holes and fit the seat belts using some other method.  It might mean a trip to the engineer though

cheers
RET

[michaels57]

consideing the car doesn't have an engineers report and i will have to any way is it worth the changeover
to a 202 are the benefits signifecent enough for the hassle

also i have a friend who has offered me a 253 which needs some work what are the possibilities of using that and is it leagal for power to weight on my P's and how hard is it and whats it worth

also thanks for the info on the paint

apreciate it

[mcl1959]

Most people believe that the 186 is a better engine than the 202 engine anyway.  But which is the better engine? A good 202 is better than a tired 186.
Check with the RTA for power to weight ratio for P platers.
What needs to be done to the 253.  Some work might mean a little or a full rebuild.  It would want to be pretty cheap if it needs significant work such as a new cam or new rings.
You had better start saving your pennies as a V8 swap will cost you lots.
As a side issue Mark Henderson's Grand champion 350 chev FC is up for sale for $17500.  A real bargain since it cost twice that to build.

Ken

[RET]

consideing the car doesn't have an engineers report and i will have to any way is it worth the changeover
to a 202 are the benefits signifecent enough for the hassle

You don't need an engineer's report if you can prove the car was previously registered with that motor.  Check with the local registration authorities, but in NSW this can be done with a microfiche search for $20.
I concur with Ken - unless the 186 is clagged, it's a better motor than the 202.

also i have a friend who has offered me a 253 which needs some work what are the possibilities of using that

As per Ken's previous answer about the 308.  The block is the same for both Holden V8s, small block chev is an easier job.

I'm happy to help you with answers, but we seem to be going around and around the same questions now.  Please re-read what everyone has written so far - there's some worthwhile opinions and advice in there.  Again, my advice to you is to rank these three things:  

• Horsepower
• Time
• Money

What's most important?  Are you more limited by money or time? Make that decision and then choose the path that best fits within those constraints.

cheers
RET

[Ed]

Advice:

stick with a red.. unless you want it sidelined for years...

... trust me....

[FEHOLDEN]

michael

bearing in mind that you probably have a 202 amongst all those hq-wb parts, i would still be going for the 186 as it is totally un blemished by the scourge of the dreaded pollution gear and is also the last in the line of that series of red motors. the 202 had some internal modifications which depending on the year of manufacture can affect the performance of the motor.

i also believe that most red motor mods are based on the 186 and adapted to other displacements.

as for the v6, i have one in a vn commodore [don't tell anybody] and it is a mighty motor. have a look at sgo's car in the photo section. i bet it goes like the powers but at what cost both time and financial?

i am putting a 186 into my "effie" if that helps to back up my advice

hopr this helps


denis

[michaels57]

thanx for the advice i am probably going to keep the 186 thanks to your advice
fortunetley for me the 253 came for nothing from a friend who owed me one and i have been ofered $150 for it so ill probably take it and splurge it on the ute cosidering this is it worth fully rebuildin it and then selling it or do u guy's think i should take the money and run

[sgo]

as for the v6, i have one in a vn commodore [don't tell anybody] and it is a mighty motor. have a look at sgo's car in the photo section. i bet it goes like the powers but at what cost both time and financial?



denis[/quote]
The cost in time is about 12 months of weekends to get it on the road drivable, with rear seatbelts and trim the only major bits to do.
Financially I started with a stacked VP with 190,000k on the clock for $1800. Using every VP part that you can make fit,ie, engine,gearbox, pedals,loom,dash,seats, steering column,booster and master cylinder,brake-lines,petrol-tank,fuel-lines,radiator,rear calipers+discs,and probably a few other bits and pieces that I can't remember,so all that saved a heap in dollars.The only other main costs were modifying a steering rack ($180),new HQ discs($300)some reco work on brakes ($300)VB rear end($150)HR front end($150)new exhaust($300)extra leaf rear springs($200) and add $1000 for bits and pieces and the cost is under $5000. Of couse I haven't paid the engineer yet, and when the engine spun a big-end bearing and needed replacing it stuffed up the costings a bit!!!!!!!
All the mods inc. body strengthening and gearbox tunnell were all done at home so there were no big labour bills that would really ruin the budget. Spread over 12 months plus, I think it wasn't too bad. I hope that gives some idea of what can be involved for whatever you go with.

[michaels57]

The ute project should begin soon
a friend of mine has told me to put a banjo diff out of a HG in is that a common mod in the fe's

got the ute on the bitumen and with a bit of tinkering got the old 186 to kick over but it doesn't select the gears right all i can get is reverse and 1st out of the three speed any ideas