138 Grey motor crank thrust bearings and stuff..... before NATS ? Dreaming ??

[stapla]

Hi All,

Does anyone have any new crank bearings, crank thrust bearings and a maybe even a new crank ?  Motor could be a 138.  Engine number is B320XXX which I understand is FB/EK 138 ??

Mechanic checked motor yesterday and diagnosted too much crank float.  Strange, since the motor has only done little work.  They don't have time to remove engine so I had to do it myself.  Lucky for sick days

Today I pulled out the engine.  I supposed to be traveling from adelaide to wagga and then Nats - leaving next friday 26th.  Dropped engine off to engine builder this arvo.  Hopefully the engine builder will be able to sort issue quickly.   

Plan B is a reco motor from HM GEM, Southcots @ $3200 exchange.  Ouch.  At least they have stock (australia wide apparently as they did a batch recently)

History.

Since recently installing fresh motor I had a strange clutch noise when pedal was pressed. 

As usual I thought clutch thrust bearing or spigot bush - strange since thrust bearing was new. 

Dropped past a clutch specialist and they had a quick listen.  They thought it wasn't clutch thrust bearing.  This was because noise didn't start when slack was taken up and when thrust bearing touched pressure plate.  Noise started when clutch pedal was about 1/4 down, and then all the way to the floor.  They thought if its not clutch thrust, then it must be spigot.

A 2nd, more serious, noise started a couple days ago.  It was louder, sounded like it was coming from the dissy, internal oil pump area but I'm a bit deaf.  Sounded bit like a whurring of gears. 

This noise was there when it was idling, and revving - irrespective of gear position or clutch.  I swapped dissy as a remote chance but no luck - problem still there

Off to the mechanic who couldn't find much apart from the crank problem.  They think the clutch noise is related to crank problem.  Movement is around 1 to 2 mm.  Apparently should be just a few thou.  Too much more and crank hits the block.

The only thing I can think that might have caused too much crank end float is me fitting the flywheel inspection plate, while gearbox and motor were in car.  I needed to bang it in.  Not sure if it was around the wrong way. Which way do they go anyway ?  Bumps to the rear / outside ?

Apart from that I'm not sure what might cause the issue with a fresh motor.

At least the problem didn't happen half way across the hay plains !!

Hopefully better news tomorrow.

Cheers
Peter.

[EffCee]

Peter,

The fitment of the flywheel inspection plate would not have been the cause of the problem, I would suggest that not enough care was taken in the assembly of the engine when the bearings were fitted, if the engine hasn't done much work. the thrust bearings normally don't cause much of a problem, so long as there is sufiicient oil pressure.

Check the oil gallery on the crank, near the thrust bearing, to ensure that it is not blocked or partially blocked and that it hasn't been starving for oil.

HTH

Keith

[GOA350]

I would suggest pulling the motor out, turning it upside down, taking the sump off and checking all the bearings and end float and the fitment of the thrust plate at the timing gear end. It sounds as if you have forgotten to put the thrust plate back on when you or someone else put the engine back together.

[stapla]

Thanks for the tips guys.  GOA350, what does the thrust plate look like ?  Is it a bearing cap ?

I chased up Engine builder who says crank is stuffed as well as main bearings.  Crank has pushed forward and play is 40 thou.

I guess the 4 hours and 150kms the engine did was too much !!

Engine bloke is not sure if he can get the parts.

The only thing he can think has stuffed it is if crank was loaded up by the clutch.  Eg if there was no free play on clutch adjuster rod.  I know the clutch was adjusted ok with a few mm's of free play on the fork.

Shopping list currently is

Main bearings
B/E Conrod bearings
Crank that is able to be ground and matched to undersize bearings.

Cheers
Peter.

[ACE]

G'day Peter,
I've copied this from what you wrote on the FB-EK forum.

They ripped it apart, acid dipped it, new gasket kits, seals etc. They replaced cam bearings and also did valve seats. I paid them $1300 and they said internals were in new cond. The oil pump was brand new, cam and maybe crank new. They were surprised as many recond places don't go to those lengths these days.

From what you have said has been done to the motor recently by the mechanic i'd be having a look at the cam bearings and making sure all the oil gallery holes are lined up.
I doubt the clutch adjustment would have caused the problem.
ACE 

[stapla]

Thanks Ace,  I did a post over on the FB-EK forums as I needed as much help as possible.

Crank is stuffed.  Main Bearings stuffed.  Unable to get satisfactory response from engine builder apart from incorrectly preloaded clutch might have caused it. 

Local clutch experts think this is B/S to happen in 4 hrs of driving no mater what clutch adjustment.  I know the freeplay was ok on clutch cause I did it myself.

Engine builder wanted another $1000 for 2nd hand crank, machining and bearings.  No guarantee it wouldn't happen again.

I lost confidence in the engine itself and the builder.  I'm not confident that whatever caused the issue won't happen again at my expense.

I have decided to buy an off the shelf motor.  $3400 later I picked up the motor today.  I wanted a 132 FC motor but they only had a B prefix FB-EK 138.  On the positive side I think they are spec'd for a little more power.  Engine supplier said they modify the grey for red motor oil pump gears, red motor valves and a couple other upgrades.  They are having trouble getting grey motor parts and therefore are forced to modify them.
 
Also I purchased a new harmonic balancer, completely new clutch kit and spigot.  Flywheel is getting machined.

I have 6 days to paint motor, fit motor, test car and drive 1000 km's to Wagga, and then a few km's more to orange a few days later.

Fingers crossed.

[EffCee]

Peter,

I hope that all goes well with the new engine and that you are able to get it in and running in time to get it to Orange.

That being said, I can certainly understand why you would lose all confindence in the engine builder if he cannot guarantee that the thrust bearing wear would not re occur. I just don't get it. People wish to have trust in when engaging "professional tradesmen" . Persons like your engine builder, do nothing to portray a sense of profesionalism to the community.

I hope the so and so doesn't remain in business for too much longer, he obviously can't do the job to the standard that he should be doing it to.

Good luck with your new engine.

Keith

[FC427]

Peter You can make it happen  ...Can't believe the engine builder is blaming the clutch The first thing that most "Engine builders" do after dropping the crank in is to check crankshaft end float and write it down with all the other measurements , sounds like a real dud........FC427.....

[brads59]

Peter i feel for ya mate.
I hope all turns out for the best so you can get to Orange ok.
Ive seen this car first hand and it would be a shame not to show everyone the hard work and attention to detail that has gone in to it.
Maybe you can name the engine builder so as none of us have the same problem in the future.
Good luck mate!!

[Maco]

Hi Peter,

I had a similar problem with my grey motor, the engine builder so called re conditioner had mixed up the main bearing caps, this does amount to only half the crankshaft thrust face working, so my end result was 0.060" to 0.080" end float on the crankshaft, I don't believe the clutch preload would cause this.!!

My two cents worth.

Hope to see you in Orange.

John

[GOA350]

This is the exact reason i build my own engines now.
 It is not rocket science. Building engines is not hard, all you have to do is read your FE FC manual and use common sense and ask people questions. I am self taught, and if you have ever done something for the first time you would realise that you go overboard double checking and triple checking to make sure you have done it right. I must admit, i was lucky to have very, very good people to ask advice. And when you have the first fire up, your heart is in your mouth, but once you overcome this, your chest comes right out and you are very proud of yourself. I remember taking my 350 chev for its first run down the 1/4, i was shitting myself thinking that something was going to go wrong. Then after a few runs, i was just like, how much can i squeeze out of this sucker, and from then on i have respected my engines but also used them for what they were built for, (to be revved). I have already given my latest Grey Motor a good working out and it is GROUSE.
 So my suggetion is for next time, that maybe have a go at it yourself and if you need any help, i would be more than happy to give you a hand in whatever way i can.
 Cheer Scotty

[FB_MAD]

This is the exact reason i build my own engines now.
 It is not rocket science. Building engines is not hard, all you have to do is read your FE FC manual and use common sense and ask people questions. I am self taught, and if you have ever done something for the first time you would realise that you go overboard double checking and triple checking to make sure you have done it right. I must admit, i was lucky to have very, very good people to ask advice. And when you have the first fire up, your heart is in your mouth, but once you overcome this, your chest comes right out and you are very proud of yourself. I remember taking my 350 chev for its first run down the 1/4, i was shitting myself thinking that something was going to go wrong. Then after a few runs, i was just like, how much can i squeeze out of this sucker, and from then on i have respected my engines but also used them for what they were built for, (to be revved). I have already given my latest Grey Motor a good working out and it is GROUSE.
 So my suggetion is for next time, that maybe have a go at it yourself and if you need any help, i would be more than happy to give you a hand in whatever way i can.
 Cheer Scotty

     That is pretty much spot on Scotty, engines are relatively easy to do.All you need is a basic understanding on how an engine works, some common sense and a workshop manual to help you along and of course a good bunch of blokes on a forum   for those questions that are a bit sticky   .People would be surprised at what they can acheive themselves. And just like you said, triplicate checking and taking your time is very important.I've built heaps of all sorts of engines for myself as well as for customers when I was on the spanners and rushing the job and not measuring and checking things invites mistakes as  appears to be the case with Peter's grey and the previous builder.

[stapla]

Hi All,

Thanks all for your support and comments.  Its easy to get down when you have to fix things twice. 

The new motor is painted and I hope to install it tonight.

Other problems to keep be busy are gearbox leaking and diff pinion leak.  Gearbox is getting sorted today, and hopefully diff later this week.

Cheers
Peter.

[EffCee]

I just thought that I would mention that not only do you have to check everything you have done, but check OTHERS work as well, for example, the amount of times that I have pulled down an engine that failed because some clown didn't ensure the oil hole gallery was lined up when cam bearings were fitted, same with little end bushes, or crankshafts that have not had the oil galleries cleaned out after they have been ground, rings that have the end gaps line up neatly, the list goes on, ensure everything is scrupulously clean, double check all your own work, and triple check theirs.

When assembling ensure that everything is liberally soaked in the correct lubrication, oil pumps greased, cams have been assembled with lifter lube, rings have been smothered in oil prior to fitment, you get the idea, the first few seconds of startup is critical on a new engine, wind it over without spark plugs in, or use a drill to ensure that you get oil pressure before starting the motor.


If you follow this simple advice and the advice that others have mentioned above, you really can't fail.

Keith

[FC427]

And if you don't have or can't read micrometers  use plasty gauge .......FC427......