FE-FC Holden Discussion Forum

Ive been having trouble with a commodore VK black motor fuel injected, Its surging pretty dramatically - extreme retarded timing to extremely advanced timing or atleast this is what it seems like and Im having a little trouble pin pointing the weak spot.

Possibly it could also be fuel starvation due to the symptoms .It will need my foot flat to the floor to keep it running and will stall under mild load on hills etc, and instantly it leans itself out and drops rubber pinging its head off.

So far today for good measure I replaced the plugs ,Condensor ,distributor cap ,Rotor button ,Filled the tank and added a bottle of metho.
Bled the fuel rail.
Cleaned the throttle body.
checked all vacume lines and any loose wiring and also the connections to any sensors.
If these have crank angle sensors Id almost lay money down that its the culprit but i dont beleive they do .

Any ideas ?

Hi Harko,
Have you checked the fuel pump pressure and fuel filter?
Regards ACE  8)
p.s. What Condensor ???

Havent checked the pressure with a meter Ace but I have felt the line by hand and felt the pump , Ahhh yep :) working hehe.
I havent taken a car to a mechanic for about 4 years and pride myself on how many $$$ Ive saved over the years ,BUT I gave in .
Mechanic explained to me that the airflow meter is similar to a slot car control trigger how it has an arm that slides over a range of movement , And when part of the range wears out it causes this .
He laid money on it ! Probably mine !
I'll pick up one tomorrow and see if it works.

Ace you know that condensor capacitor suppressor thingo along side the points .

hey harko, have you had a look at the coil, i had a similar sounding problem many years ago. after several so called experts looking over and tuning it it still persisted, until it stalled one day in the main street of tamworth and wouldnt start. a quick trip to Kmart, a new coil and whammy all was well. ;D

it happened a while ago to a mate aswell his mechanic rebuilt his fuel pump, nothing, rebuilt carby, ran well for a week then died late one night. i suggested the coil. turned out to be a $6.00 condensor.
just a thought.
dean

Quote "He laid money on it ! Probably mine ! " unquote
Lucky it was a mate.


And that wasnt the problem anywayz ...
Smithy I have a hunch that its the dizzy because there seems to be alot of slack up and down (if anyone knows anything about electronic distributors) but Ill change the coil first thing in the morning and keep my fingers crossed ,Can you too :) ,Im going through withdrawals and need to drive it again.


Heres a tip for saving money ,When pricing a VK airflow meter I rang all wrecking yards in Wollongong and about 25 in Sydney - The first call I made local had one for $100 ,the only other I could find was in western Sydney for $45 so I rang the local back and scored it at half price for $50 ,Someones gotta keep em honest.

Latest update is that the Air Flow Sensor didnt turn out to be the problem ,So I bought a new coil (Thanks for helping out Smithy ) but that wasnt it either  ???
By now I was thinking something in the distributor was shorting out somehow so I wipped it out .
Turns out I need a new RELUCTOR ,Now this is not in my book of knowledge either and it also turns out that Holden no longer stock them ,Nor do 6 other local businesses but I did find one in Victoria who would happily supply me one for ??? $80 ???.
A complete distributor sounded like a more viable option and after ringing about 7 wreckers it seems they are like rocking horse shite aswell.
So I rang a few mates and was given one for nothing !
You gotta love your mates huh - always underated and rarely praised but always there when a favour is needed.

So with a bit of sparkle and luck Ill be cruising the streets first thing tomorrow.

Now Im just cheesed off .

I was going to say, I can give you one for a can of woodstock, but you got a much better deal, I have a liife time supply of these things.
If anyone else needs one I have them for trade of a can of bourbon and cola, they dont have caps so it still might be cheaper to get on of ebay with a cap and coil if you didnt already have one.

I'll take you up on that leon because I may be silly but Ive got a complete setup to go in the blue wagon but missing a distributor.

If you think you will see Alex / customfc please pass it on to him ,I will be seeing him soon.and I can send back the bourbon.


Can anyone help who has knowledge on injected VK motors ?

I dont know if I will be at the next meeting as my wife now works on tuesdays and the meetings arent a real fun place to look after 3 crazy kids, ben wall and craig wilson drop in from time to time so I might get them to pass it to Alex, otherwise if you or jonesy are in the area you can arrange to pick one out of the hei pile.

Harko

I’d get a hold of the bloke that originally did the conversion in your FC and lynch him, it’s the best therapy for this kind of problem.

Chuck  ;)

Harko,

I've heard about that bloke - dodgy as anything.

Although I bet the floorcoverings in that car are good. He does know his "jute" work.

Ha ha ,Had a good laugh at that comment ,Its not often enough we see your sense of humour online.
And besides if he lived closer I would have by now hehe.

Last update is I swapped the computer and silicone sprayed the terminals on the computer and airflow meter and still no bloody go !.

Atleast Im learning as i go but the frustrating thing is Ill forget it in a week or two.

Next update when the sparky comes back and with some stroke of god given good luck it'll be moveable again.

This photo is extremely fitting .
Totaly set up not long before it became oh so real  :-/

(http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y187/Harko/Sargepics5.jpg)

while on the subject of 202 efi, does any one know if the battery can fit in the engine bay with the efi manifold?

hi harko
have u got a pic of the efi wiring if not i have?
pm with a email and its yours
cheers

Harko

All this is from memory and by no means gospel, its just the steps that I would go through to get the thing running.  Getting back to basics, you only need three things to make a motor run, compression, fuel and spark.

Compression: I’m sure that you would know all about it if there was a problem here but running a compression tester over each cylinder can satisfy you of the motors general condition at least.  Check the condition of the plugs but from what you say you have just replaced these, double check that you have bought the correct plugs for that particular motor (i.e. plug length and heat range).  Check for inlet manifold leaks, crank it and listen for sucking noises, do a sight and feel test of the entire manifold.  Sight and fell test all the motors vacuum hoses, check for a perished or cracked line.

Fuel: It sounds as though you already have this sussed although it can be useful to put a fuel pressure gauge up near the fuel rail, it is not uncommon for a pump in one of these to fail or partly fail (feel the pump it should whir when the ignition is in the run position).  Also, if you get someone to crank the motor you can put a finger on each injector and you should be able to feel the click as it pulses (opens/closes).  Also, look at the throttle body, when you operate the throttle, you should feel the micro switch of the Throttle Position Sensor (TPS) open as soon as you start to crack the throttle, and you can confirm this by testing the TPS with a multimeter.  Make sure that there is plenty of fuel in the tank (some people have been known to run out miles from anywhere in a gas dedicated car towing a car trailer, Tuesday was not fun).  There could also be a blockage in the line, remove the return line from the fuel rail and place a length of fuel line over the steel fitting and place the other end in a 2L clean and clear drink bottle, crank the engine and check the fuel flow rate.  Blow into the rubber return line and listen for bubbles in the tank to ensure that the return line is not blocked.  If not already done, replace the fuel filter in case it has blocked.  Check the fuse to the fuel pump, from memory these are 7.5A and have a tendency to heat up and melt the fuse holder, I have had that problem a couple of times before.

Spark: I’m sure you know all this but pull the distributor cap and crank the engine to confirm that the timing gear is not stripped.  If this is fine, pull back a boot from one of the high tension leads and hold near the block, but keep yourself insulated from the end, you should get a nice healthy blue spark when the end is held 6-10mm from the block.  If you have replaced the dizzy, confirm its location relevant to TDC on No. 1 cylinder, it may be 180 degrees out of phase.  Static time the motor setting the dizzy up at about 6-8 degrees BTDC that should be enough to get it running.  Check the dizzy cap for cracks and the condition of the high tension leads, ensure that there is a good contact between the rotor button and the centre pin of the cap (once again you have just replaced these but check check again).

However, with EFI systems there are some other areas to consider:

EFI Sensors: The VK EFI has very few sensors and is as basic as they come.  The only sensors are the TPS, Air Flow Meter and Coolant Temperature Sensor (CTS).  You have already replaced the Air Flow Meter so that can be ruled out and I have explained how to check the TPS above.  It is unlikely to be the CTS as this will affect the performance of the motor when it warms up, it wont prevent it from starting and idling fine.

Electrical system: Failing everything else, I would check the engine loom for continuity.  This is pretty easy, but you do need a copy of the EFI schematical diagram, if you smile nicely at the service desk at your local Holden dealer they might let you photocopy the relevant page from their service manual otherwise a decent auto sparkie will do the same.  Grab a multimeter, disconnect the ECU plug and start probing out each of the plugs on the harness.  The individual pins on the ECU plug are numbered and using the schematic it is really easy to see which plug each pin relates to.

While you are at it, you may as well check each of the harness plugs for signs of damage or corrosion, corrosion build-up inside a plug from water ingress will soon stop you in your tracks.

There is a fuse (15A) between the run position on the ignition switch and the Control Relay, check its condition, it may not be incorporated into the main fuse panel for this car.

As far as I know, this car has had a couple of different car alarms installed along with a couple of other gadgets and gizmos that I am not familiar with.  In other words, the engine loom might have been butchered a bit and this I can’t help with.

Component failure: There are three components that could fail:
•      There are two fusible links in the system, one is between the battery and the ignition switch and the other is between the battery and pin 30 on the control relay.  If you have power to the ignition switch and that pin then you can rule out the fusible links.
•      There is a control relay, this relay is usually much larger than a standard EFI relay and can be identified by the large diameter orange white and violet wires (together with some other coloured wires going into it).  It might be easiest to just replace this relay, you can probably get one from the wreckers for next to nothing.
•      ECU – these can fail from time to time and I don’t have a method of testing these other than trying to get a loan of one and plugging it in to see how it goes, just don’t hot swap one otherwise you run the risk of cooking its internal components, in other words ensure that power is isolated from the system as a safety precaution.

Earth connections: These are one of the biggest problems with these systems.  They are extremely dependant on good earths.  In that car there should be a large stainless bolt in the dash with a wingnut, This is the common earth point.  Make sure that no corrosion has formed about the base of this bolt and that the wingnut is tight, it may be a good idea to remove each of the terminals and clean, also try a resistivity test of the bolt itself.  Check that pins 5, 13 & 25 on the ECU plug are earthed properly.

Voltage: Check the battery voltage is not low, even try a different battery, also check the voltage across the ballast resistor on the coil to make sure it is still working fine.

If all this fails yank out the black EFI and replace it with a grey, can’t kill em with a stick they say.

Hope this helps - Chuck

Harko,

Remember the movie, "The Big Steal" where the car dealer swaps the good engine in the green Jaguar with the dud one in the mustard car, and then the green car gets delivered to the purchaser with the dud motor...

Chuck may seem like a sanitised version of Richie Cunningham, but there's always a dark side.

Just a theory... ;D

..and Richie's partner in crime was somebody called Potsy right?
:P

Ed,

I think you mean Fonzie. >:(

YeeeeeeHaaaaa Its running !!!!!!!!!!


Thanks so very much Ritchie ahh ahh Chuck and Potsy ,Fonzie and Lesiure suit lLarry (sparky)
My mates classic line to Chuck was "With your brains and my talent we make a great team" hehe

Heres a pun for you mate .
I rang Chuck this afternoon for some advice and Id say he spent about an hour on the phone with us nutting out the gremlin ,But it seemed like hours because you have no idea how dark i was on the whole problem.
I was at the end of my tether and was watching my hair fall out all over the place so without your invaluable advice and the free help of another good mate I was thinking petrol and lighter.
No skin off Chucks nose infact he was ready to make the close to two hour trip to help and even offered to rewire the whole efi system - I mean come on ! where do you find people like that ? apart from the centre of Sydey it just happens to be right here on this forum (Thank you RET)
Ive gotten to know quite a few on here and the spirit amongst us Holden lovers never ceases to amaze me ...

So the whole problem worked out to be a dud wire that linked the computer, a main relay and the coil to provide a pulsating power supply ,Jeeesh sounds so simple .
And Chuck knows this stuff better than he knows himself Im sure ,As you have read.

So Chuck do think I should put this second EFI setup I have here onto the wagon ? Im just not sure anymore hehe.

Thanks very much mate next time we catch up at an event or here at home dont expect youll be driving afterwoods , It'll be my shout and Im not scared to get you well an truly intoxicated .

Great to hear you solved the problem.
Good work Chuck.
Regards
Alex

I was just rereading my whole dilema here and in the first post I had written the symptoms and what I thought could be the cause .
Seems to advance and retard itself - was the reluctor which is the almost star shaped centre peice of the distributor that throws out spark , It had worn itself loose and was doing exactly what  I had described.
2nd prob was the wiring for the pulse to the injectors - I described it as though it seemed to be starving of fuel.

Maybe I should become a doctor ???

What are the symptoms son ?
just a runny nose Doc !
I think we are gonna have to amputate a couple inches out of ya legs son.        hee    heeeeee hee

Harko your not in Queensland are you!!!!!

Ahhh Not sure if your taking the piss hehe but nah im in Wollongong.

hey harko, well done in sorting out the dramas, you gotta be happy now ;D. just a quick question, apart from the obvious modifications like return fuel lines and wiring what modifications to the firewall etc are needed to fit the EFI manifold into the FC. as my car is still freshly painted i am a bit hesitant in hacking into the engine bay :-/ :-/. is there any chance you could post some pics or send them to me?

thanks
dean

hey harko

pics woul;d be great if you could take some or if you already have some.

we were considering doing a simular conversion but were not to sure about ow much room the efi manifold left

cheers
torque

Hey Smithy and Torque this photo is looking almost directly down the firewall and the gap is about 10 - 15 mm with the firewall mods.
Chuck on the forum built this car so it may be worth sending him a PM if this doesnt give you the info you need.
My guess is the extra room may be needed for removal etc

Hey harko, does that have a battery in its origional spot?
I have done a simular modification to my firewall but my engine is away for machining, balancing, O rings etc so I cant do a trial fit, manifold is also away for match porting so I had to guess.
Do you have any pics from other angles?

No Leon the battery has been moved to the boot ,
I dont have the car with me right now so I'll check when I can  but off hand Id say theres not room for it in the bay.
There should be enough room under the cargo area in the van though mate .
While its on its side check some measurements and if it wont fit you could fold up a batt box to fit it.