Sounds like a good'n Leon,
Hope to see the progress and final results.

Regards, Smooth 

Thanks for contributing Scotty, I think you also see the merit.

...... Having said that I think all this debate can only help. I think the guidelines for what is regarded as stock and what is not has a lot of merit, but i thought these were spelt out in the official program given to every entrant.

It's too late in the "entrant program". The guidelines should be known during the build/restoration to all and sundry that care to know.

...... I know from experience that not even a barnfind that was put away 30 odd years ago has all the original parts on it. The only way we can get as close to the original parts list as possible is to get all the Guru's to talk to one another and put there heads together and write a list of things that they know are right and a list of doubtfuls and debate the doubtfuls as to which parts are more authentic than the others. Then put a score on each part.

Yup, my point exactly and why not? Can only improve the system and scene as a whole. Finally adding some consistency across the board.

..... The only problem with this is that the judges will need a week to judge the stock cars let alone the other cars that are there. Unfortunately this is how it all becomes very complex and in the end we come up with a compromise so we can get every car judged in a day.

Yup, also very true. But if the system is set amongst all the early Holden models and are well know with reference. Quality judging wouldn't take so long "once you know what to look for" and not rely on folk law or your own understanding (or misunderstanding as it may be) and theories. Put it in "Black and White" then entrants and judges are basically on an equal playing field.

Regards, Smooth 

[rewarded]

A couple of points - Corbin clamps are not the only clamp authentic to FE FC - All period pictures from Wheels, Modern Motor etc show engine bays with strap clamps with nuts and bolts, except one which I think was a feature on twin carbs - We accept both clamps as authentic.

Corbin are the clamps shown in "GMH" literature and an argument can be made that because of the known issues with these that cars offered for "Road Tests" were already improved for this short coming because they were to be "tested". I'm not saying this happened, but who's to say it didn't? You can make the judging rules on genuine GMH articles or in conjunction with others of the same period. GMH even have a correct tool listed for the Corbin clamps. Anyway either way, I'm happy to accept either as original. Unlike worm drives that were rewarded this year.

If there were to be a thrashed out set of rules that were adopted after input from those in the know, then people would have a target and guideline to work to and from.
This was the point I was trying to make in my initial post. Just because you or the others chosen to judge know, doesn't mean those trying to attain reward do! Really people should be able to look these things up and have a guideline to work from and aspire to.

That said - I believe that if corrected in a few areas, the car could be a contender again.

I believe I already mentioned a "quite word". But better still a readable set of guidelines to read and maybe the reasons as to why.

I cannot accept that a car regardless of quality can win top stock just because it has all the "right" bits fitted. This sort of vehicle belongs in authentic / original / unrestored class - not stock class.

I'm not sure where you are getting this from? My point is not to reward the "almost correct" when there are correct cars of similar standing. If you think that the car that won was a country mile ahead of "all" the others judged for "Stock" engine bays - then fair enough. But the simple fact was, that it isn't/wasn't. You seem to have a funny classing system either in the scrutinising for class or the award classes. You say not "Stock Class"? How does Stock differ from the others mentioned. As I said, one class is enough for Original unmodified cars (all encompassing) and if you feel you need to award something for "Authentic" then you can simple do so easily from the limited entries in the original class (or stock class if you prefer it called that). Either by experience or if you like, tallying the scores awarded.

I have no connection to anybody that displayed at the Nationals nor any influence over the judging procedure. What I feel is that some people were unhappy and in my eyes with valid arguments. Like I said I see it from both sides and based on my own suggestions my own cars would need further improvement to be competitive.

Fact is, right is right and wrong is always wrong. Don't reward wrong.

Seems it's about "our" system and what "we" want and do, rather than trying to nut a fair agreeable system across the early Holden scene that helps the set up the future on a known platform based on the wealth of experience and literature that us mad early Holden enthusiasts possess.

Regards, Smooth 

Many thanks for your reply John,

Up until a few months ago it also had its correct - and I assume original - yellow wire hose clamps, which I was pretty happy about. On a short drive of less than 8klms the car overheated, pretty seriously. What had happened was that the clamp on the bottom hose at the radiator end simply broke and the car spat all of its water out. By the time the light went on and I could smell it, it had already overheated.

These clamps are known as Corbin's and yes yellow in colour. I hadn't mentioned these on this forum, so it is obviously something you know is correct (Though I don't remember seeing any fitted at this years nationals). It was a common problem which led to the Utilux bolt clamps (never worm drive) being the replacement by Holden and thus typically these are deemed acceptable because that was the "fix". Still, the wire Corbin's are shall we say more original and when it comes to judging the Corbin should score higher than Utilux bolt clamps, even if it is just a single point each.

As for things being safer and more practical etc. These can be fitted for the show display just like original 50+ year old fan belts or cross ply tyres. It is not uncommon for items to be switched out for display to gain authenticity. I do it myself with the steering wheel, AC radiator cap and accelerator heel pad. Others choose to swap out modern batteries for tar top battery cases. This gives a more accurate display and should be rewarded.

Just keep a close eye on those wire clamps....

I have no issue (to date, fingers crossed) with the wire hose clamps on either of mine and I've done many long and interstate trips.
But what you raise is a fair point and I think I covered what some do on display day to gain maximum judging points.

On the day, people who go to the trouble and expense should be rewarded and in the end be the trophy winners, those who make only a "part attempt" should run second to that no matter how close. (of course this is an opinion) but one that is fair to original, stock, authentic, restored class.

I realise it's hard for competing members to speak out in fear of repercussions so I appreciate you making some sort of attempt.

Regards, Smooth 

Wanted to buy.



Both positive and negative versions in good condition.
Also require butterfly nuts and brackets for battery clamp.
Genuine Holden items only.

If you can help that would be great! 

Regards, Smooth 

It is possible to only allow "approved" bidders. Or at least it used to be that way.
You will need to read up on ebay about listings.

Visit http://help.ebay.com.au/Help/Search
and type in Approved Bidders

Regards, Smooth 

Thank for your considered reply Ken.

Hopefully others have opinions to offer (both from judging and entrants) point of view.

Regards, Smooth 

Thats very cool.

Although my car isnt anywhere near the standard of Leon's I would love it to be done with mine.

Cheers
Paul

Perhaps if we catch up at a show or event I could shoot your car Paul.
Unless you have plans to visit Bathurst?

I "may" be shooting at the NSW All Holden Day in August.

Regards, Smooth 

We added an authenticity score to all stock class cars to further penalise non stock items so in fact the quality has to be excellent for a not quite stock car to beat a really stock car.
This is the reason why the car that one did.

One=won! OK, I feel its points "lost" to a points "gained" system. You state you award points for plastic reservoirs? I appreciate how hard it is to come up with these systems and results and I also appreciate the time and effort people put into judging. But at the end of the day people who put the time and effort into getting things right on their cars have worked just as hard if not harder.

Just as an example: Lets say you were judging Brake and Clutch cylinders and the points was out of say 10 points total.
As a judge I'd ask the question are these factory? Yes = 7 points No = 2  points a full 5 point split which is half the maximum (10) score available. From there, score them on condition, safety and finish adding and subtracting points as you go. Where correct items in perfect condition and presentation are awarded maximum points and incorrect items can only score half this maximum (5) amount in the exact same condition and presentation.  

Lets look at another scenario: You have a perfect original standard stock car but you fit a 4 speed gearbox to it. No other modification in anyway. Where is it placed? Stock or Street? If the answer is Stock class and it has a chance of winning Best Stock or Best Authentic (whatever we call it) just because it has amassed more points in every other area this would be 100% laughable.

More reward should go to those who restore/maintain as close to original as possible and if you go away from this in your build you do so knowing you pushing yourself into another category, or penalising yourself with non factory release item in a scoring sense such as modern clamps, reservoirs, fan belts, wiper blades, batteries etc.

As one of your so called "experts" - I didn't see a single car which was 100% authentic so a 0 points score cannot work - you must have cars which are not quite right in stock class for the class to exist.
That said I did suggest that more glaring items such as electric wipers, power boosters and plastic washer bottles be automatically put in street class. But can you really suggest that a car with plastic master cylinders or wrong hose clamps should go straight into street class?

Well first of all you shouldn't be placing electric wiper and brake boosted cars into another class if they are fitted with genuine NASCO items such as the 7418909 Wiper motor or VH24 period released PBR booster. But I 100% see the point with EK wiper motors and VH44 boosters etc. Also, I'm not saying cars should be excluded from being in a category because of minor replacements items like the worm drive hose clamps or plastic reservoirs etc. But I am saying that they shouldn't be the trophy winners either. If they are so close and of quality - a quite whisper in the ear to let them know "if you change this and that" you will most certainly be in the running. This help drives these cars into a higher echelon and doesn't reward "almost got it right" especially when others have got it closer to the mark.

Further to the "reference" cars registrar idea:
If such a car was to say be awarded with this title by a governing body/committee the value of these cars would increase and become more desirable.
Sure you may have exclusions added. I.E: Barn find car has been inspected by the "experts" and it has been found to be a pristine original example apart from noted items.

1. Aftermarket mudflaps fitted to rear
2. Replacement radiator hose clamps on lower hose.
3. Quarter panel on left read has been repaired and painted at some stage.
Etc.

These cars could be made available at shows or "Concours" event for reference and people could use these examples as the guide to all things correct in their restorations. Judging standards set from them in conjunction with GMH literature and approved acceptance items.
Further to that; These cars would make the basis for Concours De' Elegance judging and allow people to strive and finally be awarded Concours De' Elegance certification which in no doubt would make the car more valuable on the open market because it would have a title of substance added to it.

Our cars are old, getting older. The knowledge is going to fade out if moves are not made to put something concrete in place.

Anyway, I thought I'd raise it and offer up an idea to improve the system as a whole.
If you feel you have it right the way it is, then who am I to contribute?

Regards, Smooth    

Thanks for your comments Smooth, What you have described follows pretty closely with what we do. Our 3 classes are not far from what you describe.
The discussion in this thread was mainly about authentic judging which is far more difficult than class judging.

Yes, I can see that this is where the thread headed.
Let me say though, class judging (or category placing) is simple. Set the rules and stick with them. Make it clear if you go outside the guidelines you place yourself into another class/category and this how it is with good reason. On top of this, make it clear what the classes are and what defines them.

Put simply, original class must have cars included which are not 100% authentic, there are very few cars (if any) which are 100% original, so we set a value of 20 points lost from stock which allows a vehicle to remain in stock class. Points are awarded for plastic master cylinders and incorrect hose clamps etc.

OK, I'm just trying to understand how your system works. For me, I saw far more "authentic" engine bays at the event and under any fair system these are the ones to be rewarded. The points I made where based on very obvious incorrect items fitted to meet either Original, Stock, Authentic, Un-Restored classes (whatever you choose to name it). There were more technically correct and better stock engine bays at the event. If your judging system came up with another answer after tallying the points all I'm saying is that it is clear the method has it's shortcomings. This you can simply dismiss this advise or you can choose to improve on it.

But - once you are in stock class, you can win stock class trophies, so it makes no difference if technically you have incorrect items in your engine bay - it is judged quality which trophies are awarded for.
Now you can argue about judging decisions till the cows come home - in the end it is the judges preference on quality.

I'm not bringing this up to argue about, I'm just explaining were I see a problem and asking for it to be explained so everyone has an understanding how such a result can come about (not hot headed but a discussion). You have made some effort to explain this. But to me, only goes further to show that the system as a whole from one group to another manage to reward technical faults and thus why people are left confused.

See next post as I exceeded the 5000 charterer limit. 

Regards, Smooth   

Thank you Leon for letting me shoot the image.

Also congratulations on winning Grand Champion.

Well deserved 

Hopefully others might let me someday shoot their car and not be put off by the equipment (gently does it everytime).

Regards, Smooth 

[Original]

G'day Fella's,

I have been reading this thread with interest along with supporting documents.
For an outsider looking in, I have found it very interesting.

Certainly I have been on both sides of the fence here, both as a judge and as a recipient.
I have always had reservations on the peer judging that the FB-EK Car Clubs utilise because if you are not part of a "clique" this can be detrimental to your cars chances on a personality basis. Or you can fall fowl to say, Sedan guys only voting for other sedans and either forgetting about commercials or station sedans or choosing not to vote for them because of dislike of a particular body style (the same can be said for colour, style of mag wheel etc).

That said, they do seem to have a great understanding of simplifying classes.

• Original
• Sports
• Modified

Original requires the car to be as close to production as possible. With the only exceptions being radial tyres, carpet, hidden modern stereo (Still these limited modern items are discouraged) and preference should go to original everytime. It shouldn't though exclude them from this class otherwise you are pushed to "Sports" category. All NASCO options are permissible including Alloy Rocker cover along with other period (non go fast) aftermarket accessories. 
Sports being categorised as no structural modifications, but can be fitted with multiple carbies, headers, mag wheels, bucket seats and only period sports offerings (Side shifter, aftermarket Alloy Rocker Covers and the like) etc.
Modified pertaining to cars that have had structural modifications such as transmission tunnel, body mods, Red motor, V6/V8, 9" diff, Tubbed, Flared guards, disc brakes etc.

This seems fair to me and quite simple. Sure I see the argument for "Authentic" and on a lesser scale "Driven" vs "Trailered" points should be awarded for driven (in my eyes).
I would think though, based on votes either by peer judging or "professional" judging you can pull out the scores for the limited amount of these Authentic entries and award the best of these a trophy or plate etc.

On to "professional" judges. While I understand that these people are deemed knowledgeable on the product models at hand and generally well respected for their advise and offerings over a long period of time. People don't know everything!, and it is evident that even this year awards have gone to some that "in my eyes" weren't deserved and it was glaringly obvious that somehow even this points system has failed. Now maybe I'm speaking out of hand here? Because I'm not part of the inner sanctum, but this doesn't mean I don't know what I'm on about. The car that one "Best Stock Engine Bay" c'mon the owner must have fell of his chair when this was announced. That's not to say the car was bad or even the engine bay itself, it's a loverly vehicle and a credit to it's owner. But it wasn't the best stock engine bay at the Nationals - not even close. I'll go on to explain why I feel it so. The car was fitted with plastic brake and clutch reservoirs, modern battery, worm drive radiator hose clamps for a start. I guess you could call for an argument that this is still a "stock" engine bay because it's not modified by way of a red motor etc. But in my eyes this is surely an award for the best original stock engine bay? It must be hard on those who have gone to the trouble and expense to get these thing right only to see the award go elsewhere.

I'd really like to know how this was awarded the trophy for Best Stock Engine Bay.
When I see something this glaringly obvious this taints the perception on all the other results.

I guess what I'm getting at is that I'd like to see all early Holden clubs get together with their "experts" to finally nut out a proper classing and judging system that is actually fair and leads to correct results. Uniformed across the models and devised from good hard facts not just guesstimations and folk law. This of course requires factual proof of certain things and this comes from GMH printed articles and "reference" cars (in fact I'd like to see reference cars rewarded and on a national registrar). It is these "experts" that own or have possession to this literature and once something is proven fact it can be adopted. This is where a true Concours d'elegance award could truly come into play.

Anyway, I didn't post this to knock anybodies car, any person or club. I did so in the interests in the history of early Holden's and in an attempt to see if others feel similar to myself.

Personally, I'd be interested in helping this become a reality. If not, I'll just crawl back into my hole

Regards, Smooth 

Jump in Leon's beautiful FE Sedan
On display at the 13th FE-FC Nationals 2010

Omnidirectional Photograph

Click Here to view.
Omnipix | See All, Everywhere

Regards, Smooth

As a matter of interest my wifes FC has a full body colour engine bay. It is '58 Sydney build 225.
The original black underbody is Nitrocellulose GMH chassis paint. This is what I used when touching up my FB Station Sedan.

Regards, Smooth

[SOLD]

Nothing is FREE and everything is at current market rates.
Dreamers and wishful thinkers not likely to be happy with prices.
Vague questions will not be answered along with those who wish to play secret squirrel.

NOS Bonnet "Bird" Mascot $250.00
Complete S/H NASCO Heater and Demistor + Switch, Vents, Tubes etc. $500.00
Rear Wheel Spats SOLD
Re-Chromed Taxi Hand Rail SOLD
Nanette Poli-mop (boxed) $200.00
NOS Electric Wiper Motor (boxed) $500.00
NOS Grill Badge (boxed) $1200.00
NOS Candy Horn Button (boxed) SOLD
NOS "Joker" Carby Lock with keys $250.00
High Note Horn SOLD
Denzil Holden Sports Bag (Grey) warn printing $150.00
Andrews Holden Sports Bag (Maroon) $450.00
NOS Boot Badge Insert (Real not Repro rubbish) $400.00
NOS FE Boot Badge Surround $75.00
NOS Locking Petrol Cap (can't find it) must be around here somewhere, maybe I sold it?
NOS Gear Lever Lock $150.00
NOS Rear Quarter "Special" Badges (real) SOLD
NOS Ignition Dash Bezel SOLD
NOS Foot Pump Style Clean Screen Washer Kit (Boxed) $350.00
NOS Bagged "Script" Number Plate Surrounds (M31957) SOLD
NOS Gear Lever Knob $80.00
NOS Day/Night Rear View Mirror (Boxed) SOLD
NOS Genuine Hand Brake Handle $65.00
Wilsonia Gauge SOLD
Vanity Mirror $200.00
Parcel Shelf SOLD
2 x Grey Motor Twin Carby Manifolds SOLD
NOS Seat Upright "Plastic" Trims in original packaging x 2 SOLD
NOS "rear" FE Door Step Plate (Zinc) in original packaging $60.00
Sta-Put Security Lock Steering Wheel to Clutch or Brake Pedal with NASCO Padlock. $200.00
NOS Blinker Knob (interior indicator stalk knob) $45.00
Complete AC Oil Filter with Bracket, Lines and adaptor fittings etc. $100.00
Sunvisor complete with brackets and end plates. $120.00
Chrome AC Oil Filter with lid and hoses. SOLD
4x NASCO Thumbprint Dress Rims SOLD
NOS Quarter Panel "Special" Badge $120.00
2x NOS Quarter Panel "Shield" Badges SOLD
1x Secondhand Quarter Panel "Special" Badge SOLD
NOS Boxed Vacuum Wiper "Repair/rebuild" Kit SOLD
NOS NASCO grained front door scuff protection plates SOLD
FC Holden Re-Chromed Grill Badge Surround with Brackets. SOLD
NASCO Alloy Rocker Cover (unmolested) NASCO stamped (Tappet Silencer) $350.00
NOS NASCO Door Mirror Kit (Anti-Glare) #7384468 SOLD
NOS Drivers Side Mirror Stalk #7384468RH (with gasket, washer, spring washer and nut) $80.00
NOS Hub Cap (Stainless Steel) SOLD
NOS Period "Devil Dog" Car Alarm "Union Electric Co." (Sydney) Complete with Instructions $150.00
Britax/Nasco Seat Belt "Roll-Ups" SOLD
NASCO Dash Thermometer (Suction Cup Fitment) SOLD
NOS Complete (Boxed) Taillight Assembly (including Lenses) SOLD


Regards, Smooth   
http://www.earlyholdens.com/phpBB2

[nasco "at" earlyholdens.com]

The reason he wrote it as nasco "at" earlyholdens.com is because there are "robots" that scan the pages for email addresses to add to spam mailing lists.
So it's like c-ride said

Mods - PLEASE remove my email address that is showing in the forum thread. I get enough emails from dreamers, tossers and knuckleheads without being added to robot spam lists.

Regards, Smooth 

[SOLD]

OK all of a sudden I'm getting emails about this thread which is over a year old (actually 2006).
I'm updating what I think has sold and what is still available.

Nothing is FREE and everything is at current market rates.
Dreamers and wishful thinkers not likely to be happy with prices.
Vague questions will not be answered along with those who wish to play secret squirrel.

NOS Bonnet "Bird" Mascot
Complete NASCO Heater and Demistor + Switch, Vents, Tubes etc.
Rear Wheel Spats SOLD
Re-Chromed Taxi Hand Rail SOLD
Nanette Poli-mop (boxed)
NOS Electric Wiper Motor (boxed)
NOS Grill Badge (boxed)
NOS Candy Horn Button (boxed) SOLD
NOS "Joker" Carby Lock with keys
High Note Horn SOLD
Denzil Holden Sports Bag (Grey)
Andrews Holden Sports Bag (Maroon)
NOS Boot Badge Insert (Real not Repro)
NOS FE Boot Badge Surround
NOS Locking Petrol Cap
NOS Gear Lever Lock
NOS Rear Quarter "Special" Badges (real) SOLD
NOS Ignition Dash Bezel SOLD
NOS Foot Pump Style Clean Screen Washer Kit (Boxed)
NOS Bagged "Script" Number Plate Surrounds (M31957) SOLD
NOS Gear Lever Knob
NOS Day/Night Rear View Mirror (Boxed) SOLD
NOS Hand Brake Handle
Wilsonia SOLD
Vanity Mirror
Parcel Shelf SOLD
2 x Grey Motor Twin Carby Manifolds SOLD
NOS Seat Upright "Plastic" Trims in original packaging x 2 SOLD
NOS "rear" Door Step Plates (Zinc) in original packaging
Sta-Put Security Lock Steering Wheel to Clutch or Brake Pedal with NASCO Padlock.
NOS Blinker Knobs (interior indicator stalk knobs)
Complete AC Oil Filter with Bracket, Lines and adaptor fittings etc.
Sunvisor complete with brackets and end plates.
Chrome AC Oil Filter with lid and hoses. SOLD
4x NASCO Thumbprint Dress Rims SOLD
NOS Quarter Panel "Special" Badge
2x NOS Quarter Panel "Shield" Badges SOLD
1x Secondhand Quarter Panel "Special" Badge SOLD
NOS Boxed Vacuum Wiper "Repair/rebuild" Kit SOLD
NOS NASCO grained front door scuff protection plates SOLD
FC Holden Re-Chromed Grill Badge Surround with Brackets. SOLD
NASCO Alloy Rocker Cover (unmolested) NASCO stamped (Tappet Silencer)
NOS NASCO Door Mirror Kit (Anti-Glare) #7384468 SOLD
NOS Drivers Side Mirror Stalk #7384468RH (with gasket, washer, spring washer and nut)
NOS Hub Cap (Stainless Steel)
NOS Period "Devil Dog" Car Alarm "Union Electric Co." (Sydney) Complete with Instructions
Britax/Nasco Seat Belt "Roll-Ups" SOLD
NASCO Dash Thermometer (Suction Cup Fitment) SOLD
NOS Complete (Boxed) Taillight Assembly (including Lenses) SOLD


Regards, Smooth 
http://www.earlyholdens.com/phpBB2

The following is now sold....

NOS NASCO grained front door scuff protection plates
NOS FC Holden Passenger Rear scuff/step plate x 1 (1x Remaining)
FC Holden Re-Chromed Grill Badge Surround with Brackets.

Regards, Smooth  

[SOLD]

FC HOLDEN RE-CHROMED GRILL BADGE SURROUND with BRACKETS.


Sorry no (Insert) Just metal hardware.

http://cgi.ebay.com.au/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=150057956929

Goes LIVE at 2pm Sunday 12th
Forum members know before the Ebay masses.

This one has a BUY IT NOW of $175.00 if you are fast enough. 'Else it's happy bidding!

SOLD

Regards, Smooth  

More items sold and paid for........

High Note Horn package
4x NASCO Thumbprint Dress Rims
NOS Quarter Panel "Special" Badge
2x NOS Quarter Panel "Shield" Badges
1x Secondhand Quarter Panel "Special" Badge

Tonight I did find another:

AC Delco Oil Filter Kit "Complete" (Lines, Adaptor, Bracket Etc). Everything needed to fit to engine.
NOS Boxed Vacuum Wiper "Repair/rebuild" Kit

Regards, Smooth