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1  Technical Board / Restoration Help / Re: NEW Wiring Diagram on: February 29, 2024, 12:02:04 AM
Just want to say thanks for putting the effort into this. What a great resource!
2  Galleries / Project Cars - FEs and FCs Under Construction / Re: Jolls FC Ute Project on: February 18, 2024, 10:02:16 PM
Hi Rob

Thanks for the update I'll pull it down and develop a plan to tackle it from there.

Cheers
Craig
3  Galleries / Project Cars - FEs and FCs Under Construction / Re: Jolls FC Ute Project on: February 17, 2024, 08:11:06 AM
Hi Team

I have been working hard on the hose reno, just got the new trusses up and resheeted; still got a tarp over one end as I don't have the ridge cap finished. Still a long way to go - so not much preogress on the ute. We did get the Crewman project finished and off the hoist - big job converting a pov pack V6 to an SS including aircon etc but running and ready for rego once we get a new windscreen fitted.

So the ute went upon the hoist for its first real good inspection. A bit of surface rust around the floor repairs; whcih had been done pretty well by the previous owner. From the undersdie I did spot a coupl of pinholes in the front floor; but where it has already been repaired so I expect missed welds but I will have a better look soon. Around the fuel tank does need some work - I haven't asessed it in detail to see if I can patch up the holes or if I will need to cut the two sections out and fabricate something to fix it. Certainly not major rust so pretty happy.

The front end - not so good. Both king pins have play - drivers side worse than passengers. I have a HR front end but I will save that until after I get it re-registered on standard plates. I will need to strip it down to determine what is worn and how badly before making a decision on how to resolve that one.

I trust that the pins themselves are OK and I am looking at new bushes. I note that there was a specific reaming tool for the FC - can only find EH ones on the interweb at the moment. Does anyone have an excess reaming tool that they would be willing topart with; or alternatviely have purchased a suitable modern reamer with guide that they have found works. If so i would love to know the brand/kit to save a heap of research.

Will post some photos soon - off to our local Toyaot dealer to have a chat about a 79 series V8 cruiser in preparation for our big lap!

Cheers n Beers
Jolls

4  Technical Board / General Technical / Re: How to dismantle internal sun visors? on: February 08, 2024, 05:29:12 AM
It also looks like the rods need to be ground down so that the chromed mounts can be removed and then the rods re-peened over to reinstall.

That is my understanding of how the mounts are removed. I have it on my list to do.

Cheers
Jolls
5  For Sale and Wanted / Reproduction Parts / Re: Nominations for improved cooling head gaskets - fourth round on: February 07, 2024, 03:58:56 PM
Hi Harv,

Gaskets arrived in Murrumbateman today in pristine condition. Thank you for your time, effot and patience.

Cheers n Beers
Craig
6  Technical Board / Restoration Help / Re: FC Ute Jack on: February 04, 2024, 03:25:48 AM
Jolls ..My floor jack is a APAC 240 ..Ive had it for 50 years , put seals in 3 times ..use it all the time .It was orange in colour originally when new..Vern ..

I read in some of their advertising that their jacks were built to last a lifeltime! Not like the stuff built now. Having said that I'll have to check the orange trolley jack I have in the shed. I recall it in the garage as a kid and inherited it when my Dad passed. Still going strong.
7  Technical Board / Restoration Help / Re: FC Ute Jack on: February 02, 2024, 04:38:05 AM
Well, the fullness of time didn't take long; about 15 minutes in fact.

Mine is an APAC No 17, which apears to have come in both orange and grey and in two styles. The type I have has an enclosed cage hook on the base for moving the jack about.  The model with no cage hook has the access hole rotated 15 degrees to the winding hole. In operation, this would have the effect of capturing the square nut at the end of the winder once the winder is withdrawn enabling withdrawral of the jack from beneath the car by pulling on the handle. 

According to the Clyde-APAC company history https://clydeapac.com.au/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/pdf/Company-Information-Clyde.pdf APAC made jacks for Holden for over 60 years. It also appears from a newspapaer article dated 16 December 1948 (found in the APAC history) that they provided the jacks for the FX. It is highly likely that the jacks without cage hooks are APAC No 17s as APAC were based in SA. In addition to their own jacks they made Lightburn hydraulic jacks both here and in South Africa. In 1954 APAC industries was acquired by Clyde Engineering in NSW and became Clyde APAC. From other articles I found at Ozwrenches https://www.ozwrenches.com/jacks.htm#aussie APAC and Clyde APAC also supplied aftermarket jacks to NASCO. 

Wylie were also based in SA and the Ozwrenches site has linked them as a supplier to Holden as well. On this site they show Wylie scissor jacks; the winding type for FE/FC and the ratcheting type for FB/EK.

This clearly shows the Holden had at least two jack suppliers. It is likely that APAC supplied the early bottle jacks and Wylie provided scissors. Given the APAC No 17 came in two styles I expect that the cage hook would be cheaper to manufacture than the capture mechanism inside the winder gear itself so I'm speculating that the jacks with the cage hook were the later version. I also expect that at some point it was found to be more economical to produce the bottle jack with a turned up tang style cage hook as opposed to the enclosed style on the jack I have. So my best guess is - FX/FJ capture mechanism in the winder, FJ/FE/FC enclosed cage hook, FC/EJ/EH tang style cage hook and then sometime down the track they went to a three stage bottle jack. Purely speculation - maybe the enclosed cage was for some other purpose/vehicle.

I'm not sure what records APAC have from back then but I'll write to them and see if I can't find out some more.

A deep dive into Holden jacks - I never would have thought it.







8  Technical Board / Restoration Help / Re: FC Ute Jack on: February 02, 2024, 03:11:33 AM
I've cleaned & repainted these over the years, some came with the cars & some from swap meets

I had always assumed that the type with the bracket were later but could be wrong


Thanks for the advice. The jack I have acquired has remnants of orange, no grey to be seen, and the bracket is different from the two in image you posted. It will get coat of orange paint and a tart up; but I will try to positively identify it in the fullness of time.
9  Technical Board / Restoration Help / Re: FC Ute Jack on: January 30, 2024, 05:09:08 PM
May be corrected here but the orange jack as shown above is fx- fj as it has no bracket for lining up.  AL.

Hi Al,

Thanks, if that is the case I lucked in then because the one I picked up has the bracket. I didn't even think to look at that detail.



Haven't got to doing the restoration yet fortunatley. Can anyone provide a definitve answer on the colour (grey or orange) and the lining up bracket none or one?

Restoring it is on the list of things to do; but a fair way down the priority list.   
10  Galleries / Project Cars - FEs and FCs Under Construction / Re: Found Object on: January 28, 2024, 08:21:24 PM
Thanks Rob,

As you thought the mounts in the ute can be accessed from under the tray floor. I assume the same for the wagon. I'll definitey check mine a bit more closely; they appear OK but I don't want to go to all the effort of restoring her only to have her fail after the first big bump.

I'm interested in the springs as a spare if they are surplus.

Cheers
Craig
11  Galleries / Project Cars - FEs and FCs Under Construction / Re: Found Object on: January 28, 2024, 07:47:41 PM
Please excuse my ignorance; but does the shock mount problem extend to the utes/wagons?

Cheers
Jolls
12  Galleries / Project Cars - FEs and FCs Under Construction / Re: Jolls FC Ute Project on: January 25, 2024, 02:30:38 PM
Thanks for the tips Vern,

I have everything laid out in order so everything can go back into its original spot if it us re-used. My gut feel is the crank will measure up OK and will just need the bigend journals linished. If we do need to do undersize the crank at any point I will undersize the lot and start from "new".

I'm taking my measurements as initial guidance - the bore wear has me preparing to go oversize so new pistons and will definitely get them to balance before I put it back together. I have been looking at pistons and the range in prices is extraodrinary - $300 on eBay to $1050 for JP from Auto Surplus (Auto Surplus have them cheaper on eBay too). My eperience with JP has been good; however, a $700 saving is something to look at. I have no ideas as to the quality of the eBay slugs.

I'd be interested to hear about the experience of others while I continue to investigate. $700 may be having a lend because it is "old" or the right sum for good quality. I trust there is some wisdom in the forum to help me out. I'd rather learn from wisdom than learn from my mistakes.
13  Galleries / Project Cars - FEs and FCs Under Construction / Re: Jolls FC Ute Project on: January 24, 2024, 05:51:01 PM
Piston diameter measured at the crown is less than across the skirts.  It's best to measure across the skirts, at right angles to the piston pin axis.

I took both - the skirt measurement was 3.055 (still under what it should be - but again verniers are an inaccurate way of measuring. I'm sure I could re-ring it and get some more time out of her but I don't want to have to do it again so will take it in and get it cleaned up and measured up then take it from there. Best case is we hone and linish, new rings and bearigns and crack on. Worst case is about $3K in machining - I'm thinking that we will be somewhere in between!
14  Galleries / Project Cars - FEs and FCs Under Construction / Re: Jolls FC Ute Project on: January 24, 2024, 03:01:21 PM
So had another crack at the B motor after lunch.

The woodruff key took a bit of tapping on the nose to come out but she did. The leading edge is a bit manky now, I could file it but cheap enough to get another and keep this one as a "Justin".
Once that was off dismantling was no problems.
Main bearing journals are good - haven't measured them as I only have a set of digital verniers. Potentially just a linish and new bearing caps required.

Once the cam was out I spashed a bit of rust converter about 5, 6 and 2 and after washing it down gave it a hone. Surprisingly I was able to get 90% of the rust removed, still a bit under the lip of 5 and 6 but I was worried about honing it too much just in case it was salvagable inits current state.

So out with the feeler gauges to measure the compression ring gap top and bottom of the cylinder. Based on Rob's >0.005 in methodolgy in relation to wear, five of the six cylinders fail (only just) - but still a fail.

Top         Bottom         Delta   Delta/3                                                            Acceptable
Gauge 1   Gauge 2      Total       Gauge 1    Gauge 2    Total      Delta    Delta/3             ?   
0.032        0.014        0.046         0.032         0.014     0.046        0           0               Pass
0.032        0.016        0.048         0.032          0        0.032        0.016   0.0053         Fail
0.032        0.016        0.048         0.032          0        0.032        0.016   0.0053         Fail
0.032        0.016        0.048         0.032         0        0.032        0.016   0.0053         Fail
0.032        0.014        0.046         0.03          0            0.03        0.016   0.0053         Fail
0.032        0.016        0.048         0.032          0            0.032        0.016   0.0053          Fail
More telling is the ring gap is double plus the maximum allowable in the manual. So I guess we know why it was pulled out; she would have been pretty low on compression I expect and probably chewing a bit of oil (which probably explains the crud on the piston crowns)

The piston has no markings on the exterior. Holden is cast vertically on one interior wall and 13 on the other side. It measures up, using verniers, so not very accruate, at 3.04in (.02 in) under standard so I expect that they are the original slugs. They don't appear to have been rattling around in the bore so I need to take some more measurements to see if it is simply a case of worn rings. However, given the bore wear is at the limit I think it would be prudent go oversize. If the cam measures up OK I may get out of it lightly.

Next step is to book her into the machine shop for an assessment and we will go from there.
15  Galleries / Project Cars - FEs and FCs Under Construction / Re: Jolls FC Ute Project on: January 24, 2024, 11:25:20 AM
Rob,

Got it -thanks for the clarification.
16  Galleries / Project Cars - FEs and FCs Under Construction / Re: Jolls FC Ute Project on: January 24, 2024, 09:15:28 AM
Craig ..I'll chime in here ,,if you are basically happy with the engine and say to yourself i'll do this one ..What i would do ..take it to engine machine shop and put it in the pickle bath .. a few bucks , but cheap insurance premium ...then check it all over , crack test , then let the micrometer do the story telling ...and correct use of micrometer , by that I mean , example , when measuring the big end crank journals ,measure each journal in several places along and around it , looking for taper and ovality ,back in the day some engines had one journal only ground undersize .there is lots of things to cover when preparing an engine build..best get the machine shop to measure everything for you ..Vern ..

Thanks Vern,

Great advice. I have been in contact with two local engine builders and their advice was similar and reasonable value if all they are doing the machine work only. I'll do some more research on oversized pistons but they are a simple purchase. You are 100% correct I need to get the motor into a bath and tested to see if it is even worth progressing. Unless bad things have been heard about Masterstroke Engineering I'll send the head to them and the cam to Clive's Cams. As the B motor isn't a runner and really needs a refresh I'm leaning towards sending it off to be done first. I'm sort of hoping that the L motor will only need a hone and rings to be back up to speed - everything else about that one looks great compared to the B motor.

I have confirmed that both heads are later model two hole heads. The one on L series is M5 2 and the B series B150. If I have it right:
  • The L motor head was cast on 5 Dec 62 (52 would be one hole), so out of an EJ
  • The B motor head was cast on 15 Feb 60, so probably out of an FB


Cheers Craig

17  Galleries / Project Cars - FEs and FCs Under Construction / Re: Jolls FC Ute Project on: January 23, 2024, 11:14:55 PM
Rob,

I have plans for warming up the ute as well. So it would be great to hear your plans. At this stage I have sourced a set of triple 1 1/4" SUs and headers. I have sussed out the head work I plan to get done. The provider is Masterstroke Engineering in Sunbury Vic. I was going to ask as I got closer about their reputation and work but seeing as we are here what is known about them? They are offering to crack test, hot tank and blast the head then surface, re-thoat to suit 202 valves (inlet & exhaust), machine port, fit hardened exhaust seats, fit 308 V8 springs & modified retainers (80lbs seat pressure) and supply and install new valve guides, intake & exhaust valves.

I've heard good things about Clive's Cams to regrind the cam to add a bit of spirit but remain good as a daily driver. I expect I will need to have the cam followers refaced and lapped at the same time I get the grind done.  I'm not sure about pistons, I don't have a fel for what is available and have not done much research to date so I'm really open to advice on that one. A lightened flywheel and balance and I think I will be done.



18  Galleries / Project Cars - FEs and FCs Under Construction / Re: Jolls FC Ute Project on: January 23, 2024, 08:00:17 PM
Hi Rob,

Thanks for the brain dump. I'm brave, and have nothing to lose, so I will give the phosphoric acid a crack. I am not that confident in 5/6 coming good as i can feel the pitting. Worth a try; what is there to lose?

I'll check tomorrow and report back.

The brass drift approach was attempt 2 at getting the woodruff key out. I have a 1 1/2x 1 1/2 x 10 in brass bar I nabbed from the old man's tools before my brother got hold of it. She is tight and didn't want to move. Heat was attempt 3, although I didn't try the drift a second time. I'll let it think it has won tonight and have another crack tomorrow. I will defeat it!

Camshaft bolts are already out - no issues there. Just can't pull the cam out because of the oil slinger

Head gasket was doing its job for sure. I have two of Harvs improved gaskets on the way so I can get both motors back to runners keeping one as a spare. I just need to prioritise the effort due on a time basis - looking forward to retirement so time is no longer a restriction.

Motor is definitely stamped as a B block - B27861 so if they are early bearing caps there has been something sinister in there before. I could tell by the assortment of unmatched/overlenght/underlength fasteners that someone with little attention to detail, or working in a paddock, has had a play.

I assume when you are talking about tapped holes in the head that you are referring to the holes into the water jacket for the heater/temp gauge. I have two holes in both heads - the FC and FB. If you are referring to a different tapped hole I am all ears.
19  Galleries / Project Cars - FEs and FCs Under Construction / Re: Jolls FC Ute Project on: January 23, 2024, 05:54:49 PM
So I soaked the pistons in a bit of deisel overnight. Turned the old grey over on the stand and stripped out what I could of the bottom end. I'll get to that bit later.

She was definitely and agricultural donk - not too many of the correct nuts and bolts left on her - probably dropped in the paddock when being repaired over time. I guess it tells a bit of a story about the life she probably endured and what probably found its way into the internals of the old girl over time.

This is what I found when I removed the sump:



While she looked pretty clean; but once I started getting into the important parts things weren't that great.

The first problem I faced is that I couldn't remove the woodruff key from the crank; so the oil slinger won't come off, so the cam can't come out. Applied a bit of heat to the opposite side of the key - still no movement. I have soaked it in WD40 and will have another look tomorrow. Not to be deterred I pulled off all the conrod bearing caps - that was when I noticed that every one of the crankshaft journals was scored. Not bad - but bad enough. It certainly none of them pass the fingernail test. I fully expect the main journals will be in the same condition.



As soon as I removed the bearing caps the crank was free. As 3 and 4 pistons were at the top of their stroke I was able to pop them both out with the tap of a wooden drift. No 1 was not rusted so was an easy push through as well. 2, 5 and 6 took a little more persuasion but once they broke free I was able to tap them out gently. Rings were gunked up but all moving freely.

With the pistons out I was able to do some more checks - I had planned on running the verniers over her but decided against it. There is a good wear lip around the top of every cylinder and the rust, particularly in 5 and 6 is more than a little surface rust that will hone out.

Assessment is that a rebore and regrind of the crank journals with the associated pistons, rings and bearings is the minimum that could be done to have her running well again. I'm sure I could get her back running in her current state - but I expect performance would be pretty poor. I guess we will see what the end result is with the 132 before deciding which one to put time and energy into first. I doubt that the extra couple of horses between the two will be all that noticable so I think the 132 is marginally in front - simply bacause she runs and I can keep the engine/ute combo together.

I have been offered a 138 that has been rebuilt so I will keep that as an option once I know what the price will be to get one of these old girls back in shape.

Cheers n Beers
Jolls


20  Technical Board / Modification Help / Re: Seat Belts on: January 23, 2024, 10:57:14 AM
In NSW the seatbelt thing is a bit of a minefield when it comes to older cars.

If your car came from the factory without seatbelts & they were fitted by the dealer at purchase or soon after, do you need a certificate from an RTA Authorised fitting station to register the car today ?

Holden sold Nasco accessory seatbelts from the early 60s, so a dealer could have fitted front (& maybe even rear) seat belts to your new EK in 1962, do these need a certificate because they are not factory ?

Same goes for many 2nd hand cars from the 70s. Repco, Britax & other sold countless seatbelt kits during that time & these were then fitted to ten of thousands of pre-70 2nd hand cars by dealers, mechanics & owners themselves. Were these ever checked or certified ?

How do you prove that the rear seatbelts in you EK were fitted last year (by you) or 30-40 years ago by a mechanic or dealer ?

Dr Terry

Grey areas - always an opportunity for exploitation!

Interesting thing is that by trying to do the right thing I simply pulled the top off a can of worms. Almost a write your own adventure for how to get from A to B.
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