Why Not King Pin

[Burnsy]

Well it seems winter has arrived and as such the brakes are that little bit more dodgy.  My last EK had a HR front with Torana disks but I read now that you can get a kit to fit the disks staight onto the standard Kingpin Front end.  Two questions:
1. Has sanyone used one of these kits and are they really trouble free fitting?
2. What is so bad about the knig pin setup that I should be aware of and would make me want to change to HR front?

Cheers,

Mike

[EJ_Dave]

Mike,

this is a good question. I have asked a number of people and never got a satisfactory answer. It seems to me that it is much simpler and cheaper to leave the kingpin f/e in place unless there is a compelling reason to go to an HR f/e. This is especially true if your f/e is in good nick. Changing the drag ling to an HR one is a good idea though. It is relatively cheap and takes a lot of play out of the steering.

I'd be interested in comments on the disc brake conversions for kingpin front ends because I am also contemplating one of these at the moment.

David

[Burnsy]

To date I have found out that Hopper Stoppers do not actually make a kit, they use CRS kits and they are $150 delivered and include bolts spacers and instructions.  Allowing about $200 for Torana disks, calipers and new bits required (hoses etc), plus the cost of a booster and proportioning valve (I don't know how much these would cost) it is not alot cheaper than grabbing a whole converted front end second hand.  It just seems easier and the condition of a second hand front end is always unknown.

Has anyone fitted or is using one of these conversions?  What do they think?

[Burnsy]

While this is on the board, has anyone got any comments regarding Torana Vs Comodore disks?  Will any Commodore disks fit 13 inch rims?  If I am going to use an adapter on my Kingpins, would I be better to go for Comodore rather than Torana?

Is there anyone in WA that has a set of disks and calipers (probably Torana?) that are in working order for sale and a VH44 remote booster?

Mike

[ChrisB]

I am curious on this topic as well if someone has done it
I saw a conversion done recently on a AP3 Chrysler Royal with king pins. Looked real neat and the owner reckoned it was so much better.



ChrisB  

[Burnsy]

Well it's decided - dictated by dollars.  I just got the bargain of the year.  Picked up a set of adapters (unused) along with two complete LX torana disk and  caliper setups, one of which has a set of calipers that have just been rebuilt (as yet still unused), a set of new pads, new bearings and new hoses (all still in the box), all for $200!!
I can try and get sme pictures to post if anyone is interested.  I still need a VH44 booster though.  

If anyone has fitted one of these before, please let me know whether it is better to mount them forward or rearward, they fit both ways.

Cheers,

Mike

[mcl1959]

I have fitted a king pin kit to an FC at Hoppers Stoppers and I have to say I was less than impressed with it.  It does not fit up easily and my opinion is that whilst the conversion seems strong enough to mount the components, I think the king pins are not up to the extra twisting load imposed by the disc brakes.
I think that the king pins and top pivots will wear more quickly than previously.
Commodore discs are superior to Torana discs but do not fit in 13 inch wheels.
HR front end is a better scenario in my opinion as the unit has ball joints and a far stronger body to it.

Ken

[Burnsy]

Ken, did you fit the calipers to the front or rear?

Mike

[Blown_FC]

Mike....although I'm no brake expert, I tend to agree with Ken.....afterall, if keeping kingpins and converting it all was the cheapest and the best way to get discs, then why do the majority of people scour the earth for HR front ends ?    
They obviuosly use them because they are far stronger and superior to the old kingpin front ends.

It makes sense, that if your braking power is increased then so should be the components that the brake hang off.......it's a bit like engine building.....there's only so much you can beef up the top end of a motor, before you have to beef up the bottom end to cope with the extra power !

Not sure if you got my email the other day...but there is a fully complete factory HR Disc Brake Front end available for $650.

It's not mine, but belongs to a holden nut that I know.

It's still in the car a t present, but will remove for anyone who wishes to buy it !

Cheers

and good luck with whatever way you choose !

Mark

[Burnsy]

Why change the drag link to HR as suggested by Dave?  Can anyone tell me the difference and what it does please?

Hey how do I show Dave's comments in this post  in a little box for reference like some people do?

[surferboy]

gday mike.
my regular mechanic had concerns with stress loads with disc brakes on the kingpin frontend so i opted for the hr conversion with torana discs. the car handles and corners a lot better on the country roads and stops smoother straighter and quicker. talk to blown fc,he did my conversion- the travelling to mandurah is worth it. next trip i'm hoping mark can sort out the column shift for the auto.
                      surferboy

[RET]

Hey how do I show Dave's comments in this post  in a little box for reference like some people do?

Click on the ["] Quote link at the top right of the post in question, rather than the "Reply" link at top/bottom.

cheers
RET

[Burnsy]

Help.......................

I fitted up my conversion but the king pin steering arm looks like it is going to rub on the disks where it arches out towards the wheels to bolt the old drums on.  Does anyone have a copy of the instructions for a king pin conversion that they can scan and email to me, or alternatively are there any other steering arms that don't have the arches that I can use, HR, Torana, EH??.  I have emailed Ken with some questions but just dropped this message on to cover my bases, I was hoping to be back on the road today - not looking good.

[Burnsy]

Ken was right, my current opinion is that this adapter kit is worth less than the steel it was cut from.

The steering arm is in the way of the disks, the calipers hit the kingpin and grinding is required to get enough clearance to bolt them up and although I have just found that the new pads I have are the wrong ones, I am sure they would not fit anyway as the clearances to the disk look wrong.

Bear in mind I have no instructions but even so, the concept is simple enough.  I will keep trying to fit it as I am too far gone to turn back (my beautiful tight kingpins have been drilled out and tapped already), in the mean time tomorrow I go and start scavenging parts to build a HR front end!!!

[nicko]

Hi Burnsy.
where are you located as i have a HRdisc brake frontend with an EH outrigger fitted for FE -EH conversion,it needs engine mounts welded in and i need the HR discs and stub axles for another car,but you can get them or torana ones easy enough. i want $130 for front end but im in Queensland so really depends where you are as freight will be expensive outside QLD.

[Burnsy]

Thanks Nicko, I am in WA so not really worth it.  I have access to HR drum frontends and EH outriggers for nothing so I think I will take it from there.  

Was hoping for a quick changeover to disks so I will persue the kingpin option further before investing $$ as I have everything and most of it is bolted up.

[nicko]

no worries,i am following this thread closely as my FE has worn king pins and i have a new set ready to fit,as i dont realy want to change front ends but adding discs would be nice,

[Burnsy]

This is becoming an epic but I will keep the info flowing as some seem interested.

I have one side fitted up.  I mounted the calipers to the rear as this was the only way I could get the clearance.  I had to grind the edge off the rear side of the top of the king pin as the caliper sits right up against it.  The problem I have now is that with the new disk pads in, the calipers lock the disk if I try to tighten up the front caliper section that holds the pads, to overcome this I am going to have to use spacers to bring the front of the caliper forward about 2mm allowing the disk to turn.  

I still have the steering arm prblem and I am loath to grind back them back as I would need to take at least 6-8mm off them to clear the disks so tomorrow I will try using spacers to move them inward and also see if HR drum steering arms will fit.

I am slightly happier with the kit now :-/ but not dancing around happy.  

Nicko, if you are going to consider doing this, before you fit the new king pins have the back of the spindle plate machined flat around the top two holes.  The bottom ones should already be done where the steering arm fits but the tops arn't and I think this is where all my grief is originating from.  If this was done, it should allow the caliper adapter plate to not only sit more flush, but it would also bring it out slightly and may eleviate the problem I have with the pads causing the disks to lock up when they are tightened up.  I will probably have a go at grinding mine flat tomorrow, but if they are off the car have them machined.

Also, the kit came with 7/16 unc bolts, throw them out and go with unf, Holden used fine thread in the first place for a reason.

[ChrisB]

Sorry to hear your having these dramas, a set of instructions would of been good.

Curiously watching from afar !!!!


Cheers ChrisB  

[Burnsy]

They are fitted now I just have to sort out my rear end - I hate not being able to drive my car!

I fitted the adapter kit with the kingpins on the car, if you plan on fitting them and you have your kingpins off, do the machining work outlined below BEFORE FITTING THE KINGPINS but I would not say it is so hard as to be worth removing the kingpins for the job alone.

Instructions:
1.  Drill out all four backing plate holes on the spindle to allow for a 7/16 (suggest unf not unc) tap - consult a chart to determine drill size, this is the tap size.

2.  If you have the kingpins off the car, have the back of the top holes machined flat to the same thickness as the bottom holes (that are already machined on the standard item), machine as large an area as is required so the adapter plate will sit flush when lined up with the holes.

If you are doing it on the car, use a small angle grinder with a thin inox disk to slice the back off as best you can to achieve the same result.

3.  Fit up the adapter and see if the calipers will clear the top of the kingpin, if not, you will need to slice/grind the edge off the rear top of the kingpin to allow the caliper to bolt up.

4.  Bolt it all up on the car and check clearances.

5.  Fit the spacer in front of the rear bearing race on the disk rotor (this means the spacer goes in before the race goes in).

6.  Bolt the disk on (you will need to take the pad holder thingy - for want of a better name - off of the calipers to do this).  Drill the front of the spindle to allow for a split pin to be fitted in the castle nut (the spacer has moved the hub out so you can't use the original hole).

7.  Fit the disk pads and check that there is enough clearance to allow the disks to be turned in the calipers.  If you machine the back of your kingpins down as described above I think the clearances will be OK.  

As I had to grind mine back whilst they where in place, I could not get them down to the same thickness as the factory machined bottom holes and as such had to fit a spacer (1-2mm) between the caliper and the pad holder to allow enough pad clearance otherwise my disks were locked against the outer pad.

8. Obtain steering arms from an EJ (EH is probably the same?) to use in place of your originals as these do not protrude out to allow the old drums to be bolted to them like the earlier models.  Fit them up, you may still need to grind a millimetre or so off the outermost section to clear the disk rotor.

8.  Check everything again!

I am no mechanic or automotive engineer so this is just my take on it.  Although I found the modification to be trying because I had no idea what I needed to do, I just had the parts as purchased from a guy in the paper and no instructions, I would do it again with the above info.

I have taken some pictures along the way, once they are developed I will post them for reference as my mechanical language is limited and it may not be clear what I mean.  Email me if you have any specific queries and we can have a chat.