FE-FC Holden Discussion Forum

Hi all, Just scored a black 202 efi from VK Calais for free. it runs and comes with trimatic.
Any one used one of these? I was wondering if they're any good and what their bad points are? and can i run the 3 speed colum behind it?

I have not used one, but in principle they are not too dis-similar to a RED 202.

Red's were 202 badged, Blue's and Blacks were badged as 3300...in effect the same style of motor, but each one an improvement over the last.
Blacks were the last OLD 6 motors made, before they went to the RB30 Nissan Motor in the VL and the subsequent Buick based motors we see today.

As far as I know, the Black motors were the first and last motors to run a Holden Injection system.  Wouldn;t say they were the most advanced injection systems around, but they were the first on a commodore, and the are pretty basic, and quite a few guys use these on there rebuilds.

I have a trimatic and YES, I have / had it on the column, but being on a black motor, chances are your trimatic is the later model with the linkages on the passenger side of the box, so I'm not sure about linking it to your column, as my trimatic is the earlier type, with the linkages on the drivers side.

Can't comment too much on the performance of black motors, other than to pass on 2 versions of rumours I've heard.

One is that the Black motor was the worst they made, the other is they are great !

You will have to ask someone more mechanically minded than me, but one thing I do know, is that in a Street Machine artical from back in the day, a well known Motor builder said that RED motors were the best, but the cranks were crap......get a crank out of a Blue / Black motor, as the red motor crank has a torsional vibration.   The black motor cranks also have the vibration, but it's further up the rev range where you won;t ever get to any way !

That's about as much as I can say.....hope you find all the answers you are looking for, and from someone more qualified than me.

CHeers

mark

I run a black 202 with trimatic column shifter - however not EFI.

This link may be of assistance though-:

http://www.fefcholden.org.au/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.cgi?board=howto;action=display;num=1115997892;start=

Cheers
Tim

Ive been running an injected black 202 in an FC with a supra 5 speed and cant rave enough ,It gets better fuel economy than my V6 commodore ,has heaps of power and sounds awesome.
Id recomend doing it very highly from my experiance but Id put the injection on top ,I had a blue 202 in a commodore years ago and it had no power at all.
I also had a VK wagon here for a while and only drove it about 150 klms and it felt much the same way.

Aparently Pirtek sell the plugs for the non EFI head to adapt the injection but cost a packet ,In my opinion I would buy the head with the injection already attatched and swap it straight over.

The lip on your passenger side of the firewall will need about 25 mm of persuasion to clear the bunch o bananas

hey harko,  was going to send you a pm re this, would it be possible to get some pics of the injector setup you mentioned, this post has just re-sparked my curiosity in a efi setup.
it looks like someone has previosly 'persuaded' my fire wall possibly for triples.

cheers
dean

thanks guys.
any other photos or tips?

 I did a bit of research on these motors a while back and was told the best thing to do with them was toss the bosch ecu and fit a delco unit out of a JE Camira .  
There is a mob called Kalmaker who are the ones you need to speak to regarding this , the bloke I spoke to was very helpful over the phone. I think it was ED from this forum who put me onto this mob , he had plenty of helpful info about fuel injection too - may be worth your while sending him a PM.
Another thing I have heard is that the EFI black motor head was the best head Holden produced in terms of efficiency , so if nothing else you picked up a good head !

www.kalmaker.com.au

and specifically

http://kalmaker.hotrodhandbooks.com.au/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=102&highlight=

blacky, thanks
I always love picking up a good head

hi guys,

I'm hardly a guru on EFI, but I certainly am keen on the Delco 808 set up.

After retro-fitting the Delco set up to a Red 308 with aftermarket induction. It’s not that difficult, the beauty of aftermarket bits are somebody has usually sorted out most bugs already.

The subject has been discussed previously but I’m not sure where to find it now.

In any case I reckon a really horn EFI set up can be made using lots of factory bits and pieces, thus retaining things like TPS on the Throttle bodies (TB) etc.  The MAP system is good because you could adapt TB’s from a variety of cars including the astra, camira, VN etc .

Imagine twin TB’s on a custom intake manifold, running great things like knock sensors to retard the timing should detontation occur.

Not to mention the ability to trace faults thru the system by using the ALDL link, using something as simple as.. wait for it… a paperclip!

As for cost. I bought a spare ECU last week.. $35.  A knock sensor. $30.
So the entire set up wont set you back a huge amount anyway.

You will need a wiring book, and be prepared to read and digest the theories behind principle of operation and set ups… also spend the time to wire it up.

Once I finish my current project I figure a nice 202 with an injected system may be on the cards!

I personally wont go back to carbs.

Cheers

Ed

sounds like some stuff to occupy the dreamtime mate, might just have to make friends with some fabricators, or the alternative if you have some serious $$$ check this out from jzed (7 second holden 6 :o :o)

http://www.jzedholden6.com.au/jzedgallery/gallery.asp?action=browse&categoryid=25&whichpage=1

now this setup would look sweet!
oh to dream :-/

dean

I tried to get the best of everything for my 179, now it has a crank, rods and head from a black efi motor.
I think the black efi had simular power to the xu1, it even has a sportier cam than the carb motor, I have also heard the computer is a let down, other thing is all the bits and peices are getting old and deteriorating.
there are guys who do these up on some of the commodore forums, I had one in a vk and thought it was better than the vr I had before but one day it didnt start so I bought a $600 ford LTD to get me around, now I never break down unless the ford fans at work are looking and I fake a break down.

so are there any real drama's with this conversion or anything much different between converting an efi 202 or a red 186?

Only that in NSW going over 191 cubes means further engineering certification and mods than 161-186.  Not sure about Qld.

cheers
RET

Hey Bloke (HARKO)
you got any pics of your efi set up in the FC?
what fuel pump did you use?
Did you need anything spaecial for the transport blokes?

does any one know what these things are worth ?(seeing mines free I wouldn't mind knowing)

 Not a hell of a lot - I picked up a complete motor with computer , exhaust manifold , etc for a carton and a complete VK with one in it for $250.

i got given a black efi for nothing-heard it running in the vk.  they are not a bad motor, once you remove all the bugs (like what leon was talking about) computer etc..

any one got pics or confirm if I need to bash the fire wall a bit?

yes, you have to move the fire wall in aswell as maybe cut the seem next to the engine recess in the firewall, if I get a chance before anyone else gets a pic up, I will put one up.
A good point is this probably opens options up to other carb set ups if you ever decide to remove the efi and go back to carbs.

you will never want to go back to carbs... trust me.

can I avoid butchering the fire wall by moving the motor forward and use a thermo fan and electric water pump to avoid the fan hitting the nose frame?

Probably not and you might upset the balance/handling of the car by moving so much weight forward.

why would I need to move the fire wall anyway?
Dont the red 202 or 186 conversions escape fire wall masacre

They do, but running triples or a VK manifold will need the firewall recessed.

See here,
(http://tinyurl.com/kwpel)

i dont think the firewall needs to be drastically recessed, pretty sure it was just the lip on the firewall needs to be ground down (removed!) on the passenger side. i know there is a  pic around here somewhere, ill have a look..

fc fitted with injected red 6 with vk injection and a blower.

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v608/customfc2/Holden/blown2.jpg)

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v608/customfc2/Holden/blown.jpg)

and the last one of harkos sedan firewall, this was fitted with a black efi 202. as you can see, its only the lip on the passenger side that has been modified..

(http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y187/Harko/FCbuildup009.jpg)

hey nes, i will be running the VK manifold matched up to my 186 head, and have run into a few problems you will have to look at.

yes the firewall will need to be persuaded but only about 20-30 mm in, if you are still to paint the enginebay now is the time to do it. the lip needs to be ground back and a big hammer could push the firewall in enough. otherwise if you are handy with welder and grinder cut out a section and reces it. fortunately my car was set up with triples before i got it so the firewall is already back enough.
i have also been told that there might not be enough room for the standard fuel rail to fit. this was told to me by a reputable efi/. turbo specialist fitting this setup into a ek.

also i i had a trial fitting of the intake maifold the other night and found that the 1st and last exhaust collectors foul on the 1st and last intake runners, you will be able to get away with this if you are using the extractors from the VK and the 202 head. as i am using a 186 head with the mounting studs  in a different position to the 202  i am getting the 2 collectors angled down by around an inch to clear the runners.

this is by no means the last things you will have to change, as i am starting to find out but  with you using the black engine it should be easier. if you are going to use the ECU from a camira delco 808 get all the engine sensors aswell plus loom as i have been told there will be problems with the ecu getting correct data from the black sensors. also the standard VK throttle body aparently wont co-operate with the delco ecu

then you got to look at your fuel system.
a return line has to be fitted, your FC tank modified to accept the return line and a surge tank incorporated plus external pump, or use a tank out of a later model car running EFI, preferably with internal baffles, this may get away from using the surge tank.
this all a new learning curve for me too.

it will be worth it in the long run though.
dean

Nice bunch of bannana's hangin off the side there. looks good painted up too. I was really hoping to avoid the fire wall.....got  any more pics of the motor installed looking downward between the fire wall and inlet manifold/block? and one showing the gap between the radiator and fan?
there was one on here but it was blurry.
Cheers mate

i think the one you were refering to was the one that harko supplied, this is the only one i have seen but it still gives you a good idea of the clearance required.
unfortunately i dont think you will get away without some sort of firewall modification, and as stinky said if you do move the motor too far forward you could upset the handling. the only real way you will see what is required is to trial fit the motor with engine mounts in the correct position for the 202 then fit the efi manifold, fuel rail and extractors. but you will find they will foul on the firewall, and im sure the RTA require some form of minimal clearance especially when something of this style is being fitted. remember that there will be some movement of the engine when running. when i get around to the final fitup i could take some pics for you but that wont be for a couple of weeks.

bite the bullet and give it a go ;)
cheers
dean

Hi Ya nes138
    This inlet manifold was specially made for my car so there were no "Mods" done to the firewall (rear carby tapered forward a little) , but they are a "very tight fit" on the 192 Red , I don't think they'd pass RTA .  I've got a standard waterpump & stock fan & radiator but not much room at the front & the motor misses the firewall by less than 10mm , you can just see this in the bottom pic .  If you've got the chance while the bay is empty , it might be worth "knocking it back" a bit 15mm + .   The car is reasonably balanced   &  used to corner pretty well , but then again it's on 10" slicks and VERY low .  
 (Please excuse the pic , was taken before the engine bay was cleaned up)

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v138/normd/carby2.jpg)

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v138/normd/Fc-fix09.jpg)

Norm   :)

Couple of more pics showing a Red in the enginebay without modifying radiator or firewall.

Gap at fan to radiator about 10 mm

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v138/normd/FC004a.jpg)

Gap between head/exrtactors to body less than 10 mm

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v138/normd/FC015a.jpg)

No room for aircleaners here

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v138/normd/FC014a.jpg)

If the EFI is any bigger than this , ya gotta get "the Harko Adjuster" (angle grinder)  out  ;D

( Guys used to mount a "chain" with a turnbuckle between rear of the block to the body to stop putting the fan through the radiator under braking )

Geesh , I gotta clean that engine bay up again   :-/ , Haven't touched it since Nov  12 mths ago .....

  Norm  :)

lol,ya gotta love that.
the" HARKO ADJUSTER."

Norm, Cheers for the photos.
If only my ex was like that. The EFI bunch O bannanas apparently is larger. all I want is to move it around while I do the body rubbers and chrome. I found a VN Commodore in the trading post "running and just out of rego, no rust" for two hundred quills. I was thinking about parking that in the driveway and just transfering the whole lot across to the FC including diff wiper motor brake booster wire hearness seat belts fuel tank fuel pump etc, At least (I'm told) theres no bay modification (just crossmember). At least while there's nothing in the engine bay I can paint it up to look really neat, just like yours heh heh. Just jokes, at least it gives me a really good idea of what i'm up against

Hey Bloke (Smithy / Dean) caught your thread on kalmaker and it seems you are having a hell of a time ironing out problems with this system. Makes me want to abandon the whole thing and go directly to V6. Probably have a whole other set of problems there too...

Smithy,

Cruised in on kalmaker as well and had a little read.

sensors.

You will need a
MAP (manifold air pressure) mount this in engine bay.
MAT (mainfold air temp) mount in air cleaner.
CTS (coolant temp sensor) you may need to tap into your coolant passage? Luckily I had 2 sender holes in my motor.

Hooter has suggested your distributor issues.

I can provide you with all the wiring diagrams you need to make it happen, if you would like.  the Holden book is recommended tho as you can diagnose all the fault codes properly.

also stick with the VN throttle body, just make an adaptor to suit.

VL had external pumps as did early VN.

you do not need a surge tank, I happened to put one in.. don't know why as the wagon corners like a barge anyway.

to make a return line weld on a an earls steel fitting to the tank and use the appropriate hose end to suit.

Nes,
Im not so sure if a V6 conversion is easier than sorting out EFI on a red.. lol

just be analytical in your approach.

HTH

Ed

cheers ed, i would be interested in the wiring diagrams. if you could email them to my work address i can print em up ;)

turns out now that i cant run the vk manifold on the red head so ive managed to arrange a swap for a twelve port. pitty the red head is a stage 3 yella terra, so that will fix 1 problem. thinking about cutting the boot up and trying to fit a VS tank in, as i said im thinking?

sourcing the camira engine sensors and loom at the moment, mainfold is partly polished and looking real purty, im applying the harko 20 minute rule on that.
the only thing that has me sorta confussed at the moment is by what hooter meant by "locking off the distributor and vacuum"
but apart from that its sorta falling into place, all be it slowly. :-/ ;).


nes, i am pretty sure you will run into more dramas and a lot more $$$ trying to fit the V6 than fitting up the 202
cheers
dean

Dean,

will need to snail mail you the diagrams, basically it is just the pin outputs of the 808 to the applicable sensor.

it is the tip of the iceberg really, the book has heaps of info.

Cheers

Ed

 Smithy -  My V6 EK has a VR fuel tank in it , fits pretty neatly. Just need to take a bit off the flange where the tank is joined so the spring hangers dont hit it.
 I have seen an FB with an XB Frod fuel tank in it , that was a good swap , fits well and your spare wheel sits down into it.
P.S. I wouldnt mind a set of those diagrams myself .

Guys,
      my ultimit goal was/is to have the V6 as a final product. the free 202 was a means to be able to drive the car around, or it will kill me to see it sit there after its painted and do nothing. Thats why I said I might cut to the V6......save two sets of stuffing arounds

hey nes, if i was in your spot id convert to the 202 now, have some fun and cruise. put your V6 on a engine stand and rebuild it, paint and polish it source some performance parts, twin throttle bodies / supercharger etc. gather all your conversion bits needed engine mounts, steering colum rack and peanut steering, ;D  headers, gearbox and crossmember and all the other little bits needed. you could even get yourself another HR crossmember and set that up for the V6 or buy one from one of the conversion places CRS, or  pat gardener www.v6conversions.com.au
a couple of grand there easy ???
not sure how your car is setup but you may even have to look into chasis stregthening aswell. this could all be done over a longer period making it easier to afford ;)

by converting over to the 202 now (if you go down the EFI path) you should have the some of the work done already completed, like the return lines fuel tank and pump and hopefully most of the wiring upgraded to handle the increased circuts, which leads me to ask about your wiring, is it still standard cause you may want to suss out whether it could cope with the EFI.
then when the time and $$$ are right convert over to the readyV6.

or take the easier way out now put the 202  in now, run it off whatever carby setup you like, no need for a lot of stuffing around, cruise then start collecting for your swap.
well thats my 2c worth ;D ;D

blacky
with the VR tank do you still have the filler in the original EK position or have you moved it? any cahnce of some pics please?
the FB was that the one in the latest cruzin mag if so it looked a nice swap.i have been trying to find some better pics showing the boot area but that is certainly an interesting option.

cheers
dean

Dean,  the original wiring is in but i'm keen to give it a toss. I cut it to bit any way. With the V6 I was just going to buy a 500 dollar just out of rego jobby as a donor car. It has everything!
Where did you get your return fuel lines from? Did you make your fuel line larger?
NES

 I used the lines out of the donor Commode , they fit straight in back to the rear spring hanger ,then a bit of minor tweaking and they look like they were made for it.
Smithy , will take some pics this weekend , the filler neck has been put back to the original spot although I would like to put it behind a door to neaten the rear of the car up eventually.
(http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y286/blacky61/EKRebuild011.jpg)

nice blacky, very nice. might just have to look into that ;) ;).

nes, there was a post dealing with fuel lines just a couple of weaks ago have a read of it, im still working out which tank setup i will go with, once thats sorted then i'll have a stab at the fuel lines.

dean

HEY BLOKE (BLACKY)
          Cheers for the photo. Did you know prior that the commodore lines were a close fit or did you hope for the best. How did you bend em?
nes

blacky, what are you runnin up front?

 I bought the car already converted to a V6 and auto , the fuel lines were already in there but like all the other work on the car , were as rough as guts.
I have been cleaning the car up , and repairing all the rust which had been bogged over ( see FB/EK website for more pics if interested ) . The fuel lines were riveted to the floor with bits of metal strapping , so I got another set off a donor because the old ones were almost rubbed through where the strap sat .They only need bending in the engine bay and where the floor kicks up to clear the diff - all the lines you can see in the photo are as the general made them.

 Sorry NES , I bend them with a pipe bender I bought from Bunnings. Does 1/4" , 5/16" and 3/8" pipe

 Smithy , photos of fuel tank ...
(http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y286/blacky61/EKRebuild024.jpg)

(http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y286/blacky61/EKRebuild025.jpg)

(http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y286/blacky61/EKRebuild026.jpg)

(http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y286/blacky61/EKRebuild027.jpg)

cheers heaps blacky, looks like a neat fit. how much work was needed in the boot area? any problems with fuel flowing out of the neck?
i know where i can grab a tank out of a vr so might do some measuring soon  ;) ;)

dean

Back to speaking of efi holden 202's
here is a pic of a warm 202 with vk injection fed by a turbo, its in a LX sedan that looks like grandads church car down to the origoinal hubcaps.
it has a pretty descent 512 rwhp.
http://home.iprimus.com.au/feroblast/New_Folder/enginetrana1.jpg

 Bumped for Fatboy  ;D