FE-FC Holden Discussion Forum

Any one know how hard it is to move engine mounts on an HR crossmember to fit a nissan VL Commodore 6?
Any thing else I need to worry about (sump or keeping the 3 speed column)?

if the sump is the original one, then it will need to be changed. as for 3 speed on the columb, what box
will you be running

also moving engine mounts isnt really that bad, but you will need a dummy block to re weld them in their correct position

whats the dummy block for?
at present sump is original but would love to keep 3 speed column but unsure what kind of box. any ideas?

the dummy block is for setting up the engine mounts,it is usually just a bare block wich is usually the easiest way to do things, you can use the motor you plan on using, but it would be much easier with a dummy block

Easy depends on your skills and the equipment you have. If you have a MIG welder and a good angle grinder and have used both a fair bit, then yes it is easy.

The VL motor is the Nissan RB30(?) from memory, keeping the three speed column would mean a custom bellhousing and big dollars. Places like Castlemaine Rod Shop, Dellow, Rods Racks and V6 Conversions would have kits for all of the bits you need for the RB30 conversion.

If you want to keep the three speed column, refit a grey or a red motor. Both of which mean a heap less engineering and fabrication. Fitting the grey MAY also make it easier for cheaper club/historic rego.

Spyro (spybo forum name) in SA has a VL motor in his FC and I believe still has original column shift, but I was talking to him the other night and he says it is really heavy and he is looking at changing it to a rack and pinion setup.
IMHO The VL motor swap is quite expensive and from what I've seen the later V6 is a better swap to do.

Ken

Agrree with Ken on this one.
My conversion runs the Jatco auto box straight out of the Comm Vl too.....planning to make a column shifter but will require some fancy wiring to get right so may leave as a floor shift t-bar but use a "period" t-bar shifter from another make???....anyone with suggestions.
Also The VL motor is heavy and will affect steering and is a deep motor so planning rack/pin is not straight forward....the V6 motor is an easier/cheaper option but may be a problem in some states due to capacity/power output of motor.

I found out if the v6 goes in i'll need to run 4 wheel discs. which is probably a good thing if the kids are in the back. I thought the rb30 would have been a cheaper option as it was used straight after the 202 black in commodores. I thought about the 3 speed colomn as i want to keep the bench seat and the front area clean of shifters, maybe i could slide a small t bar in

a v6 doesnt go much harder than a slightly worked red 6, keep that in mind..... if its $$$ your worried about, id be going for a red 6!

not only that, if your going for a red 6, you can keep your column shift :):)

Sorry Darcy, I would completely disagree with this comment. A 'slightly' worked red six, say an XU-1 style cam/carbies etc outputs about 190 - 200hp (140kW). A stock later model Holden V6 (VT) puts out about 150kw 0r 205Hp making the V6 a clear winner, especially if you take driveability into account. Add to this the reduced weight of an alloy engine, and you're way in front replacing a red six with a STOCK V6. Add a few mods and the V6 will tear away and leave the red six for DEAD.

You may or may not remember a race series called Formula Holden. Mark Skaife was very successful in this formula, as was Craig Lowndes. These modified 3.8 Litre race cars were the quickest things on the track, easily faster than a V8 Supercar.

So I say go for the V6, add a few mods, maybe a supercharger, and blow those old red sixes into the weeds  ;D

However if you want to hear one of the best engine notes EVER*, put a really worked red six in and enjoy the music!!!

Cheers,

Craig.

* The BEST one has to be an R/T Charger. These things sounded incredible in their day. Weber's, mmmmmmmmmmm ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D

The R/T's didn't just sound 'incredible' .... they howled like a Ferrari!!! 8) The sound of the R/T E48 Charger (very rare detuned E49) one of my uncles owned up until the late 1970's was something words can't describe. Not even a GTHO Phase 3 came close, a fully worked Red motor getting close but not quite there (still miles ahead of a F%&d).

Pete

i still believe that a red would be the better way to go!. it will be a hell of a lot cheaper to fit, you wont need to fit computer, fully new wiring harness 4 wheel discs etc etc

a red motor say with a steel crank, blue top end with some head work,  stock injection or aftermarket injection and a nice cam, would put out quite a lot of HP

if your after power, why not fit a v8? as there is the same amount of work as there is to fit a v6

anyway, just my personal opinion :)

Hey Darcy,

You're not wrong at all, but although we all love a red six they just can't hold there own anymore, especially against more modern powerplants like an alloy V6.  Personally I don't even think the Nissan 6 is a good choice, in basic turbo form these were rated at 150Kw, nothing that special when a stock V6 can make the same HP, albiet at less torque than the turboed 6 of a VL.

V8's are great if you want out and out performance, but legality is another consideration. Each to their own though, whatever floats ya boat  ;)

Cheers,

Craig.

Allright craig, when I get my FC back on the road I will meet you at the creek, bring your late model v8 efi xr8 and  and then you can stop talking shit.

No probs Leon, I'll leave the eight cylinder car at home and bring my late model 4 cylinder efi. ::)

Leon, here is Darcy's original comment which is what I responded to: . So is your red motor 'slightly worked'?  From what I have read, I don't think so.  CAPA are proposing v6 supercharger kits for the VT-VZ V6's and are planning on getting 300kW's on a stock motor. If you get a reliable and driveable 300kW's out of your engine I'll be cheering louder than everyone else.

There's no need to hijack this thread with a flame out, I want to, but I won't. I must be maturing in my old age.

As I said, whatever floats ya boat.

Cheers,

Craig.

Not sure what's going on here, Craig. But if you need someone to start a flame, I am your man! Just let me know. ;D

Seriously though, guys.
Have a real hard think about it. For an era modification, or you want to build a car & for some sort of sentimental reason, you like to go the red 6, then that is cool. A red 6 with a fair bit of work, does sound great. But, the amount of V6 cars that are out there now & the Hot-Up items that are being produced, you gotta say, go the V6 route. You can buy an VR VS Commodore, with eveerything you need in the Motor / tranny / computer department (Diff as well), for under $3000!

Not only do they have more KW, but the Torque they pump out is way hot! There is an old saying:
HP sells cars, Torque wins races (Or something like that, anyway). The point was, don't just let the HP figures fool you. Look at the Nm & I can bet, the V6 will be waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay ahead.
I took a brand spankers V6 Storm Crewman for a spin on the weekend & I can tell you, for a car that size, the V6 far kicked it along. I need a dual cab for work & i was very impressed, so I may get that instead of the V8 (As all the Neg press has got me wary of those V8s).

Torque, good point you made about cost, but have a think of what that beast you are getting built up is going to cost? The Red 6 is on that same road. I love the older motors, but you gotta face it, when you go to a big engineering shop & enquire about building a stock motor (Like I did) & they say I will have to source quite a few of the parts, as they are now not being produced. Hmmm, how long is there going to be bits available. Is there an easier way?

No flaming here, guys. That is my job. Go to Rants, Raves & Dummy spits & have a go at the "Hammer time" thread if you need to. I ain't choosy, I will biffo with anyone ;D ;D ;)

Craig, is that a New Golf GTi you are talking about? Now that is Tough!

Rob J

That's it Rob. You got it. A red six is great, I didn't say it wasn't, I was just referring to the fact that a slightly modded red six will be lacking compared to a more modern V6.

If you want full on performance, a V8 is generally the answer.

An ET calculator shows that to run what is these days a reasonable 1/4 time of 13 seconds in an FC you will need at least 300 engine HP. This amount of power is more easily and reliably achieved by later model engines. It can be achieved and exceeded by a red, but at what cost to reliability and useability?

Cheers,

Craig.

(P.S: its a 2.5L WRX, not a GTi. Six months delay on a GTi was just too long to wait.)

I still say Red 6  :P

i dont know about you guys, but id prefere the look of a fully detailed red 6 over a plastic fantastic v6. i know reliablity, power (haha) , bolt ons ,  blah blah blah but still......its only a v6. i have a mate who has owned his fc for 15 years, and he hs spent the entire time restoring it. in 96 there abouts, he decided to go for a vp v6. only weeks ago, he finally had it driving, and he wished he had never chosen that route, and he has continuesly druelled over our v8 fc. at the end of the day, you can have your v6 powered fc, and we will have our v8 powered fc, i know at the end of the day you would end up second best! 8)

 ???
Torque,
I didn't think it was V8 vs V6. I thought it was Straight 6 vs V6.
Man, now I am confused. Of course a V8 will go better than a V6. But it will go a damn sight better than a inline 6 as well.

Rob J

WELL BUGGER ME
I was just thinkin about a power plant and i've caused a bloody storm. I spoke to my brother about it (he's a SAAB mechanic) and said he right off a turbo for me. But it got me thinking. i'd like a V6 not for power but for the smooth reliable quiete ride that it delivers (i wasn't chasing power) not to mention the fact its EFI. fuel is a bitch these days.

HOWEVER, the good brother he is has suggested I buy his redie off him with a reco 3 sp column box for what he bought it for so I can drive the car. finish the body properley then go on to fit a commodore diff, discs x4 rack, motor etc.

HAVING SAID THAT, the motor is reco done about 2000 clicks 186 with yella terra head lumpy cam mandrel bent extractors, 350 holley, bored out, painted up neatly red for 600 bucks (what he bought it for) and motor & box fitted for couple bottles of bourbon.
Still gotta get the old girl painted up first. Dont want any motor i choose scratchin that new white engine bay.

I dont care if its a slug or an 11sec weapon.
ALL I WANT IS SMOOTH CRUISER       GOD BLESS THE FC

Sorry craig, I just felt like stirring the soup a bit.
I have read on other forums related to motor racing that the reasons people are still playing with reds are becuase they have been developing the thing for 40 years and also becuase they like the challenge of making a old basic Australian motor go 5 or 6 times harder than it should.
Anyone can get in a new ferarri and go fast on a track but you need to use your head to get around it quick with a old 6 cyl taxi motor, thats were the fun starts I guess.
Dont forget that with a efi v6 you are going over the limit of around 214 CI set by the rta meaning you need to do as much to the car for a engineers certificate as if you were putting in a v8, I would also assume there is a bit more weight here.
Also, and this is why I have used a red block, you need to run all the pollution control fitted in the mid nineties witch can be limiting when you are hotting it up and trying to stay legal, really even the pod filter you see on most v6 conversions is illegal on a late model motor and one thing even the dumbest copper will spot straight away.
Just wondering, can you really get the v6 to rev like a red 6?
and how reliable would a 300kw stock supercharged v6 be? Ive heard that a stock 3.8 v6 with even 6 psi becomes unreliable, runs hot and detonates bad
Craig Slightly worked is a loosely used term, if it means youve done a bit but you have no forged pistons, no nitrous, a factory made holden crank, a holden made cast iron head and even a holden dizzy then my motor is slightly worked.
Then again some guys wack on some extractors and a holley and they have a fully worked motor
I had a VR V6 and it pulled well but was annoying to drive at high revs, the thing felt like it was going to blow up so I never drove it anything like how I drove my FC.
Although reds are way out of production they still keep getting faster and faster, an example is guys like Joe Zullo and Norm McCormack running in the sevens with 202's trying to get under the holden 6 record of 7.7. Has a v6 ever done this?, thats gotta be getting close to making the old holden 6 one of the fastest 6's in the world.
Any way my guess is you dont really want to set land speed records, you just want something cool to cruise around in, if you can get a red motor that you know is good and already has some work done then I would get it.
it cost around $1500 to get a head done up now so if it has a good head on it already you have saved a bit..
Hey craig, how new is you subaru, compared to a FC they are now big heavy tanks at around 250 kg heavier than a FC with a turbo or supercharged red motor.
there are some pretty wild VL turbo's starting to get around that without doubt are putting out way more than the stock 150kw, one drove past work the other day fish tailing in 3rd gear.

Leon,

Interesting post. I am amazed and very interested about the 1/4 time of that red, is it in a rail? And can you tell us a bit about the mods it has?

Like I said before, I'll be cheering louder than anyone else when your wagon screams up the track with a blown red motor  ;D

To do the minimal red motor RTA mods required may be a  mistake though - if you are going to get 300HP out of a red then you should still have to improve the chassis/braking/handling to cope with the extra power.

What sort of power figure are you looking for? When I used the ET calculator I used a weight of 2860 lbs (1300kgs) which I thought was about right for an FC wagon with your type of mods. I think if anything I would be slightly low?

Anyway, inputting that weight with a desired ET of 13 seconds gives 328.4HP. And that would be with ideal track and traction conditions, and you would need to add reaction time I suppose? So you possibly need 350HP to get a 13 out of your FC wagon. Does that sound right?

You can try it for yourself here http://www.web-cars.com/math/qtr_mile.html

Good luck with it, like many others I have been watching your wagon rebuild in amazement and can't wait to see it on the road again.

Cheers,

Craig.

P.S. Sorry for the thread hijack :P

How many horses (or newton-metres FTM) are there in the look?  C'mon...

BTW, the link to Joe Zullo's Holden 6 is http://www.jzedholden6.com.au

The record it holds (according to the site) is 7.708 @ 168mph, at Willowbank in 2003.

cheers
RET

Hi.
If you are worried about detailing, have a look at this VN V6 a mate of mine is putting in his EK Wagon. You think that looks plastic? I think it looks Cooooooooooooooooool 8) 8)

http://www.geocities.com/rawls57/enginebig.html

Rob J

Thanks RET, interesting heads and other components for your red six on that site!!!

There is hope for Darcy and Leon yet  ;D

Here is a pic of the engine, might get a bit hot under the bonnet, and use a bit of a fuel, but hey who cares if you can get 600 HP out of it.

(http://tinypic.com/k0jcpv.jpg)

Using the ET calculator you could safely chuck this in your FC and get a very high 10 second pass, that's if you added a 4 link and some seriously sticky tyres to get the power down.

And a quick search shows that a mid 6 second pass has been made with a six cylinder, not a red six, but a six all the same. http://www.titanmotorsports.com/

Searching also shows that a full bodied supercharged V6 VN has travelled down the quarter in the high 11's, with a reputed 320HP at the wheels. thats about 450HP at the engine, and would push an FC to about the same time. VN's are a reasonably light car, about 1350kgs.

Cheers,

Craig.

Craig


are you sure that calculator works correctly? i never knew a fc sedan that weighed 1050 kg's with 587 hp would pull 7.6 on the 1/4 ??

(http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y80/pro_058fc_350/hp.jpg)

rob,
     yeh, yeh, iit looks ok i guess ;D ;D :P

Darcy,

1050kgs is equal to 2134 pounds, they're sort of like Kilos, but there's more of them ;-)

Here's the proper result.

Car weight:       2314 lbs.
Horsepower:       587 hp
Configuration:       Rear Wheel Drive
Results
Quarter Mile Acceleration:       9.9781 seconds.
Terminal speed:       148.1346 mph.

Cheers,

Craig.

Is the efi v6 as smooth as a grey, I went drom a VR to a VK and the vk didnt have the same torque but strangely was way smoother than the VR, if you dont believe me, compare the two yourself, vr offcourse revs lower on the freeway with its 4 speed, both used the same fuel to get to work each week but the vr was heavier, also, if ya's dont think a VN is heavy, try comparing its weight to a FC.

As far as I know the car doing 7.7 has a 202 block, 202 crank, bmw conrods, ACL race series pistons and I think a further developed Duggan head wich he now sells as JZed heads.
Aparently the car is still in needs of a bit of sorting out.
Norm Mcormack was in the engine shop one of the days I went in, from memory he is down to 7.9 seconds, we saw him run at the nostalgia drags.
yes that little supercharger on Joes car should easily fit uner the bonnett with a carb like a holley 4 bbl, just need to relocate the battery.
I dont think you can use the BMW rods with the supercharger on pump fuel as they are longer and wont let you get the cr down as far.
Joe is now selling a forged piston/ conrod , maybe he will put some to use in his car.