Wheel numbers

[hsv-001]

I paid $150 for 2 nangkang  205-60-13 on ebay and fitted them myself and then $85 each fitted and balanced at my local tyre store . Checked around before purchase and $85-$110 fitted and balanced seemed the norm.

[Professor Grey]

G'day Dave,
If you have standard FE/FC brake drums, those chromies won't suit.
Of course the stud holes line up etc, but the bumps (dimples) on the brake drums prevent the back of the wheel centre making proper contact with the drum.
You will end up with the same problems related in another thread.http://fefcholden.org.au/forum/index.php/topic,18080.msg147042.html#msg147042
Sorry to rain on your parade, but I'd hate to see you come a cropper when the wheels fell off.
If anybody has a fix for this, I'd be very interested as I have the same problem.
The previous owner of my project unknowingly had the exact same wheel centres as yours and when one of his front wheels came off he suspected someone had tampered with his wheel nuts.
It has taken me quite a while to get to the bottom of this mystery,
Cheers,
Prof.

[DJ]

[/quote]

I paid $150 for 2 nangkang  205-60-13 on ebay and fitted them myself and then $85 each fitted and balanced at my local tyre store . Checked around before purchase and $85-$110 fitted and balanced seemed the norm.

Thanks for the info.

[DJ]

G'day Dave,
If you have standard FE/FC brake drums, those chromies won't suit.
Of course the stud holes line up etc, but the bumps (dimples) on the brake drums prevent the back of the wheel centre making proper contact with the drum.
You will end up with the same problems related in another thread.http://fefcholden.org.au/forum/index.php/topic,18080.msg147042.html#msg147042
Sorry to rain on your parade, but I'd hate to see you come a cropper when the wheels fell off.
If anybody has a fix for this, I'd be very interested as I have the same problem.
The previous owner of my project unknowingly had the exact same wheel centres as yours and when one of his front wheels came off he suspected someone had tampered with his wheel nuts.
It has taken me quite a while to get to the bottom of this mystery,
Cheers,
Prof.

I do recall reading this a while back, thanks for the reminder.
I'll read it again. I suppose there's little chance of the rim holes lining up with brake drum shape.
Dave.

[DJ]

I can see the issue with aftermarket rims but does this same issue arise with Torana rims on FC drums?

[Professor Grey]

I can see the issue with aftermarket rims but does this same issue arise with Torana rims on FC drums?

G'day Dave,
If all Torana centres are the same as the ones in your pics then yes, there is a problem.
The "lumps" on the drums hold the centres off the drums.
Apparently it's not a problem with later model drums which are flat. (from EH onwards?)
Maybe someone else has better info. I'm only conversant with FE/FC.
I can take pics and post them up if anyone requires.
Cheers,
Prof.

[DJ]

It's easier to recognise the difference once you know what to look for & why.
Thanks for the interesting discussion everyone.
I now have a far better chance of getting it right the first time.

[hsv-001]

Like I said other places on this forum , this problem with early rim centres was common knowledge back in the day. But back to the original subject . About 30 years ago I bought my chromed 7x13 HR rims new from ROH and when they arrived one was reversed and not a match to the others .I am sorry I can't remember the numbers on that one but the first three have 7JJ13 and 9304 and the later one has 7JJ13 and 4110 so I'm thinking that because I only got another rim and got my centre rechromed and welded in that the numbers only refer to the rim not the centre . The later numbers being that the 4 is common is centre position and the rest is month and year .Just a guess . Haydn

[DJ]

The rim numbers (4 275) remain a bit of a mystery but the most common thinking is that they represent a date -
  4: the 4th day or 4th week
  2: the 2nd month
 75: the year
For this example it could be the case since the owner advised they were from an LH/'75 Torana.
The rims had been widened as Jim noted.  I can find nothing to suggest the numbers relate to customisation. 
Examples on some other rims don't seem to match anything like a manufactured date.
Holden Australia have no records dating back far enough so were unable to draw on any technical reference.

Haydn, I'm a but confused with your example below (doesn't take much).
Anyway, you have probably come across the suggestion for 14" rims put to me today - HT rims with the centres reversed will suit a stock FCs (but the original hubcaps won't fit). Do you know if the rim sits against the drum well enough to overcome the issues described?

[hsv-001]

My example of the numbers was to show that the numbers only relate to the outer rim . The centre is put in later and most definitely with chrome rims ROH did the rims and you must specify the offset . I would assume that a reversed rim would be numbered different as the valve stem hole would be filled and redrilled . From memory a standard HK,HT,HG rim may still bend your drum or bind your brakes .Although it is reversed ,it still bolts on the same. The offset is important only in regard to the upper ball joint on a HR front end with HR stub axles and rotors. But I guess the question is how to fit later rims on early brake drums . With no regard for the law , I would say 3mm spacer plate behind the rims . Like was stock on torana and just bolt those chrome torana rims on . Could do the same with 14" but if the local laws say you can't do this then you probably have a better argument with the torana rims . Haydn

[fcwrangler]

I had a look at an old drum and my standard rims the drums have a hump between each stud hole and the rims have a corresponding hollow. I also have a couple of original Torana rims which don't have the hollows, I also checked the Dragway five spokes I'm putting on the car and the inside of the spokes are hollow so they will fit the FC drums. I think the only way to fit Torana rims safely, would be to upgrade to EJ-EH brakes as their drum faces are flat. I also have a rusty FB van, so I'll check the drums tomorrow and see if they have the humps or not.
Jim

[DJ]

As Haydn described earlier.
eBay - Holden Torana LC LJ XU-1 & Bathurst Monaro Original wheel spacer ......
..... one only , used original General Motors Holden wheel spacer in excellent used condition has been stored for over 35 years these were used on LC and LJ xu-1 torana's on front and rear  and rear of the HK HT HG bathurst Monaro's  a must have rare  original part

http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/Holden-Torana-LC-LJ-XU-1-Bathurst-Monaro-Original-wheel-spacer-/231136884411?pt=AU_Car_Parts_Accessories&hash=item35d0d4f6bb&_uhb=1

Would like to see one on an FC drum to better understand the benefit (is it shaped on one side?).

[hsv-001]

Not certain ,but they seemed to spread the pressure against the rim more evenly . I don't recall having any problems when I run these ,but then the rims and drums had less age back then .Haydn

[DJ]

...... but then the rims and drums had less age back then .Haydn

I think this is probably an important factor too.

[fcwrangler]

from memory, they used the spacers for the wider rims so they would clear the steering arms? as they where fitted to the XU1s with globe mags. the standard steel rims didn't use them.
Jim

[DJ]

BSA Wheels Australia have a range of spacers pictured on line & will make any to suit your specific needs for around $75 each.

http://bsawheels.com.au/products.asp?index=Spacers

I'll check here in ACT on Monday and ask about acceptable options for fitting newer rims on FC drums.
Will test a few scenarios such as Torans & 14" HT rims. ACT regulations can sometimes be more relaxed or more stringent than other states.

[DJ]

Eventually found the right number & spoke with a very helpful 'technical advisor' on the use of wheel mods & spacers.
He has an FE ute so was familiar the scenario.

In ACT, spacers are not permitted - as is the case elsewhere.
"Additional stresses may be imposed that were not included in the manufacturers' engineering design e.g. changing the offset, using longer studs."

The National Code of Practice for Light Vehicle Construction and Modification (NCOP)
http://www.infrastructure.gov.au/roads/vehicle_regulation/bulletin/vsb_ncop.aspx
11 Section LS Suspension and Steering PDF doc, includes the paragraph -
 Wheel spacers (or adaptors for dual wheel conversions) between the wheel mounting face
 and the road wheel must not be used unless fitted as original equipment by the vehicle
 manufacturer..
The code covers some other topics also & is used nationally for consistency. 
In relation to wheel modifications (e.g. FC rim centres/Torana rims), it seems to be a little grey regarding certification.
The ACT doesn't have anyone who currently does this work but maybe the businesses elsewhere are certified to to meet an appropriate standard.
It seems smartest thing to do when having a vehicle inspected initially would be to have the standard rims fitted, and avoid drawing any attention to something that could be open to interpretation by the individual on the day.
I expect 99% realise this anyway.

[hsv-001]

I think this is where the problem is . The people making the rules and most of the people given the job of enforcing the rules are not up to the job when it comes to these old cars . They will allow torana stubs ,callipers ,rotors ,HQ steering arms and torana racks but not the spacers . Like with the ASRF ,find your engineer[inspectors] and have a long talk to him before any of these mods are decided .And hope they are still around when you finally finish your car. Problems like not being told all the rules at the beginning , rules changing while the car is under construction, new inspector with differing interpretation of rules . I had this problem while building my Caleche , the original model had the top folding down behind the back seat into the luggage space and so I presumed this was ok but because the fuel tank filler pipe went through the same space the rules say that I needed a enclosed luggage compartment [I could have simply sleeved the filler pipe if I had been forewarned] so now the top has to sit outside  and on top and the back seat is steel backed . Has to be strapped down [otherwise parachute] and rubs on the paintwork, and had to extend the stalk on the dash mounted rear view mirror .This is just one of many problems you can have if you don't get the correct advice [ an informed interpretation of the rule]. This is the beauty of this forum ,you can be warned of the problems before you make a costly or time consuming mistake . Haydn

[DJ]

Have to agree on all the points you make Haydn. Even the NCOP that forms the basis nationally is a living doc. Sticking with a local engineer who is young enough & interested enough to stay in the job a few years would be certainly be advantageous.
I've learned quite a bit here about the seemingly simple job of selecting a set of wheels.
The forum certainly offers the novice some very good direction.

[ardiesse]

Here's an off-the-wall suggestion if you want to run the Torana rims on a standard FC front supension:

Get EJ-EH front brakes and backing plates, and LC-LJ hubs and drums.  The front wheel cylinders and shoes are the same on Toranas and EHs; the Torana hubs and drums are engineered for the Torana wheel centres.

Or you could change to FB-EK front brakes, then you won't need to change backing plates (possibly?); and run Torana front drums and hubs.

I think the front brake shoe width on FB, EK, EJ, EH, and LC-J Toranas is the same at 2", although be aware that the brakes changed from "semi-huck" to "duo-servo" at EJ.

Rob