d) Any installed seatbelts (even the peace of mind ones) that are not subject to full engineering must be approved by an RTA Authorised Restraint Fitting Station. This is not an engineers certificate, just an inspection and basic form to sign off and fairly cheap (>$100). Most fitting Stations will not let you do the work yourself (to a decent standard) and then inspect and certify it - most will only certify if they do the work themselves (in the end it's their signature on the line). It pays to check with the one you have in mind before you fire up the drill and spanners to DIY. My FB sedan was "certified" this way and has the simple piece of paper to keep in the glovebox. This process was cheap (a hundred dollars or so compared to a few thousand for full engineering). e) Some Fitting Stations require full compliance to ADR5 (http://www.comlaw.gov.au/Details/F2009C ... 5628295870) when you install - there are some tricky bits in ADR/5 about how far apart the belts can be. Again, check with the Fitting Station you have in mind before flashing up the tools. I did an ADR/5 compliant system for my EK wagon. I took a full set of photos and measurements, and have turned it into a draft Guide. If you want a draft copy, let me know an email address.
Hi Harv,
Thanks for taking the time to provide that - I had already stalked you across at the FB/EK forum and found your post. I was expecting what you quoted above as the answer from the inspection station I rang - I suspect based on Robs feedback that this only applies if the ute was already registered on standard/historic plates. I would love a copy of your guide if you don't mind it will be a great resource for down the track. I will send my email address by DM.
Had a bit of time to spare this afternoon so off into the shed to tinker.. While I wait for the water pump to arrive I thought I would take a peek inside the FB motor to see what is preventing it from turning over. Dropped what little oil there was and found it to be a little milky - not a great sign. Ripped out the dizzy - she is frozen so will need to do some work there to free it up. Pulled off the rocker cover and side plate - every thing looked OK. Removed the manifolds and found the inlet to No 1 was rusty so at some stage water has entered through the manifold. Didn't appear to be too bad and should clean up fine. Next came the rocker gear - apart from two odd sized bolt heads; the rocker gear came off easily. The push rods all look to be straight and although the oil in a couple of the cam followers seemed to be a bit watery they had no mushrooming and look to be in quite reasonable shape. Cracked the head and pulled it off. Not what I wanted to see, but what I expected to see. If it was a runner before it was laid up in the shed and the bores were open to the atmosphere the inevitable rust followed.
Surprisingly, after finding the rust in the inlet to No 1 there was little rust there - but 2, 5 and 6 are quite rusty - unfortunatley a bit beyond surface rust. I doubt that a hone will suffice in getting them back up to speed. The piston tops look fine so I have let them soak in a bit of diesel overnight. I will turn her over tomorrow and see what is hiding under the pan. I trust that the bearings and crank are OK if so this one may be an easy salvage.
If I have it right - the only difference, besides some casting changes, between the FC and FB/EK is the piston size, a change in compression and an increase in oil pressure at idle. I assume the oil pressure was simply a change in the spring. How was the compression increased - head shaved?
So a couple of questions for the wise ones on grey motors in general:
Can the FC block be successfully bored to 138 or was the casting changed to provide more meat to play with? Is there a discernable difference between the FC and FB/EK head?
Will update you with my bottom end findings tomorrow.
You fall into the same category as me. Because the car's unregistered and has no seat belts, you have to get the seat belt installation approved by an engineer. The rest of the vehicle does not need to be brought up to modern standards. The fitting station is right about the cost, though. I expect to be a few thousand lighter off by the time the approval is issued.
Except if you are increasing the engine output by more than 10%. Then the fun starts.
Register the ute first, then fit the seat belts. Confirm with the fitting station that installing seat belts in an already-registered vehicle does not require engineering approval. But then there is insurance to deal with. Retrofitted seat belt installations are supposed to be engineer-inspected as a condition of insurance. And I hear the same is true for historic registration. This is the letter of the law. It is more honoured in the breach than the observance, though. Which is usually OK, except when something goes wrong.
Your HR front suspension would require a brake check to be performed, by an engineer.
Rob
Thanks Rob,
This make a lot more sense than the way it was described by the fittign station. Their advice was pretty clear in stating that fitting the seat belts was not worth the cost. Probably not the safety message that they should be puting out.
I will take you advice re fitting seat belts post registration. Maybe I can convice Mrs J that we don't need them; it is a pretty big maybe though! If I can get that one over the line it is one less hurdle/cost to endure.
A bit of the old greatcoats on greatcoats off - definately leaning towards standard registration in the first instance.
I have read through all of the info here in relation to seat belts. Given my good wife was involved in a accident in my old FC that left passengers hospitalised as a result of no seatbelts I thought I would do the right thing and get them fitted. I called my local authorised restraint fitting station in Goulburn and they advised me that if I was to fit seat belts I would have to get the vehicle engineered and bought up to modern standards. In fact they went so far as to advise against fitting seat belts because the engineering requirements made it prohibitive cost wise. This sounds like a pile of horse poo to me but thought I would check to see if something new has come in.
As a follow up - how far can I go before installing seat belts goes from optional to mandatory?
At this rate it makes sense to register it as a daily driver with no seat belts and standard drums and then take it back 12 months later with seat belts fitted and a HR front end - the local inspection station would be none the wiser and magically it is a roadworthy vehicle! Makes a mockery of the "system".
Craig ..Check with the supplier if the hose has a mesh fabric inner , moulded hose with mesh inner is superior to extruded rubber NO mesh , original had anti suction spring , dont know if that applies or even available any more ..Vern
Thanks Vern, I will check for that before I place an order.
CH313 is the top hose, but I can only remember the number for an FJ bottom hose, which doesn't help. The last bottom hose I bought for the FC said it was the same as for a TX Gemini (best to check). Repco can get the hoses, but you need to tell them the part number because their databases don't go back that far. Otherwise, Rare Spares.
Water pumps are a different matter. You used to be able to get repair kits from places like Auto Surplus in Melbourne. I have wondered about buying a red motor pump and raiding it for the bearing and seal.
Use caution with aftermarket grey motor water pumps. In some cases, the bolt holes don't line up, and need enlarging. The shaft sticks out too far at the front - cut it off flush with the hub. And the hub subtly distorts the pulley. If you have a Dremel, you need to grind four shallow slots into the hub to clear the pressed ribs in the pulley. Or if you have a press and an original Holden water pump, swap the hubs over.
Rob
Thanks for the heads up Rob,
I have three original water pumps that have good impellors etc - so if I can find repair kits I am good to go. I have searched previously with no luck but will have another crack.
Really appreciate the advice on fitting up the after market pumps - that is invaluable information that I will note in the workshop manual for future reference!
Craig ,,I meant to say also ..AS it seems the thing that concerns you is the compression and fuming of oil and etc ..and whats going on in the engine that you cant see.. MY thinking is ,back in the day if the old heavy sludgie oils can get to where it did , where will modern day oils get ,so getting information and talking to JP pistons in SA.. the choise of rings became very important , that led to control of oil being as important as even compression..Vern ..
Thanks Vern,
Appreciate the advice and the heads up on the oil rings. I have used JP on previous builds I have done so I expect I will go back to them if I need pistons/rins etc.
The motor runs really well now that the timing has been adjusted. I am concerned that the compression is still 30-35 psi below spec (from the manual). The fuming isn't a huge concern at the moment as it could well be grubby oil transfer from hands/spills etc starting to burn off. Having said that I have only run the motor a couple of times in 30 -40 second bursts. Certainly the oil pump is working well, the head seems to be in good shape and the rockers are set nicely, the bottom end sounds as though it is in good shape and the the carby operates as it should (although needs a good clean). Electrically the distributor, coil and starter motor are fine.
Once I get hold of a working water pump I'll set it up, along with the generator and regulator, to do a decent run and see what occurs. Along with the observations and post run tests, I can read the plugs, check the electrcial system's major components and have a much better feel for what to focus on when I strip her down.
Engine and box went into the Crewman project yesterday so I will have some space available to on work both motors; the running L series and the non running B. I also now have some room on the hoist to throw the FC roller on to assess the suspension, steering etc and get stuck into the checking/fixing the wiring.
Small steps - but same as eating an elephant - just one bite at a time!
Craig ..A even increase in compression is a good sign ...after you have done your tweeks and had it running for a good time and at temperature no doubt you will check compression again , for piece of mind you can , when she is hot and running , put a piece of cloth in road draft tube and block it off and remove the oil filler cap , and prevent wind from fan ,if there is excessive " blow by " it will pump fumes out the oil filler cap opening ..have a peek in and check oil on rocker shaft ..Vern ..
I did a recheck and adjust fo the timing and it is now an easy start and no problems with backfire; compression is still low and the rockers all rock. Oil is definitely getting to where it should be at the top end. I am seeing some "oil" smoke emenating from the oil filler cap and when I had it running with the rocker cover off. Can't be sure its blowby or if it is simply old oil burning off - can't give it a long enough run until I replace the water pump. I'll also refresh the fuel pump while I am at it and see if I can't have all of the support systems working at least.
Son 2 is putting the LS1 into the Crewman project tomorrow so I should get a bit of shed space back. I'll pull down the FB motor and check it over while I wait for part for this one.
I set up the FC donk in the engine test stand, connected up all the hoses, filled the radiator and the water pump is leaking so I need to get another one before I can do any more testing. There are plenty of options on eBay and my sorces tell me that can still be purchased from Repco/SuperCrap. However, not sure what is cheinesium rubbish and what are quality parts - same for the hoses.
The threads related to this on the forum are not quite as old as the FC in the shed - but starting to get up there.
If you could impart some wisdom as to the best souce for water pumps and radiator hoses it would be greatly appreiated.
I have been looking on FB Marketplace and eBay for you as I continue to track down parts for my ute. Plenty of FB/EK types but not the one you are after. If I find something I'll let you know. Cheers n Beers Jolls
Very impressed with your technical ability in getting a video happening Craig. Never mind getting the engine running. Sounds solid anyway mate. 👍
Hi Clay, I can't take much credit for the vid; son 3 took it. It was a funny afternoon as son 2 (a mechanic) sat in bewilderment at how the distributor and timing was set from the flywheel. I tried to upload it using the You Tube icon but it failed miserably. Pretty easy to do - create a You Tube presence, take a video on your phone and upload it to your computer and from the computer to YouTube. I can talk you through it if you are keen. Cheers n Beers Craig
Lean fuel mixture - possibly partially blocked jets, maybe a vacuum leak. Ignition timing retarded. But I don't see any blowby coming out the breather pipe, so I'd take a lot of convincing about piston rings stuck in the grooves. Rob
Hi Rob, 100% on the retarded timing and the carby definitely needs an good clean and service. We were discussing the lack of pressure in the crank case and thought valves - but not likely that it would be consistent across all 6 pots if the valves were a problem. Given the increase in compression of around 15% across all of the cylinders I can't explain it any other way. If it was valves I would expect a variation in readings and the compression to remain steady at around 75 psi. The compression tester could be reading low; but is it a near new SP tools kit - not a $5 job made of chinesium so I doubt it lies there - but something we have to check.
Next step is to give the carby a clean and get is st up with some linkages, grab a fan belt, hook up the radiator, adjust the timing a little and get it running for a decent duration. 35 seconds isn't enough. The one thing I did notice is that is dounded pretty quiet, less the exhaust noise out of the open manifold.
So it was raining again today so toddled off into the shed after lunch. Decided that with such consistently low readings across all 6 cylinders the rings are the problem - could be gone, could simply be stuck after 15 - 20 years sitting idle. Either way it looks like I will need to pull the old girl apart and see what is revealed. However, as a bit of a "Hail Mary" play I decided to see if I could get her up and running. I mean why build a test stand and then not use it. Plumbed up a gravity fed ful system off the hoist with a bit of hose and a funnel into an old fuel line, connected up the coil with an on off switch. checked the timing was about right, hooked up the jumper leads and gave it a burl.
You can check the video out here:
Suffice to stay the timing is a little out but she ran OK. After we warmed her up a bit we pulled the pugs to check the compression readings - up to between 80 and 90 psi so a definite improvement but still well below what I want out of her. So I expect that our initial assessmant of the rings being stuck in the grooves was close to the mark. We will see what the rest of the story is when we strip her down I expect.
Go through the firing order with each cylinder at TDC of the compression stroke. Squirt a little WD-40 or kerosene on top of the valve heads via the intake and exhaust ports, then pressurise the combustion chamber (you'll need to stop the motor from turning).
Listen. A deep wheezing sound down in the engine's guts means leaking piston rings. Bubbling sounds indicate leaking valves.
If the compressions you obtained are evenly low, check the calibration of your compression gauge.
So did the test above - the valves seal fine the problem lies in the rings. I expect that they are stuck in the grooves. Once I get some time I will behead it and remove the innards to see what tale they tell.
I have had a good look at the engine I picked up from the farm - she was a leaky old thing before they put her into the shed. Engine number is B27861 so an FB 138 engine and if the info I have gained off the net is correct it would be a 1960 build. I will strip it down as well and make a decision on how to progress.
I heard from Brett out at Bungendore, nice engine he has built there and at a good price. I am contemplating the option but will wait to see what I find before I commit either way.
Don't be in too much of a hurry to behead the grey. If you have a compressor and a 14 mm spark plug adaptor, you can troubleshoot low compression easily -
Take the manifolds off.
Go through the firing order with each cylinder at TDC of the compression stroke. Squirt a little WD-40 or kerosene on top of the valve heads via the intake and exhaust ports, then pressurise the combustion chamber (you'll need to stop the motor from turning).
Listen. A deep wheezing sound down in the engine's guts means leaking piston rings. Bubbling sounds indicate leaking valves.
If the compressions you obtained are evenly low, check the calibration of your compression gauge.
Oh, and if you have a vacuum gauge, you can check for head gasket leaks. Here, it's best to loosen off the rocker pedestal bolts and nuts completely, so all the valves are closed. Pressurise (say) no. 2, and connect the vacuum gauge to no. 3's spark plug hole. Any positive pressure at all in no. 3 means a head gasket leak between the two cylinders.
Repeat the test with cylinders 4 and 5. These two pairs of cylinders in grey motors tend to have poor head gasket sealing.
Rob
P.S. - there's a bloke in Bungendore who has a freshly built grey motor on a stand, with all accessories, twin Strombergs and tubular headers. Would you be interested?
Thanks Rob,
I will do those checks before I behead the beast so I know what work will be required. I have always planned on gettign some work doen on the head. I expect you are aware of Chris Finn. He is advertising on Marketplace to crack tested and hot tank the head, install 202 valves withhardened seats and 308 V8 springs for $880. Bottom end will depend on what I find I guess - but plans for a mild cam, lightened flywhee and hone at best case. If the bloke in Bungendore has something ready to go at the right price I'm definitely interested. I can then work on this motor in slow time. Cheers Craig
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