'59 FC Sticky front brakes.

[Brian_NZ]

Hi Team,
Well after all the excitement of everyone's help I was able to get my wipers fixed. Next up, Sticky brakes!
The brakes on the car have always been acceptable, but just barely. My dad has an FE and the brakes on that seem better....

The car didn't get used for about 10 months while I was moving house and getting settled in a new town etc. I try to remember to not park her in the garage with the handbrake on, as I have heard that can cause issues after long periods.

When she came out for a WOF before Xmas (started like a champion as always, after a few winds to get petrol into the carb) I noticed as I went out the driveway brakeing, that one brake was sticking "on" partially, I think it was the LH front. It was dragging a bit but after moving a couple of hundred meters and working the pedal a few times it seemed to come right.
I have now noticed the same thing a few more times, only after she has been sitting for a while.

So.... Time to take the LH Front wheel off and have a look. Question is.... what the hell am I looking for  

I have the original Holden Workshop manual, and a new aftermarket one which seems to give a good breakdown of the system. But before this beginner goes poking around to much, I thought someone here might give me some pointers once again. I see according to the manual there is just one main "Return" spring. Could that be failing?

Should I start with drum removal, inspection, disassemble and clean the crap outa everything? Is Brakcleen safe to use on ALL components inside the braking system? Im a bit fan of cleaning everything up as I go as a starting point.

Thanks Team!
Bri

[Errol62]

Brian,
I have experienced a similar issue. Leaking wheel cylinders caused the shoes to be saturated in fluid, causing them to become gummy and stick to the drum. Pretty obvious if it is the same problem. Remedied by replacing wheel cylinder and shoes.


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[Brian_NZ]

 
Ahhhh Thanks Errol, makes sense. I will remove and inspect at the next opportunity. On a side note, I see Rare Spares has new (reco?) wheel Cylinders for these cars, but not the shoes? Does anyone know where the shoes might be found?

If its as expected, is it generally best to do both sides with new shoes and wheel cylinders at the same time? Heck maybe do the brake lines as well while its apart I guess?

Thanks!
Bri

[Errol62]

Buy yourself a decent flaring tool and make up your own lines or just take the old ones down the brake shop and get them duplicated. The trick is finding a reliable artisan. Shoes are getting hard to find. Get them rebonded at the same place.

The new wheel cylinders are not the best I’m told. I got my originals resleeved in stainless for about the same money. They will last forever. Master cylinder I just gave a clean and finger hone with emery and fitted new rubbers. I fitted a new VH44 remote booster but haven’t tried it yet. I did have one on wife’s FC sedan years ago and thought it worked well at the time.


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[my8thholden]

Brian ..There are endless tails of woe about early Holden brakes ,they were never a well designed ,reliable ,efficient braking system ,I am sure there are cars out there with disc brakes fitted ,not because they were seen as an improvement ,but a means of getting away from drum brakes and cylinders ..my 2002 Mazda Bravo with 180,000kms on clock still has untouched ( only had system fluid change ) original rear drum brakes ,just shoes and cylinders like Holden ,but much better design..Having said that ,we love our Holdens ,there is lots you can do ,the wheel cylinders rust internally even in the fluid and they gum up,stainless sleeving ,why ? get away from rust ,and other benefits ...what I did with my 1958 FC new master cylinders but good old wheel cylinders..check that all your components are serviceable ,ie ..if a cylinder is badly pitted internally then no amount of honing will work .your drum dia is not excessive ..Standard is 9 inches..get a 3/8" x 7/16" brake tube spanner ,or if you have got some of those heavy Taiwan ones that were about cut a slot in the ring end to fit over your brake tube to undo tube nut from cylinder bodies ..if shoe friction material needs re bonding then do it ,get new rubbers ,wheel cyl cups readily available over here ,I would get you some and send over if you need ..3 legged hone ,I actually used a flap burnisher from Bunnings in a drill ..then use FULL SYNTHETIC brake fluid after flushing old fluid out with Metho and drying thoroughly .you should get a few good years ,I am not expecting a life time solution ..cheers Vern ..

[Brian_NZ]

Hi guys,
Well not much time to investigate today. But I did get this far.
I jacked the front up,

LF is quite sticky and hard to rotate.
RF is free rotating
Both rears are semi locked on, I can rotate them by hand but it's an effort.

I checked the handbrake cable under the car, and it does seem sort of tight (yes handbrake was off! 😂😂...)

I did have an issue when I backed up a while ago that I forgot to release the hand brake. Will that tighten the cable up?

That's as far as I got, anyone got any advice on where to start? I figure the handbrake?
Should I, and how should I adjust the cable to slacken it off a bit?

Thanks!
Bri

[mcl1959]

You need to undo the handbrake cable and remove it and work the inners until they free up. Lubricate it well and reinstall. It’s a common problem and if not done properly it will cause a drag on the rear brakes.
Front left, I agree with everyone so far, you will probably find a leaking wheel cylinder
Ken

[Brian_NZ]

Thanks so much guys, im making progress, hope you are ready for a new round of questions!

So the answers seem much as everyone here suspected, if not a little worse....

-Both Front Wheel Cylinders are completely stuffed, refer pictures 02-06. Both are heavily leaking fluid and the cylinders are full of old rusty crap on the inside.

-Both Rear drums seemed to be dry. BUT as per short video 00 the pistons are NOT fully returning into the slave cylinders. This caused all sorts of confusion as I was trying to do the wheel cyl adjustment before I knew of this issue!
So every time I would stand on the brake after adjustment the wheels would start dragging again!
It doesn't take much to move the piston back, or with the wheel on you can kick the wheel, or tap it with a hammer and eventually the dragging decreases as the piston retreats into the cyl fully.

The big question is:
Is the pistons not fully retracting a possible sign of a faulty master cylinder also? Or is it likely just buggered wheel cylinders? The master cylinder is not original, but is likely still over 20 years old. It looks like the new ones you buy from rare spares with a plastic reservoir.

I would prefer to get the Stainless sleeved version of wheel cyl for better life, I think there is a place here in Invercargill NZ that can do this so I dont have to order from AU (Saves much time is all). Will ask around on Monday.

Questions questions questions:
1. I will go for 4x new wheel cylinders (or at minimum reco. SS sleeved existing). Should I go right away with also reco and SS sleeve master Cyl? Then all is new?

2. Is the SS sleeve really the best way? I seen on the net, that the dissimilar metals can cause electrolysis? Given that it looks like my wheel cyls have aluminium pistons would adding in SS sleeves make things worse?

3. Can I get new (SS?) pistons? The old ones look very corroded and dirty anyway, if reused can they be cleaned up?

4. The front shoes have plenty of meat on them, but are covered in slimy shit and brake fluid. Can these be scrubbed with brake cleaner and re-used, or should I get them relined?

5. The inside of the drums looks in OK condition, with no ridges or grooves. But the outside of the drums is very rusty and dirty. Is it possible to clean these up with a wire brush and paint? What sort of paint? High temp? See photo 07

6. Jacking points, photo 08 & 09 show where I normally lift the car. Rear on the diff head, front in the ctr of the front cross beam. Is this suitable/safe jacking locations?

lastly pic 10 shows the grand old lady im working on! Just so you know the car!  

Thanks so much guys. I am really learning heaps here. While mechanically minded, im not the sort of guy whp likes to just charge in and "give things a go" without any knowledge. So this is helping very much!



Link to pictures:
https://1drv.ms/u/s!Ak-4nGayLAm-jfk1N_fIdKg0c0iFGg?e=aV11Jx

[KFH]

I had my wheel cylinder sleeved with stainless steel and had some new pistons mad of brass. 6+ years ago and not a great deal of use.  All been good to date

[Brian_NZ]

I was wondering about getting some made up. My company uses a lot of Stainless, I can acquire some bar, and I know a fitter/Turner....
Would it work to have SS sleeve and SS pistons?
Does anyone know where to find the specs for the pistons? there is nothing listed in my FC workshop manual for the dimensions etc for the wheel cyl pistons...

Thanks!
Bri

[ardiesse]

Brian,

Your questions copied and pasted:

Questions questions questions:
1. I will go for 4x new wheel cylinders (or at minimum reco. SS sleeved existing). Should I go right away with also reco and SS sleeve master Cyl? Then all is new?

I'd advise stainless steel sleeving rather than new, including the master cylinder.  Much longer life, and more forgiving of infrequent use.

2. Is the SS sleeve really the best way? I seen on the net, that the dissimilar metals can cause electrolysis? Given that it looks like my wheel cyls have aluminium pistons would adding in SS sleeves make things worse?

It's not as bad as you would think.  Aluminium pistons in stainless sleeves work OK.

3. Can I get new (SS?) pistons? The old ones look very corroded and dirty anyway, if reused can they be cleaned up?

Yours are in mint condition compared with some that are in my cars.  Clean them up, and they'll be fine.

4. The front shoes have plenty of meat on them, but are covered in slimy shit and brake fluid. Can these be scrubbed with brake cleaner and re-used, or should I get them relined?

Here you need permission from the Powers That Be.  Get an old saucepan.  Put the brake shoes in it, just cover with water, add about a quarter-cup of front-loader laundry powder.  Bring to the boil and let simmer for half an hour or so.  Scrub clean, rinse with hot water, let dry, and re-install.  They'll be a bit grabby for the first hundred miles or so, then will settle down.

5. The inside of the drums looks in OK condition, with no ridges or grooves. But the outside of the drums is very rusty and dirty. Is it possible to clean these up with a wire brush and paint? What sort of paint? High temp? See photo 07

You can, if you think it's worth the effort.  High temp paint.

6. Jacking points, photo 08 & 09 show where I normally lift the car. Rear on the diff head, front in the ctr of the front cross beam. Is this suitable/safe jacking locations?

Good enough.  Best place for the front crossmember is not in the middle, but at the front flange between the two rivets for the outrigger.

lastly pic 10 shows the grand old lady im working on! Just so you know the car!  Cheesy

Sweet.

And the big question about the rear wheel cylinder pistons not returning:

Your handbrake's adjustment is not the culprit.  Often it is.  So either your rear brake hose is perishing inside, and only lets fluid flow in one direction; or your return springs are stretched.  Or both.

Check the hose by doing as you did in the video, but also undo the bleed nipple when the pedal's released.  If the pistons retract all the way with the bleed nipple open, then the hose is cactus and needs replacing.  If the pistons still don't retract all the way with the bleed nipple open, then the return spring's stretched.

The return spring often gets stretched beyond its elastic limit when removing or installing the brake shoes.  What you can do is bend the hooks around further (say 1/8" each end), effectively shortening the return spring.  Grind the 1/8" off the free ends of the spring so they're not impossible to install.  Reassemble the rear brakes and check that the pistons retract all the way.  You won't need to shorten the return spring too much.  Try 1/4" first.

Rob

[Brian_NZ]

Awesome Info, Thanks Rob!

I wonder if anyone has ever made their own SS Pistons, and if it worked? SS on SS wont corrode, but binding may become an issue? Wouldnt be a big deal for me to get some made up!

ill use old camping gear to boil the brake shoes  

[Maco]

Be careful using Stainless Steel Sleeves & Pistons as simular metals will pick up on each other.

[my8thholden]

Brian ..definitely check your brake hoses ,internal walls deteriorate ,will allow pressure to be applied via the foot pedal ,but can close off against just return spring pressure ,so only work one way ,and sluggish return is a good indicator of that ,usually caused by vice grips being put on hoses during brake servicing over the years , most hydraulic service guys will make new ones ..Vern

[my8thholden]

correction , made a typo . sorry ..if internal wall of hose is collapsing piston cant retract with just return spring pressure ....looked at your pics ,nice car ,and your brakes are typical , rubber dust plugs are available for the adjuster slots in the backing plate ..Vern

[Brian_NZ]

Cheers Vern,
Yea of the 8x slots there was 3x of the original dusttcovers remaining, the rest were open 😂. I seen rare spares has the rubber dust plugs so I will get some ordered, since we have a rare spares outlet in Christchurch.

Cheers 😀😀

[Fraze]

Whilst I agree with the theory that SS liners in original wheel cylinders is a good thing, in practice those SS liners can be a problem. It takes areally skilled machinist to  bore the wheel cylinders and press in the SS liners with the correct fit. where do you find someone with that sort of skill working in a brake shop? i can recount three bad experiences with resleeved wheel cylinders in recent times. !. My son's HQ Holden - had the rear cylinders sleeved - both leaked between the cyl and sleeve. 2. A mates early porsche with drum brakes - same thing, had all the wheel cylinders sleeved and several leaked between cyl. and sleeve.  3. Just last year I had all four wheel cylinders on my FC sleeved. straight away one front leaked, badly fitted sleeve so i replaced it with a new cylinder. then about 6 months later the other front started to leak also. I checked the rears and yes, one of the rears was showing sugns of leaking. So I replaced all of the wheel cylinders with new ones - no more problems. When I did the brakes on my FB ute recently i went straight to new wheel cylinders. Cheers, Fraze

[Errol62]

I did have a similar problem to Fraze. In my case they used a special loctite glue rather than press fit. Well the glue leaked on two cylinders and had about four trips back to the brake shop. Eventually the boss came 30km out of his way to deliver the last offending wheel cylinder. Wouldn't use South Glenelg Brake Service again.

Power Brakes S.A. will do it right first time. People send them stuff from all over. It wasn't power brakes, was it Fraze?

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[Fraze]

Hi Clay, I don"t know who did the work on 1 and 2, but my FC wheel cyls were from Trade Brake and Clutch in Springvale, Vic. but I can"t really blame them as they don"t do their macining in house any more but send out to a" specialist". Cheers, Fraze

[mcl1959]

I agree with Fraze, I worked in the brake industry for a while and we sent out all cylinders for professional sleeping. From memory they were sent to ABS which is a trade brake component supplier.
Ken