Jolls FC Ute Project

[ardiesse]

Craig,

It may be that the bigger main bearing caps were introduced later in B-motor production.  You got me curious now - I have a 3-3/16" B22xxx motor I was planning on warming up a bit.

If you're a good shot with a welder, (no, no, you don't want to risk damaging the crankshaft.  Belay that.)

Rob

[Jolls]

Rob,

I have plans for warming up the ute as well. So it would be great to hear your plans. At this stage I have sourced a set of triple 1 1/4" SUs and headers. I have sussed out the head work I plan to get done. The provider is Masterstroke Engineering in Sunbury Vic. I was going to ask as I got closer about their reputation and work but seeing as we are here what is known about them? They are offering to crack test, hot tank and blast the head then surface, re-thoat to suit 202 valves (inlet & exhaust), machine port, fit hardened exhaust seats, fit 308 V8 springs & modified retainers (80lbs seat pressure) and supply and install new valve guides, intake & exhaust valves.

I've heard good things about Clive's Cams to regrind the cam to add a bit of spirit but remain good as a daily driver. I expect I will need to have the cam followers refaced and lapped at the same time I get the grind done.  I'm not sure about pistons, I don't have a fel for what is available and have not done much research to date so I'm really open to advice on that one. A lightened flywheel and balance and I think I will be done.

[my8thholden]

Craig ..I'll chime in here ,,if you are basically happy with the engine and say to yourself i'll do this one ..What i would do ..take it to engine machine shop and put it in the pickle bath .. a few bucks , but cheap insurance premium ...then check it all over , crack test , then let the micrometer do the story telling ...and correct use of micrometer , by that I mean , example , when measuring the big end crank journals ,measure each journal in several places along and around it , looking for taper and ovality ,back in the day some engines had one journal only ground undersize .there is lots of things to cover when preparing an engine build..best get the machine shop to measure everything for you ..Vern ..

[Jolls]

Craig ..I'll chime in here ,,if you are basically happy with the engine and say to yourself i'll do this one ..What i would do ..take it to engine machine shop and put it in the pickle bath .. a few bucks , but cheap insurance premium ...then check it all over , crack test , then let the micrometer do the story telling ...and correct use of micrometer , by that I mean , example , when measuring the big end crank journals ,measure each journal in several places along and around it , looking for taper and ovality ,back in the day some engines had one journal only ground undersize .there is lots of things to cover when preparing an engine build..best get the machine shop to measure everything for you ..Vern ..

Thanks Vern,

Great advice. I have been in contact with two local engine builders and their advice was similar and reasonable value if all they are doing the machine work only. I'll do some more research on oversized pistons but they are a simple purchase. You are 100% correct I need to get the motor into a bath and tested to see if it is even worth progressing. Unless bad things have been heard about Masterstroke Engineering I'll send the head to them and the cam to Clive's Cams. As the B motor isn't a runner and really needs a refresh I'm leaning towards sending it off to be done first. I'm sort of hoping that the L motor will only need a hone and rings to be back up to speed - everything else about that one looks great compared to the B motor.

I have confirmed that both heads are later model two hole heads. The one on L series is M5 2 and the B series B150. If I have it right:

• The L motor head was cast on 5 Dec 62 (52 would be one hole), so out of an EJ
• The B motor head was cast on 15 Feb 60, so probably out of an FB

Cheers Craig

[ardiesse]

Craig,

Forget what I said about main bearing caps.  The number 2 and 3 main bearing caps in 132 blocks have very narrow webbing between the cap bolts.  The webbing was widened for the B blocks.  Then for the J blocks the number 2 and 3 main bearing caps were enlarged again, with longer bolts to suit.

Anyway, when you pull the sump off the L motor you'll be able to compare.

Rob

[Jolls]

Rob,

Got it -thanks for the clarification.

[Jolls]

So had another crack at the B motor after lunch.

The woodruff key took a bit of tapping on the nose to come out but she did. The leading edge is a bit manky now, I could file it but cheap enough to get another and keep this one as a "Justin".
Once that was off dismantling was no problems.
Main bearing journals are good - haven't measured them as I only have a set of digital verniers. Potentially just a linish and new bearing caps required.

Once the cam was out I spashed a bit of rust converter about 5, 6 and 2 and after washing it down gave it a hone. Surprisingly I was able to get 90% of the rust removed, still a bit under the lip of 5 and 6 but I was worried about honing it too much just in case it was salvagable inits current state.

So out with the feeler gauges to measure the compression ring gap top and bottom of the cylinder. Based on Rob's >0.005 in methodolgy in relation to wear, five of the six cylinders fail (only just) - but still a fail.

Top         Bottom         Delta   Delta/3                                                            Acceptable Gauge 1   Gauge 2      Total       Gauge 1    Gauge 2    Total      Delta    Delta/3             ?    0.032        0.014        0.046         0.032         0.014     0.046        0           0               Pass 0.032        0.016        0.048         0.032          0        0.032        0.016   0.0053         Fail 0.032        0.016        0.048         0.032          0        0.032        0.016   0.0053         Fail 0.032        0.016        0.048         0.032         0        0.032        0.016   0.0053         Fail 0.032        0.014        0.046         0.03          0            0.03        0.016   0.0053         Fail 0.032        0.016        0.048         0.032          0            0.032        0.016   0.0053          Fail

More telling is the ring gap is double plus the maximum allowable in the manual. So I guess we know why it was pulled out; she would have been pretty low on compression I expect and probably chewing a bit of oil (which probably explains the crud on the piston crowns)

The piston has no markings on the exterior. Holden is cast vertically on one interior wall and 13 on the other side. It measures up, using verniers, so not very accruate, at 3.04in (.02 in) under standard so I expect that they are the original slugs. They don't appear to have been rattling around in the bore so I need to take some more measurements to see if it is simply a case of worn rings. However, given the bore wear is at the limit I think it would be prudent go oversize. If the cam measures up OK I may get out of it lightly.

Next step is to book her into the machine shop for an assessment and we will go from there.

[ardiesse]

Craig,

Piston diameter measured at the crown is less than across the skirts.  It's best to measure across the skirts, at right angles to the piston pin axis.

About ring gaps: My grey FC's motor had 0.070" top ring gap before I re-ringed it, and it ran fine.  My Humpy's on its third set of rings, and after the last re-ring job, the top ring gaps were 0.025". It runs OK too.

Rob

[Jolls]

Piston diameter measured at the crown is less than across the skirts.  It's best to measure across the skirts, at right angles to the piston pin axis.

I took both - the skirt measurement was 3.055 (still under what it should be - but again verniers are an inaccurate way of measuring. I'm sure I could re-ring it and get some more time out of her but I don't want to have to do it again so will take it in and get it cleaned up and measured up then take it from there. Best case is we hone and linish, new rings and bearigns and crack on. Worst case is about $3K in machining - I'm thinking that we will be somewhere in between!

[ardiesse]

The major show-stopper with re-using pistons is worn top ring grooves.  Roll the second compression ring around the top groove and measure the side clearance with a feeler gauge.  Anything above 0.003", and your oil consumption will rise.

It'd be interesting to see if your crankshaft is still nominally standard size, given that the pistons appear to be . . .

Rob

[my8thholden]

Craig ..Mixing of main bearing caps in theory means line boring ..in all engines the caps are mated to that engine ..main bearing cap failure in standard or mildly worked engines is rare ..Rob is correct , pistons are oval , at least below the piston pin ..you can expand the skirt of a piston to reduce " slap " in the bore ..some shops have them . funny little dished cradle with a long arm acts like a hammer ,you roll the skirt backwards and forwards gently , too much and it wont go down the bore ..I dont believe pistons have to go back in the same pot .I put the one that feels right and just seems to be correct in that bore , con rods ? keep them where they came from unless you suspect something .By the way , weigh all your components and make them the same weight , I have been amazed at the difference between assembled conrods...when I worked in engine reconditioning pistons came in a box of six with rings and pins fitted ,each piston had a coloured paint spot on top , that was your final bore honeing clearance  ...you might be doing say 4 engines in a run ,blocks were all cleaned and tested and passed ok to go into the system and be machined ..say all were going to clean up with .040 thou oversize pistons so 4 boxes of pistons drawn from the store clearly marked .040 thou oversize ...open the box some had blue dot , some had red dot etc ..you would look for 4 sets all with same paint colour , saved resetting the wet hone , or even worst not remembering to ..I am talking the 1970's where machines were nothing like today ..so in a way engines are individual from the out set ..We restored a McCormick Deering W4 tractor a couple of years ago , we ordered a set of dry liners from USA , actually made in Mexico ..on arrival the pistons and rings are assembled in the liner ready for drop in ..called an " overnight Kit "we took them apart ,one piston was way heavier than the other 3 ..maybe in low rev tractor not a big deal , we machined it , all even is better than one odd one ..

[Jolls]

Thanks for the tips Vern,

I have everything laid out in order so everything can go back into its original spot if it us re-used. My gut feel is the crank will measure up OK and will just need the bigend journals linished. If we do need to do undersize the crank at any point I will undersize the lot and start from "new".

I'm taking my measurements as initial guidance - the bore wear has me preparing to go oversize so new pistons and will definitely get them to balance before I put it back together. I have been looking at pistons and the range in prices is extraodrinary - $300 on eBay to $1050 for JP from Auto Surplus (Auto Surplus have them cheaper on eBay too). My eperience with JP has been good; however, a $700 saving is something to look at. I have no ideas as to the quality of the eBay slugs.

I'd be interested to hear about the experience of others while I continue to investigate. $700 may be having a lend because it is "old" or the right sum for good quality. I trust there is some wisdom in the forum to help me out. I'd rather learn from wisdom than learn from my mistakes.

[my8thholden]

Craig ..Yes pricing today is crazy ...and your right a lot of it doesn't make sense...and car parts is one of the most baffling unfathoumamble ( you like that word )
I see sets of piston and rings in Standard sizes are considerably less expensive than oversize ..If your " L " engine if standard or first or second oversize and needs a bore , why not 3.1/16 "STD ..more choise out there ..there is a guy on this forum who is a private reconditioner down south coast I believe , he probably has those in stock and just needs a customer like you ..at least you will know exactly what your getting ..some one will know him and post his details hopefully ..Vern

[Brett027]

Brad Stephens at Mogo Vern?

Sent from my SM-T865 using Tapatalk

[Jolls]

Hi Team

I have been working hard on the hose reno, just got the new trusses up and resheeted; still got a tarp over one end as I don't have the ridge cap finished. Still a long way to go - so not much preogress on the ute. We did get the Crewman project finished and off the hoist - big job converting a pov pack V6 to an SS including aircon etc but running and ready for rego once we get a new windscreen fitted.

So the ute went upon the hoist for its first real good inspection. A bit of surface rust around the floor repairs; whcih had been done pretty well by the previous owner. From the undersdie I did spot a coupl of pinholes in the front floor; but where it has already been repaired so I expect missed welds but I will have a better look soon. Around the fuel tank does need some work - I haven't asessed it in detail to see if I can patch up the holes or if I will need to cut the two sections out and fabricate something to fix it. Certainly not major rust so pretty happy.

The front end - not so good. Both king pins have play - drivers side worse than passengers. I have a HR front end but I will save that until after I get it re-registered on standard plates. I will need to strip it down to determine what is worn and how badly before making a decision on how to resolve that one.

I trust that the pins themselves are OK and I am looking at new bushes. I note that there was a specific reaming tool for the FC - can only find EH ones on the interweb at the moment. Does anyone have an excess reaming tool that they would be willing topart with; or alternatviely have purchased a suitable modern reamer with guide that they have found works. If so i would love to know the brand/kit to save a heap of research.

Will post some photos soon - off to our local Toyaot dealer to have a chat about a 79 series V8 cruiser in preparation for our big lap!

Cheers n Beers
Jolls

[ardiesse]

Craig,

I have a Warren and Brown reamer to suit FX-FC king pins.

It's unlikely you'll be able to get by with replacing just the bushes (and then I remember I did just that . . .).
The Rare Spares king pin kits are supplied with 0.010" oversize pins.  This is good in that you don't have to replace the old bushes.  It is bad in that you have to machine out the steering knuckle supports to take the larger pin.  I have it on good authority (Drew at FB-EK) that this operation is a complete pain in the arse, due to the difficulty of setting up the steering knuckle support in a machine, and the hardness of the forging.

So - check the fit of the pins in the uprights.  They're supposed to be almost size-for-size, but the king pins often loosen, start to rock, and flog out the hole in the upright.  If your pins don't rock in the uprights, you may be able to replace the bushes only, if the pins aren't worn.

See https://forum.fefcholden.club/index.php?topic=26930.0

Rob

[Jolls]

Hi Rob

Thanks for the update I'll pull it down and develop a plan to tackle it from there.

Cheers
Craig