A UNIVERSAL PROBLEM

[fcwrangler]

After reading and replying to Muzzie's thread "tail shaft u bolts", I have done some homework and come up with the following information.
New Universal Joints:
Rare Spares: front universal 48.215-EK part no:UJ1000 $18.95
                    Rear universal 48.215-EJ  part no:UJ1003 $150.55

Repco.          Front universal.                part no:RUJ1786 $29.00
                    Rear universal.                 part no:RUJ1758 $102.00

I then checked and measured an early and late universals. Late universal from my sedan and early from the rusted wagon I have, with the following results.
Early universal
overall length cup to cup:64.62mm
                     flange to flange:74.15mm
Shaft size: dia.14.58mm
                 len.12.64mm

flange         len.23.10mm

needle rollers: 26 in total
                dia.1.94m
                len.9.71 mm
grease seals on inside of cup

late universal
overall length cup to cup(grease nipple) 67.60mm
                     Cup to cup(ubolt) 65.65mm
Shaft size: dia.14.63mm
                 len.14.48mm

cup            dia.25.38mm
                 len.16.86mm

needle rollers: 26 in total
                      dia.1.89mm
                      len.9.87mm

Conclusion:
A: late model universals CAN NOT be used on early yokes as the yoke DOSE NOT have the recess for the cups and the u bolts don't line up and is smaller at the yoke.

B: you CAN NOT interchange the cups and flanges as the cups and needle rollers are different sizes.

I hope this will clear up any confusion.
Regards, Jim

[zl296]

you deserve a cold ale.....


 

well done.....

[ardiesse]

Jim,

Thanks for the info, but . . . unfortunately . . . things need to be clarified a little.  Still.

Not all "early" style rear universals are the same.  FX and FJ rear unis are different from FE-EJ rear unis.  The differential pinion flange in the "early earlies" from 1948-1956 was not quite up to the task (and yes, I broke one on my '48 mid last year).  FE-EJ differentials have a larger, stronger differential pinion flange, and so the rear universal joint trunnions were redesigned to suit.  When I replaced my '48 series diff with an FE diff, I had to replace the rear universal joint.

Part of the reason for me having to change the rear universal joint rather than just the flanged trunnions was that Holden changed the shaft diameter of the universal joints from ~1/2" to ~9/16" (probably around 1963), and then the manufacturers of replacement universal joints followed suit on all theirs as well.  My '48 was running 1/2" shaft dia rear unis; I had a couple of NOS replacement FJ rear unis with 9/16" dia shaft, but I didn't have any new FE-EJ rear unis on hand to use with the FE diff in my '48.  So the '48 ended up with a hand-me-down rear uni I took off the FC when I changed over to a 3.36 diff in the FC.

If you can follow all that, you deserve a medal.

And just to confuse things further, 1956 FJ commercials have a Spicer-type rear universal joint, with a flanged adaptor that bolts onto the diff.  But this is mostly of interest to Humpy owners.

Question for the Holden historians: In the 1963 Bathurst race, the S4s were breaking universal joints at a great rate.  Would this have been because the race cars were fitted with the wrong, 1/2" shaft diameter universal joints instead of the stronger 9/16" shaft diameter joints?

Rob

[muzzie]

Looks like i've opened up a can of worms here!

[fcwrangler]

Rob, thanks for your input, I was going by the description and figment that Rares have listed. I am waiting for a mate that works for Repco to call me back with a model range for their universals.(he is back tomorrow). I will also take some photos and post them as well. I will also check through the bible and see what part numbers it lists.
Jim

[KFH]

It looks like another "Universal" project for Harv with all the variations that appear to be around.

Keith

[fcwrangler]

Not at all Muzzie, this is what it's all about, finding an answer so all are happy.
Rob, I have looked through the GMH parts book and come up with some interesting information. If I read it correctly then there is a crossover of universals throughout the early models.
I have heard back from my mate at Repco, with the following.
Front universals are listed in their book as ranging from FJ right through the straight six range to VK Commodore.
Rear universals are listed as fitting FE-EJ.

The GMH parts book lists the following part numbers.
Front Universals:   Standard.          Grease nipple.       Heavy Duty.
48-HR.                #7405065.        #7421879.            #7430649
48-FJ.                 **7423286.        **7423287.          **7430650
50-FC.                                          ##7084449.

# retainer groove in bearing
## retainer groove in flange
** differential housing 7425551 48-FJ upto engine number 136884
*** differential housing 7425556 48-FJ from engine number 136885

Rear Universals:    Standard.            Grease nipple.        Heavy Duty
48-FJ.                  #7405066.           #7421880
50-FC.                                                                        ##7084449
FC-EJ.                  #7425515.           #7421881
EH-HR.                   7423286.             7423287.                7430650
48-FJ.                 **7423286.          **7423287.            **7430650
48-FJ.               ***7425553
# retainer groove on bearing
## retainer groove on flange
** differential housing 7425551 48-FJ upto engine number 136884
*** differential housing 7425556 48-FJ from engine number 136885

The information from the GMH parts book may not help as the part numbers would not exist today. However it shows there is a difference in the rear universals all be it a bit vague as there is no definite relation to which universal fits which model. Going by the part numbers, it would suggest that the universals overlap models depending on what differential is fitted.
Jim

[ardiesse]

Jim,

It looks like your mate from Repco is right on the money.  I have a 1957 master parts catalog, and it says

Front universal joint kit (48, 50, FJ, FE) 7405065
Rear universal joint kit (48, 50, FJ excluding '56 commercials) 7405066
Rear universal joint kit (FE) 7406001

Complete driveshaft assemblies are -

48,50, FJ excluding '56 commercials 7402816
FJ '56 commercials only 7404783.

Curiously, there are two part numbers for FE driveshafts.

FE sedans 7408446 (normal universal joints)
FE wagons and commercials 7409772 (Spicer universal joints)

Part number 7084449 is listed as the universal joint bearing assembly for '56 FJ commercials and FE wagons and commercials.  This is the Spicer universal joint, with retainer groove in flange.

There are two part numbers for the driveshaft front yoke: 7400405 for 48,50,FJ excluding '56 commercials; and 7405716 for FJ '56 commercials and FE wagons and commercials.

And there is a listing for the rear flange in vehicles equipped with Spicer universal joints: 7405717 for '56 FJ commercials, and 7405882 for FE wagons and commercials.

As for the differentials, up to engine number 136884 the truly awful early diff with ball-bearing pinion bearings was used.  From engine number 136885 the later FJ diff with taper roller pinion bearings was used.  The axle shafts, bearings and rear axle housing were also upgraded significantly at engine number 136885.  But then the diff was upgraded further at FE introduction also.

Rob

[fcwrangler]

Rob, my source for the original part numbers is the 20 years of Holden Production 48-HR Parts Catalogue. It only lists the following numbers.
Shaft Assembly- Propeller with joints
48-FJ.          7400168
FE-EK(m).    7408445
EK (a).         7416924
EJ (m).        7408954
EJ (a).         7418545

The flange assemblies
48-FJ.   Up to eng.136884.      7400437
FJ.         From eng.136885.     7407393
FE-EJ                                    7419583
48-FJ.                               ++7424711
48-FJ.                             +++7422731
FE-EJ.                                **7421665

++ with differential           7425551.   48-FJ
+++ with differential.        7425556.   48-FJ
** with differential.           7421729.   FE-EJ

My thoughts about all this is that if you have anything other than the universals listed by either Rares or Repco then you are screwed unless you can find somebody that has a stash of nos stock.
Thank god I have the ones that are available (picked up new f&r today from Repco.
Jim

[ardiesse]

Jim,

By 1968, when the "20 years" catalogue came out, the range of parts available would have shrunk to the "mainstream" offerings (so no Spicer universals for example).  And it's even more the case today.  It's easy and cheap to get the front unis; possible and expensive to get the FE-EJ rear uni joints; and difficult and expensive to get the 48-FJ rear uni joints.

But I am intrigued by the part numbers for the replacement 48-FJ diff (7425551 and 7425556).  7425xxx part numbers look like they're late EJ or early EH.  Perhaps GM-H took the basic EJ diff and made it backward-compatible for FX and FJ with a redesigned pinion flange.

Thanks for digging out all the information.

Rob

[Dr_Terry]

Question for the Holden historians: In the 1963 Bathurst race, the S4s were breaking universal joints at a great rate.  Would this have been because the race cars were fitted with the wrong, 1/2" shaft diameter universal joints instead of the stronger 9/16" shaft diameter joints?

Rob

The tailshaft/uni joint problem that the S4s suffered in the '63 Bathurst was caused by the rear axle housing moving on the rear spring mounts.

The rubber saddles between housing & spring didn't 'stay put' under hard cornering, so the whole housing moved rearward & the slip yoke came out of the gearbox extension housing.

The fastest car that year was the Brian 'Yogi' Muir EH & this drama cost him the race.

I don't know of any uni joints that simply 'broke' as such.

To my knowledge only one wheel on one car suffered the much vaunted broken wheel syndrome that year.

Dr Terry