rockers noisy on start up

[Dave_EH]

Has anyone found YT roller rockers to be a little noisy on start up compared to standard pressed steel rocker arms?

[FC427]

Dave I run 1.6 -1 YT rockers and its noisy only because of the solid cam and the 18 thou lash , how long since you set the rockers or is yours a hydraulic cam ?........FC427........

[Dave_EH]

G'day FC427!

They are hydraulic lifters/cam.  I set them running hot, and I had one noisy one on start up.  I then set them cold using the sationary method of doing on cylinder at a time the correct way - 1/2 turn past zero lash, but still some noise persisted so went to one full turn past zero lash.

I still seem to have a short clatter on start up if the motor has sat overnight.

Trying not to get too far ahead of myself yet, but I'm wondering if I have excessive bearing clearance.

Dave

[FC427]

Dave How many miles on the motor??? and what is oil pressure like on start up ....FC427.....

[Dave_EH]

FC 427,

The bottom end I am running was in the car when I got it - it is a 179.  To the best of my knowledge the motor has done about 6 000 miles, but sat idle for about 5-8 years.  I'm trying to contact the old owner just to be certain.

I've done about 2 000 miles in it over the last couple of years.

When i put a guage in it, it read 30psi at idle and at revs.  I changed it to a High Volume pump it it reads about 42psi on initial start up, then about 35psi when hot and around 20psi at idle.  I would have thought the High volume pump would get to about 50psi?

I've used quite a few different oils, but am using top quality Penzoil 25w-50 GT racing oil at the moment which is meant to be the best available for flat tappet cams.  I have also replaced lifters with no change to the noise.


I'm currently trying to work out the problem, starting with the easiest/cheapest things and working onwards and upwards from there.  I have a new cam and triples for this motor, but don't want to do anything more until I sort this problem out.

I'm wondering about the pick up? Or some sludge somewhere?

Anything else you can think of?


Cheers
Dave

[FC427]

Hi Dave I have a 202 in my FC at the moment [just to keep me mobile till the super charged motor goes back in ] I changed the oil pump and lifters when I fitted it oil pressure is about the same as yours rattles when it starts in the morning till oil pressure comes up I am thinking it needs cam and bigend bearings. Have found worn cam bearings are related to low oil pressure even with a hi volume oil pump.....FC427.......

[pedro]

Get someone else to start the car(when it's cold) while you listen under the bonnet, if the noise is high up in the engine and tinny it'll be lifters/valve train, if it's deep knock and hollow sounding it's more likely to be bearings, not holding oil pressure is quite often a sign of bearing wear, if the engine sat around for a long time the bearings might have dried out and got a little chewed when you first started it.

[fe1957]

My experience if the cam bearings are poor the engine will growl a bit while running.
Maybe the lifters are leaking down a bit when sitting around, how are you setting your rockers hot? Maybe just pull them down another 1/4 of a turn and see if it helps
cheers
Grant

[Dave_EH]

Thanks all who have put forward advice.

I shall try and give as much info as possible to help you help me further.

I have just spoken to the previous owner who has confirmed the motor has only done around 7 or 8 thousand miles inclusive of what I have done.  He thinks it was a REPCO exchange, but it certainly doesnt have a stock cam in it so I'm not sure if REPCO would do exchange motors with a mild cam.

He is a little unsure of dates but the engine sat idle for at least 5 or 6 years with him starting it every now and then, but sometimes not for a year or two.

When I got it a put a new YT head on it.  I noticed that a couple of pushrods were slightly bent (I replaced them), and assumed a stuck valve had caused this to happen.

It has seemed to develop a rattle in the top end on start up that when cold is quite hollow and deep sound.  It takes 3 or 4 seconds to go away.

If its more than likely the cam bearings from being dried out and chewed up on start up, this isn't a big deal as I was looking to go to a bigger cam.

The oil pump was meant to be a HV pump, but given the readings I am getting (15-20psi at idle (900rpm) hot), (42psi on start up), (between 35-40 depening on revs hot when driving) I think I may have been sold a standard pump?  In any case, it should be enough oil pressure to keep the motor happy.

I wouldn't think the bottom end bearing would get damaged if the sump was fill the whole time during storage?

Any thoughts appreciated!

Regards
Dave

[Dave_EH]

Sorry Grant, I forgot to add I have fitted new lifters with no change.  The old ones also looked perfect with no scoring or concave bottom on them.

I've probably set the rockers at least six times just to make sure.  I always used to do it hot and running, but being hydraulic it shouldnt make a difference if they are done hot or cold, running or static as long as you do it correctly.

The more I think about it the more a worn cam makes sense.

[Spinner]

They usually are.  They open with something like 'Tutti Fruit' and progress to 'Fore ever My Darling'.

[smithy]

They usually are.  They open with something like 'Tutti Fruit' and progress to 'Fore ever My Darling'.

oooooh spinner's in fine form   

dont know which one is worse this or his steering arm response

[Dave_EH]

Thanks,

Still looking for help though 

Dave

[Dave_EH]

Pulled out the cam last night.

One of the lifters (they have done about 1000 miles max) is very difficult to pull out - very tight fit in bore.

I am thinking this may be causing my start up noise.  Can someone point me in the right direction as to what to do next?

Obviously once I pull the lifter out, I'll try  another one to determine if the lifter is the problem (which I don't think it is).

Are the lifter bores honed?

Can I try rubbing with some emery cloth?

Cheers
Dave

[tonyh]

Hi Dave,
The heaver the oil the longer it takes to fully get around the engine. The most wear happens in the first few seconds of startup. If the noise is only on start up could be that the oil viscosity is heavy and taking either too long to get to the lifters or get warm enough to lower the viscosity - particular if the engine is new or in good low clearance condition - You said you are running 25w50 - just for a check try running a 10w40 part synthetic and see if the noise stops. The only time there is a problem with the new types of oils is if you are running very high valve spring pressures which puts big loads on the cam lifter and lobe face. Check with the engine builder but I doubt if your engine would be set up this way. I have worked in the oil industry for over fifteen years and been involved in drag racing for over thirty and the only time I ran a 25w50 was in a supercharged, large clearance, methanol big block Chevrolet producing over 1100HP in a fairly mild form and with that engine I would warm it up on stands until the oil pressure stabilised before I ran it and did over 150 passes without any bearing or engine problems. To give you some idea of the effect oil viscosity has on engine performance, years age we changed a pro stock engine on the dyno from 10w40 full synthetic to a 0w30 full synthetic with no other changes and picked up 15HP. Don't get too worried about oil pressure - the old measure was 10 lbs plus 10 per 1000 rpm so from what you stated you are pretty close. What you need is a constant supply and with the correct good oil and you won't have any problems.
cheers tonyh 

[thee]

have you tried a genuine holden oil filter, aftermarket ones  let oil return to sump,as oil pump is higher than sump, poor one way check valve

[tonyh]

good idea thee, funny how time allows you to forget, some oil filters on my rebuilt 186 out to 190 in my EH 20years ago had the same drain back problem - genuine ones fixed it - I was running a 20w50 at the time and changed to 15w40 after talking to my engine builder and never had problems again.
tonyh

[Dave_EH]

Thank you very much for the replies.

Cam lobes and lifters checked out perfectly, so no problems at all there.

I shall try a lighter oil and genuine filter.

Appreciate the help and thoughts.

Regards
Dave

[EffCee]

Dave,

I have had this issue before and the Holden is not alone re Genuine filters. There are a lot of vehicles which use generic oil filters that I have had issues where the one way check valve is poor, and requires the oil filter to be filled before supplying the engine with oil pressure. For this reason alone I pay $27.50 per filter for my landcruiser because I have seen enough big end failures from having other non genuine filters fitted.

The second is the oiling system of the Holden red engine. Oil is picked up from the sump, then runs through the oil pump and then through the filter. This tends to wear oil pumps out prematurely as the oil pump is pumping unfiltered oil through the pump. There used to be a conversion (I did a conversion many years ago)where you could fit a Chrysler pump, (Hemi I think) which fed the oil through the filter from the pickup then into the pump and then the engine. IIRC there was also a stipulation that you had to use certain oil filters to ensure that oil didn't drain from the filter.

On race engines (speedway) I never used anything heavier than 10W40, but made sure I used a good quality oil, mostly Pennzoil.

[mikey]

The second is the oiling system of the Holden red engine. Oil is picked up from the sump, then runs through the oil pump and then through the filter. This tends to wear oil pumps out prematurely as the oil pump is pumping unfiltered oil through the pump. There used to be a conversion (I did a conversion many years ago)where you could fit a Chrysler pump, (Hemi I think) which fed the oil through the filter from the pickup then into the pump and then the engine. IIRC there was also a stipulation that you had to use certain oil filters to ensure that oil didn't drain from the filter.

That can also create it's own problems with starving the pump and causing cavitation when the filter becomes dirty and blocks up.
Not really sure what the right answer is when filters block up, either starve the pump and not get enough flow/pressure or having the filter bypass and again not getting enough flow/pressure.

Cheers  M