Jolls FC Ute Project

[Errol62]

I’m with you Craig. They have to be straight six, bench seat. I’m running a red six, all synchro, with Roger Hancock column shift conversion in my FB ute.


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[ardiesse]

Craig,

Don't be in too much of a hurry to behead the grey.  If you have a compressor and a 14 mm spark plug adaptor, you can troubleshoot low compression easily -

Take the manifolds off.

Go through the firing order with each cylinder at TDC of the compression stroke.  Squirt a little WD-40 or kerosene on top of the valve heads via the intake and exhaust ports, then pressurise the combustion chamber (you'll need to stop the motor from turning).

Listen.  A deep wheezing sound down in the engine's guts means leaking piston rings.  Bubbling sounds indicate leaking valves.

If the compressions you obtained are evenly low, check the calibration of your compression gauge.

Oh, and if you have a vacuum gauge, you can check for head gasket leaks.  Here, it's best to loosen off the rocker pedestal bolts and nuts completely, so all the valves are closed.
Pressurise (say) no. 2, and connect the vacuum gauge to no. 3's spark plug hole.  Any positive pressure at all in no. 3 means a head gasket leak between the two cylinders.

Repeat the test with cylinders 4 and 5.  These two pairs of cylinders in grey motors tend to have poor head gasket sealing.

Rob

P.S. - there's a bloke in Bungendore who has a freshly built grey motor on a stand, with all accessories, twin Strombergs and tubular headers.  Would you be interested?

[Jolls]

Craig,

Don't be in too much of a hurry to behead the grey.  If you have a compressor and a 14 mm spark plug adaptor, you can troubleshoot low compression easily -

Take the manifolds off.

Go through the firing order with each cylinder at TDC of the compression stroke.  Squirt a little WD-40 or kerosene on top of the valve heads via the intake and exhaust ports, then pressurise the combustion chamber (you'll need to stop the motor from turning).

Listen.  A deep wheezing sound down in the engine's guts means leaking piston rings.  Bubbling sounds indicate leaking valves.

If the compressions you obtained are evenly low, check the calibration of your compression gauge.

Oh, and if you have a vacuum gauge, you can check for head gasket leaks.  Here, it's best to loosen off the rocker pedestal bolts and nuts completely, so all the valves are closed.
Pressurise (say) no. 2, and connect the vacuum gauge to no. 3's spark plug hole.  Any positive pressure at all in no. 3 means a head gasket leak between the two cylinders.

Repeat the test with cylinders 4 and 5.  These two pairs of cylinders in grey motors tend to have poor head gasket sealing.

Rob

P.S. - there's a bloke in Bungendore who has a freshly built grey motor on a stand, with all accessories, twin Strombergs and tubular headers.  Would you be interested?

Thanks Rob,

I will do those checks before I behead the beast so I know what work will be required. I have always planned on gettign some work doen on the head. I expect you are aware of Chris Finn. He is advertising on Marketplace to crack tested and hot tank the head, install 202 valves withhardened seats and 308 V8 springs for $880. Bottom end will depend on what I find I guess - but plans for a mild cam, lightened flywhee and hone at best case. If the bloke in Bungendore has something ready to go at the right price I'm definitely interested. I can then work on this motor in slow time.
Cheers
Craig

[Jolls]

Go through the firing order with each cylinder at TDC of the compression stroke.  Squirt a little WD-40 or kerosene on top of the valve heads via the intake and exhaust ports, then pressurise the combustion chamber (you'll need to stop the motor from turning).

Listen.  A deep wheezing sound down in the engine's guts means leaking piston rings.  Bubbling sounds indicate leaking valves.

If the compressions you obtained are evenly low, check the calibration of your compression gauge.

So did the test above - the valves seal fine the problem lies in the rings. I expect that they are stuck in the grooves. Once I get some time I will behead it and remove the innards to see what tale they tell.

I have had a good look at the engine I picked up from the farm - she was a leaky old thing before they put her into the shed. Engine number is B27861 so an FB 138 engine and if the info I have gained off the net is correct it would be a 1960 build. I will strip it down as well and make a decision on how to progress.

I heard from Brett out at Bungendore, nice engine he has built there and at a good price. I am contemplating the option but will wait to see what I find before I commit either way.

Cheers n Beers
Jolls

[Jolls]

So it was raining again today so toddled off into the shed after lunch. Decided that with such consistently low readings across all 6 cylinders the rings are the problem - could be gone, could simply be stuck after 15 - 20 years sitting idle. Either way it looks like I will need to pull the old girl apart and see what is revealed. However, as a bit of a "Hail Mary" play I decided to see if I could get her up and running. I mean why build a test stand and then not use it. Plumbed up a gravity fed ful system off the hoist with a bit of hose and a funnel into an old fuel line, connected up the coil with an on off switch. checked the timing was about right, hooked up the jumper leads and gave it a burl.

You can check the video out here:


Suffice to stay the timing is a little out but she ran OK. After we warmed her up a bit we pulled the pugs to check the compression readings - up to between 80 and 90 psi so a definite improvement but still well below what I want out of her. So I expect that our initial assessmant of the rings being stuck in the grooves was close to the mark. We will see what the rest of the story is when we strip her down I expect.

[Jolls]

Well that didn't work.

The link for the video is: https://www.youtube.com/shorts/zMijPLAuTYE

[ardiesse]

Lean fuel mixture - possibly partially blocked jets, maybe a vacuum leak.
Ignition timing retarded.

But I don't see any blowby coming out the breather pipe, so I'd take a lot of convincing about piston rings stuck in the grooves.

Rob

[Jolls]

Lean fuel mixture - possibly partially blocked jets, maybe a vacuum leak.
Ignition timing retarded.
But I don't see any blowby coming out the breather pipe, so I'd take a lot of convincing about piston rings stuck in the grooves.
Rob

Hi Rob,
100% on the retarded timing and the carby definitely needs an good clean and service. We were discussing the lack of pressure in the crank case and thought valves - but not likely that it would be consistent across all 6 pots if the valves were a problem. Given the increase in compression of around 15% across all of the cylinders I can't explain it any other way. If it was valves I would expect a variation in readings and the compression to remain steady at around 75 psi. The compression tester could be reading low; but is it a near new SP tools kit - not a $5 job made of chinesium so I doubt it lies there - but something we have to check.

Next step is to give the carby a clean and get is st up with some linkages, grab a fan belt, hook up the radiator, adjust the timing a little and get it running for a decent duration. 35 seconds isn't enough. The one thing I did notice is that is dounded pretty quiet, less the exhaust noise out of the open manifold.

We will learn as we go.
 

[Errol62]

Very impressed with your technical ability in getting a video happening Craig. Never mind getting the engine running. Sounds solid anyway mate. 👍


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[Jolls]

Very impressed with your technical ability in getting a video happening Craig. Never mind getting the engine running. Sounds solid anyway mate. 👍

Hi Clay, I can't take much credit for the vid; son 3 took it. It was a funny afternoon as son 2 (a mechanic) sat in bewilderment at how the distributor and timing was set from the flywheel.  I tried to upload it using the You Tube icon but it failed miserably. Pretty easy to do - create a You Tube presence, take a video on your phone and upload it to your computer and from the computer to YouTube. I can talk you through it if you are keen.
Cheers n Beers
Craig

[Errol62]

Thanks mate. I get by happily with a phone and iPad. I may have to invest in a ‘puter one day.


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[my8thholden]

Craig ..A even increase in compression is a good sign ...after you have done your tweeks and had it running for a good time and at temperature no doubt you will check compression again , for piece of mind you can , when she is hot and running , put a piece of cloth in road draft tube and block it off and remove the oil filler cap , and prevent wind from fan ,if there is excessive " blow by " it will pump fumes out the oil filler cap opening ..have a peek in and check oil on rocker shaft ..Vern ..

[Jolls]

Craig ..A even increase in compression is a good sign ...after you have done your tweeks and had it running for a good time and at temperature no doubt you will check compression again , for piece of mind you can , when she is hot and running , put a piece of cloth in road draft tube and block it off and remove the oil filler cap , and prevent wind from fan ,if there is excessive " blow by " it will pump fumes out the oil filler cap opening ..have a peek in and check oil on rocker shaft ..Vern ..

I did a recheck and adjust fo the timing and it is now an easy start and no problems with backfire; compression is still low and the rockers all rock. Oil is definitely getting to where it should be at the top end. I am seeing some "oil" smoke emenating from the oil filler cap and when I had it running with the rocker cover off. Can't be sure its blowby or if it is simply old oil burning off - can't give it a long enough run until I replace the water pump. I'll also refresh the fuel pump while I am at it and see if I can't have all of the support systems working at least.

Son 2 is putting the LS1 into the Crewman project tomorrow so I should get a bit of shed space back. I'll pull down the FB motor and check it over while I wait for part for this one.

Cheers n Beers
Craig

[my8thholden]

back in the day the oils then did get fumy , I can recall many a car with a stream of smoke coming out of the road draught tube ,we always blamed pre detergent oils, the oil filer cap is a breather in its self , the road draught tube ,cut at an angle as it is was designed to draw fumes away, then they had to clean up their act and came up with PCV valves ..oil will get past the rings in some engines into the combustion chamber , compression can get past and pressureise the sump ...burning oil is evident in exhaust gas and spark plugs ..blow by is evident as described earlier ..having said all that , modern day oils of course resist all that which makes identifing what is what....In the case of the engine in my FC ..a " L" engine number .bench tested running , very fumy....when I pulled it down , it mic 'd up ok ..little wear in bore , piston rings coked up in ring lands , have to dig them out, solid Perfect Circle oil rings ..NOT GOOD ..so honed bore ,slightly oversize compression rings , and four piece oil control rings , spreader, segmented keeper,and two rails per piston , easy to fit on piston , but bugger to be sure not overlapping on installation ..I actually test fitted a couple of pistons a few times to be sure what looked right actually was ..by the way , somewhere in its life the engine had been bored 3"1/16" plus .030" ...and I fitted Harvs head gasket ..round two ..engine runs quite well , 120psi each pot , head shaved , was the practice in the day ..Vern .
cse in the day ...

[my8thholden]

Craig ,,I meant to say also ..AS it seems the thing that concerns you is the compression and fuming of oil and etc ..and whats going on in the engine that you cant see..
 MY thinking is ,back in the day if the old heavy sludgie oils can get to where it did , where will modern day oils get ,so getting information and talking to JP pistons in SA..
the choise of rings became very important , that led to control of oil being as important as even compression..Vern ..

[Jolls]

Craig ,,I meant to say also ..AS it seems the thing that concerns you is the compression and fuming of oil and etc ..and whats going on in the engine that you cant see..
 MY thinking is ,back in the day if the old heavy sludgie oils can get to where it did , where will modern day oils get ,so getting information and talking to JP pistons in SA..
the choise of rings became very important , that led to control of oil being as important as even compression..Vern ..

Thanks Vern,

Appreciate the advice and the heads up on the oil rings. I have used JP on previous builds I have done so I expect I will go back to them if I need pistons/rins etc.

The motor runs really well now that the timing has been adjusted. I am concerned that the compression is still 30-35 psi below spec (from the manual). The fuming isn't a huge concern at the moment as it could well be grubby oil transfer from hands/spills etc starting to burn off. Having said that I have only run the motor a couple of times in 30 -40 second bursts. Certainly the oil pump is working well, the head seems to be in good shape and the rockers are set nicely, the bottom end sounds as though it is in good shape and the the carby operates as it should (although needs a good clean). Electrically the distributor, coil and starter motor are fine.

Once I get hold of a working water pump I'll set it up, along with the generator and regulator, to do a decent run and see what occurs. Along with the observations and post run tests, I can read the plugs, check the electrcial system's major components and have a much better feel for what to focus on when I strip her down.

Engine and box went into the Crewman project yesterday so I will have some space available to on work both motors; the running L series and the non running B. I also now have some room on the hoist to throw the FC roller on to assess the suspension, steering etc and get stuck into the checking/fixing the wiring.

Small steps - but same as eating an elephant - just one bite at a time!

Cheers n Beers
Craig

[Jolls]

Had a bit of time to spare this afternoon so off into the shed to tinker.. While I wait for the water pump to arrive I thought I would take a peek inside the FB motor to see what is preventing it from turning over. Dropped what little oil there was and found it to be a little milky - not a great sign. Ripped out the dizzy - she is frozen so will need to do some work there to free it up. Pulled off the rocker cover and side plate - every thing looked OK. Removed the manifolds and found the inlet to No 1 was rusty so at some stage water has entered through the manifold. Didn't appear to be too bad and should clean up fine. Next came the rocker gear - apart from two odd sized bolt heads; the rocker gear came off easily. The push rods all look to be straight and although the oil in a couple of the cam followers seemed to be a bit watery
they had no mushrooming and look to be in quite reasonable shape. Cracked the head and pulled it off. Not what I wanted to see, but what I expected to see. If it was a runner before it was laid up in the shed and the bores were open to the atmosphere the inevitable rust followed.





Surprisingly, after finding the rust in the inlet to No 1 there was little rust there - but 2, 5 and 6 are quite rusty - unfortunatley a bit beyond surface rust. I doubt that a hone will suffice in getting them back up to speed. The piston tops look fine so I have let them soak in a bit of diesel overnight. I will turn her over tomorrow and see what is hiding under the pan. I trust that the bearings and crank are OK if so this one may be an easy salvage.

If I have it right - the only difference, besides some casting changes, between the FC and FB/EK is the piston size, a change in compression and an increase in oil pressure at idle. I assume the oil pressure was simply a change in the spring. How was the compression increased - head shaved?

So a couple of questions for the wise ones on grey motors in general:

Can the FC block be successfully bored to 138 or was the casting changed to provide more meat to play with?
Is there a discernable difference between the FC and FB/EK head?

Will update you with my bottom end findings tomorrow.

Cheers n Beers
Jolls

[Jolls]

So I soaked the pistons in a bit of deisel overnight. Turned the old grey over on the stand and stripped out what I could of the bottom end. I'll get to that bit later.

She was definitely and agricultural donk - not too many of the correct nuts and bolts left on her - probably dropped in the paddock when being repaired over time. I guess it tells a bit of a story about the life she probably endured and what probably found its way into the internals of the old girl over time.

This is what I found when I removed the sump:



While she looked pretty clean; but once I started getting into the important parts things weren't that great.

The first problem I faced is that I couldn't remove the woodruff key from the crank; so the oil slinger won't come off, so the cam can't come out. Applied a bit of heat to the opposite side of the key - still no movement. I have soaked it in WD40 and will have another look tomorrow. Not to be deterred I pulled off all the conrod bearing caps - that was when I noticed that every one of the crankshaft journals was scored. Not bad - but bad enough. It certainly none of them pass the fingernail test. I fully expect the main journals will be in the same condition.



As soon as I removed the bearing caps the crank was free. As 3 and 4 pistons were at the top of their stroke I was able to pop them both out with the tap of a wooden drift. No 1 was not rusted so was an easy push through as well. 2, 5 and 6 took a little more persuasion but once they broke free I was able to tap them out gently. Rings were gunked up but all moving freely.

With the pistons out I was able to do some more checks - I had planned on running the verniers over her but decided against it. There is a good wear lip around the top of every cylinder and the rust, particularly in 5 and 6 is more than a little surface rust that will hone out.

Assessment is that a rebore and regrind of the crank journals with the associated pistons, rings and bearings is the minimum that could be done to have her running well again. I'm sure I could get her back running in her current state - but I expect performance would be pretty poor. I guess we will see what the end result is with the 132 before deciding which one to put time and energy into first. I doubt that the extra couple of horses between the two will be all that noticable so I think the 132 is marginally in front - simply bacause she runs and I can keep the engine/ute combo together.

I have been offered a 138 that has been rebuilt so I will keep that as an option once I know what the price will be to get one of these old girls back in shape.

Cheers n Beers
Jolls

[ardiesse]

Craig,

You might be surprised about the bore condition and rust.  If you're brave, try some phosphoric-acid-based rust converter (eg. Ranex) on the cylinder walls, once the pistons are out.  Pull a second compression ring off a piston, run it down to the bottom of the bore, measure the gap, then run the ring right up to just under the lip and measure the gap again.  Divide the difference by 3 to give bore wear.  My rule of thumb is you're fine with less than 0.005" bore wear, and even up to 0.008" is OK.  Don't be in too much of a hurry to regrind the crank.  Scored crankpins are normal, unfortunately.  The main bearing journals will be the decider.  Up to 0.003" wear is OK.  Much more than that and your main bearings will be a little noisy.

To remove the Woodruff key, here's a trick I learnt from Harv: using a brass drift, hit down on the rear of the key so the front rises up.  Then you can get the drift partially under the key and knock it out.  Oil slinger out, then the fun starts.

You need a 1/4" drive 7/16" AF socket for the camshaft thrust washer screws.  Any other 7/16" AF socket will not fit through the holes in the timing gear.  Camshaft out.

Impact screwdriver with a big straight blade is what you need next, for the front engine plate countersunk screws.

--------------/-------------

The photos suggest that the head gasket was sealing well.  That's a plus.

The increase in compression was achieved firstly by a revised combustion chamber design partway through FC, and then an extra 1/16" bore size when the FB came out.  Greys are generally good to bore out to 3-1/8" (144 cubes) and sometimes 3-3/16" (149).  Given a choice between an L block and a B block, go the B block.  The main bearing caps are stronger.  And if you can score a J block, use it.

*  Are you sure the motor in the photos is a B block?  The no. 2 main bearing cap is the early style.

Grey motor oil pumps went through several subtle revisions.  The one you'd be thinking of is a change to the body casting to reduce leakage past the gear teeth, but in general grey motors are very tolerant of low oil pressure at idle.  The main thing is to check the clearance of the relief valve piston in the bore.  Raid a red motor oil pump for the piston and spring if needed.

Cylinder heads:  Yes.  FX-FC heads are "single-hole" (i.e. only one tapped hole on the left side of the head).  FB-EJ heads are "two-hole".  Still prone to cracking between the exhaust valve seats though.

That's enough of a brain-dump for now.

Rob

[Jolls]

Hi Rob,

Thanks for the brain dump. I'm brave, and have nothing to lose, so I will give the phosphoric acid a crack. I am not that confident in 5/6 coming good as i can feel the pitting. Worth a try; what is there to lose?

I'll check tomorrow and report back.

The brass drift approach was attempt 2 at getting the woodruff key out. I have a 1 1/2x 1 1/2 x 10 in brass bar I nabbed from the old man's tools before my brother got hold of it. She is tight and didn't want to move. Heat was attempt 3, although I didn't try the drift a second time. I'll let it think it has won tonight and have another crack tomorrow. I will defeat it!

Camshaft bolts are already out - no issues there. Just can't pull the cam out because of the oil slinger

Head gasket was doing its job for sure. I have two of Harvs improved gaskets on the way so I can get both motors back to runners keeping one as a spare. I just need to prioritise the effort due on a time basis - looking forward to retirement so time is no longer a restriction.

Motor is definitely stamped as a B block - B27861 so if they are early bearing caps there has been something sinister in there before. I could tell by the assortment of unmatched/overlenght/underlength fasteners that someone with little attention to detail, or working in a paddock, has had a play.

I assume when you are talking about tapped holes in the head that you are referring to the holes into the water jacket for the heater/temp gauge. I have two holes in both heads - the FC and FB. If you are referring to a different tapped hole I am all ears.