bullet proof engine parts

[blown red]

I came across an artical in a magazine about cryogenic freezing of engine parts to make them unbrakeable.

They freeze any engine parts u want to -196 deg. for 8 hours then bring them slowly back to normal temp. increasing their strength by 300%.

I want my crank and rods done but not sure if its too good to be true.

Does anyone know anything about this process, or know of anyone who has had it done?

Blown red

[fastjbav6]

I think the down side is that parts would be too hard to machine if you ever have to do any repairs.

Seb

[blown red]

hi fastjbav6
   
   I have thought about that, and all machining would need to be done before you have the parts frozen.

   I asked if it would it be as strong as having the crank nitrided or buying the best after market parts and his reply was, no, it would be stronger.

   When u nitried engine parts it only case hardens the outer microns of the steel, where cryogenic freezing strengthens to the core and actually reconstructs the steel mollicules/fragements so that any stress built up in the steel when it was made and machined is dispersed.

    It also causes less friction and so spins more freeley.

    The best thing is it only costs around $5 a kilo, so to have my crank, rods and a heap of other parts done is only going to cost me around $200 - $300.

    So, if it was to have any disadvantages, the most it has cost me is bugger all.

    I will still try this process and let u all know how i went. This process is new to Australia but the U.S. has been using it for a couple of years.

    If u want to know more about it drop me a line.
Im as curious as the next guy.

[chesy]

Where are you getting this done ?? Yeah, I'm interested, and not only for engine parts. If a 300% strength increase is attainable, there is a million things you could use this for.

[blown red]

Hey there chesy.

   I thought the same thing, there is a million things that could be done with it, diff centers,gearboxes, engine parts, you can even have your brake disks done so they would last a life time.
   The posabilities are endless.

   The mob who do it is in sydney, and they are called Cryotuff.

   I have still to have my crank and rods ballanced and blue printed before i can have the process done.

   I am running a blower and so i need all the strength i can get. I cant wait to try it.

   You can even have your pistons done to stop worping on detonation to have a complete seal with no blow-by increasing hp.

   In the artical i read, they striped a stock engine, had everything go through the freezing process, CHANGING NOTHING ( NO MODIFYING), put it back together and because there is less friction now, the engine gained something like 20 or 30 HP and the engine now reved another 100 or 200 rpms.

   Hope this helps you, let me know how you went.

   Cheers

   Blown red

[Fast_Eddie]

It worked for Austin Powers  

[Shayne]

 ;)Maybe you could freeze the whole car.  Do you think it helped this bloke?

[chesy]

Ummm.......hang on a sec. I may be wrong, but as I understand it, some things like gearbox and diff parts, axles etc, are case hardened. As mentioned, this means the hardness is only a few microns think on the surface, but that means that the remaining metal doesnt suffer from brittleness makign it susceptible to breakage. There is no reason why they couldnt make parts out of super hard material in the first place, besides cost, so why dont they ?
As hardness increases, so does brittleness, usually. I'd be careful with this, you might find that you have created more problems than you have solved.
I'll be interested to follow how it goes though.

[Ed]

I dont think you could have tools last long enough to machine super hard metal.

doesnt tempering normally alleviate the brittleness?

Cheers  

Ed

[blown red]

   Hey there.

  All i know about it is that when cranks and other parts are formed and machined, they have built up kinetic (not sure on spelling on that one)energy in the metal.
 
  There are ment to be a couple of things that freezing  does to the metal.
 
  One of the advantages this freezing process apparently does, is re-arange the make-up of the metals structure, so that all the built up energy is released(dispersed).

  The other advantage is that it leaves the surface(right through to the core) hardened.

  When a drag car is at full noise and something lets go (i.e. crank, rods,ect.), its usualy caused by a weakness, and this weakness is this built up energy when it was made.

   I dont know enough about it, this why i posted it. I need feed-back.

  I will have a scout through my old mags and see if i can find the artical, and ill post the whole artical on this page.

  This also is the reason why big HP engines (350,400 chevs) cranks are made from 4130 steel, but being an old six cylinder, no companies are going to spend the money on making such a crank to handle large amounts of HP. Thus is the whole idea for wanting to try the flamming thig out.

  Cheers chesy & ed for the feed back.

[chesy]

Tempering involves heating the metal to a point where it's inherit crystalline structure changes, and then quenching it, so that that structure is frozen in place. Obviously the core of the metal cools slower so the hardening effect is restricted to the surface.
I would imagine, and i must say I'm no expert at all, that a hardening that takes affect right through the metal will only make it more to susceptible to breakage from shock-loading. I can't imagine that freezing the metal would do anything to the structure of the metal at all.
But........ I am prepared to stand corrected on this.
If it works, good on em.
If it doesnt, and they manage to fleece the unsuspecting public of a few bob......who can blame them really ??
I am still interested to see the outcome.
A chat with the metalurgy section of a local TAFE or university might be enlightening.
Yeah.........I'm curious.

[chesy]

Interestingly.......a web search on "cryotuff" found nothing.

[Ed]

Im keen to know more, and like you I coulnt find the number of CryoTUff, nor much more info except similar discussions on other forums.

any contact details out there ?


Cheers

Ed

[blown red]

   Howdy guys.

   I just had a looked through my old magazines, and found the artical on cryotuff that i read about in the first place.

   I found their number and gave them a call, just to make sure  that they are still doing the cryogenic freezing.

   Guess what........They are. I just had a chat to the bloke, about 2 mins ago.

   I asked if it will make the steel brittle once its done and he said, no.He said they cant change the make up of the steel, they just make it harder wearing.

   He said that they take out all the gostenyte(spelling ?)out of the metal changing the mellicular (?).
of it.

   Anyway heres the number and have a chat to them your self. Cryotuff - 0297730647.

   Also i asked a mechanic mate that drinks at my local,  what he thought about it. He said that in a V8 it would be ok, but he said in a six cylinder the engine being so long, you actually  depend on a little bit of flex in the crank shaft. Just to take a bit of stress/shock.

  I dont know. Maybe  

[Shayne]

here is a website with a bit of info.  There are bound to be more.

http://www.cryogenicsolutions.com

As a suggestion, try a search through google or yahoo on 'cryogenic metal toughening' or something similar.

cheers, Shayne.

[Shayne]

Here's an aussie website.  still think the whole car would be the go

http://members.ozemail.com.au/~mtce/coldinfo.htm

[Effie C]

Quote from above site (see Shayne's post)

Cryo treatment of metal involves controlled cooling below 0° C

We in Canberra must be lucky, we only have to park our cars outside during winter and the parts regularly get below 0 C , does this mean that our cars are less stressed and stronger?
Another reason to live in the land of snow and ice
John M

[blown red]

 Another thing i forgot to mention.

   Its not just ferris metals that can be done, you can even have aluminium done, which makes it as strong as steel, but still the weight of aluminium.

   How cools that (ha ha). Ok ,too much.

   No really, it does.

   Blown red.

   

[normd]

Hey Blown Red
   Thanks for starting this thread , and also Shayne for posting the links,     thats great reading.

   Norm  

[gp]

Hi guys,
I found out on Thursday nite that a mate of mine who races Group N/Appendix J had the crankshaft in his son's EH frozen 18 months ago. He hasn't had any trouble with it in those 18 months, but red's don't usually have crank trouble anyway, so he's not sure if it was worth the money or not.
He's had the crank in his 48/215 (grey motor) nitrided, which apparently works as well, because he's only broken 1 crank in 10 years of racing, and it regularly sees well over 7000rpm.  

Cheers,

Graham.