FE-FC Holden Discussion Forum

I'm after some info on where I might be able to get some hardened valve seats for my grey motor and also some parts or kits to rebuild it as well.

Also does anyone know why they are phasing out LRP I knew it was gonna happen just don't know why. Is it more a case of phasing out older cars.

Now I have to rebuild the whole motor cause if I take the head off I'm scared the bottom end is gonna shoot through after going strong for 42 yrs. I think the odometer clock has been around once or twice too. Not bad huh? Go holden!

Cheers
Gareth

IF you don't want to pull the engine apart, then just run premium unleaded and use an additive.  It will take a hell of a lot of miles to stuff the valve seats, and when they do wear out,.... then.... pull off the head and put in stainless seats.  
A holden 6 head should be around the $300 mark to fit stainless seats from an engine shop, and you only have to do the bottom end if you feel it needs it.
Then maybe drop in a 5.7 unleaded chevvy instead!!

regards  Earlee

Hardened valve seats run to about $400 last time I looked into it, it was a bit over $30/valve.  There is also an in-line fuel solution called FuelStar that lasts as close to forever as makes no odds, but it costs about the same as getting the head done.  Those who have this kit have been happy with it.

Valve-master or flash-lube are the least intrusive solutions.  My advice is:
- don't rebuild a motor without getting the valve seats done
- don't take the head off until you need to pull the motor down.

In the meantime, use an additive.  If originality/authenticity is important to you, then add the stuff to the fuel as you fill up.  If keeping the engine bay looking stock is less important, then I would suggest looking into the Flashlube kit (see pic).  This feeds the additive into the fuel via the PCV line, so you don't have to worry about it with every fill.  You just top the bottle in the engine bay up from time to time, when you check the other fluids.

The reason why LRP has been discontinued can be found in this article here ($2).  (The attached photo is one that was taken for that article but not used, of my other FE's engine bay).

cheers
RET

The kit shown in Rets photo,is what most LPG installers use,plenty of them around second hand and easy to install as they are just an adjustable drip feed set up.last one i saw new was only around the $100 mark anyway.
cheers Nick

just as a matter of interest,i have done over 3000 miles in my FE this year running it on unleaded with no additives and its going better now than when i first started driving it.as the grey is low compression it behaves very well with unleaded.there is actually a groundswell of people who say the burned out valves from unleaded fuel is a fallacy created by car dealers and oil companies,as a scare tactic in the very early stages of unleaded.
dont know about that but my HR has done over 34000 miles on unleaded with untouched motor,

Whilst we are talking about fuel and stuff, thought I might part some of my ill found wisdom upon you...if you are interested.

( just my opinion ).....I was advised by Minicraft in WA to run Ultimate 98 in my rebuilt ( no hardened seats ) 998 mini Cooper.   I was also told to run Ultimate 98 in my Ducati 900 SS ( 93 model ), as this is the highest octane fuel you can buy at the pump.   Ultimate 98 is a BOP brand, or SHELL Ultra ect ect.

Anyway, back when our cars were made, the SUPER fuel was close to around 100 octane unlike todays Unleaded which is only 91 octane.   Premium is 95 Octane, and Ultimate is as the name suggests....98 octane.

Anwyay, I took this advice not knowing any difference, and I can honestly say DON"T TOUCH THE FLAMIN STUFF !

It is the worst thing you can do.....both the Cooper and the Ducati, used to stutter a bit under acceleration...was never smoothe running, and could never work it out...until a ducati mechanic told me to switch to plain old Unleaded.    Well....from the minute I filled the tank of my Ducati with plain old  91 octane unleaded..it was a different beast.....smoothe....more powerful, just awsome !

Apparantly although the fuel is a higher octane, for some reason, Ultimate burns black.........well derr.....but I mean sooty black, more so than unleaded.   What happens, is when it fires, and burns to a black sooty residue, it fould up your plugs in no time at all......fouled plugs=less power, uneven running ect ect.

So if you are running Ultimate and your car is not as it should be...just try plain old unleaded...or premium if you want to spend the extra.

I also agree with all comments made about seats and head work and aftermarket lubricant kits.

Just had my head serviced, cleaned, machined, new stainless seats, and valve guides ect ect on my red 202..cost me $550 all up.

Re the Flashlube Valve-Saver kit, this was $85 fitted (including full 500ml bottle), meant to mention that ::)

As far as Le Grande Conspiracy is concerned, this article here ($2) explains Octane ratings, why higher doesn't necessarily equal better (and in fact means the opposite of what most people presume!), and the long-term effect of not using an AVSR (anti-valve seat recession) additive in older motors.

For what it's worth, once you have sorted some form of valve protection, the following fuels are recommended:

Grey: ULP
Red: PULP or equivalent

Octane levels of ULP and the old "Standard" fuel are quite similar.

cheers
RET

Thanks for the info..

I'm leaning towards pulling out the motor and giving it a full rebuild including the head. As she is getting a close to rebuild stage(ie compression starting to fade, 40 odd years without being touched) although I have no doubt it would last a bit longer.

I have a local engine shop that will machine the head and block for me but they aren't sure about the grey motor heads and block. used to dealing with reds, blues, etc. So they want me to source all parts for the rebuild in particular the valve seats. Any ideas where I can get them and other grey motor parts.

Also what are common mild upgrades to the grey that are worth doing. I've heard putting a red motor head and crank can be done, is it worth bothering. Any info and advice on the rebuild would be greatly appreciated.

Cheers
Gareth

BM Higginbottom / GEM offer a well-priced reco service that includes the hardened valve seats, with a 100,000k / 3 year warranty.  They can do your motor or an exchange one, depending on what you want done and availability.  You can even buy a pret-a-porter grey motor from your local Holden dealer (who source them from GEM I believe). I'd look into the price of these services before starting an escapade like that with your local machine shop.  Alternatively, shop around places that do heads as a specialty.  What part of the world are you in?  Someone here might be able to make a recommendation for you.

As far as the red motor component transplant, I've never seen either of those mods done.  The crank and head would both be too long, surely?!  

Back in the day of speedway grey motors, all manner of things used to get done, like Repco and Dunstan heads, reboring to silly sizes and whatever.  There is a crank from something else (English make I think?) that does fit with a bit of work to produce a stroker, but really, you're talking serious bespoke engineering (ie $) there.

I'd be thinking mild cam and extractors first, personally. Or a 149 red transplant.

cheers
RET

Ret,

I believe that the crank is a Bedford crank, and can be used with Zephyr pistons to produce a displacement in the vicinity of 160 ci.

Hi Guys.
Hadn't heard of the Bedford crank before, but I would love to know more.
The best way to go, is a Vauxhall Steel crank & Main cap bridges. These puppies make the bottom end unbreakable. BUT, it isn't just a matter of bunging the crank in. The bores need to be re-aligned. This costs a fat wad of cash (Looking at $4,000 or so). Then you need all the extra goodies to make it worthwhile. But after that, it will flog the meatiest Red there is.....NO PROBLEMS!!!
A mate (Robbie 1) & I (Robbie 2) are in the process of building a Supercharged Grey motor to go into his JWF Italia 60's kit car. The Norman is off my Copcar & we will be trying all sorts of mods etc & will keep a record of our results (Well, he will be doing all the building, he is using my Norman so I will be keeping all the results to share here).
Should be heaps of fun.
The car hopefully will be ready for the "Return to Longford" weekend in TAS.
(His car usually runs a Vauxhall steel cranked Grey)

Rob J

Hi Rob
Whats the deal with your COP car. Do not tell us all it has been put on the back burner for yet another project.

just walked into servo this arvo and there was a box full of flash lube kits for $79.95 on shelf,cheap insurance id say.

Hi Jim.
No way, Mate. I sold the HG wagon, so now the Copcar is at my house. Not far to walk to work on it now. Interior is done, engine is nearly finished & front guards are last on the list of finishing. Car will probablly be half flat black until I save some more $$$ & the Norman won't be under the bonnet while I am playing with the racer, but it will  be back there at some stage.
I will get photos when it is done.
Not long now.............
Rob J

Those flash lube kits are a lot more expensive than what Ive been paying!- I paid $29 for mine. The retail on them was about $45. This was from Thompsons spare parts  which is now owned by Coventry. Maybe the prices on these have escalated  since the fuel scare.......I mean how much is a plastic bottle  with a needle and seat with  a small rubber hose attached to it really worth? Even comes with a fancy wire bracket..... I suspect it would not cost that much to produce  but compared to a hardened headjob  the vendors must reckon they can push the price up a bit and get away with it.  If I can walk in off the street and buy one for $29 trade then somethings amiss.
Cheers streetneat

I have a flash lube kit on my Landcruiser and that fancy wire bracket - same one as on my push bike to hold the water bottle ;)

Hi Again, Guys.
We had our club meeting the other nigght & there was a fella there for "ROIL" oil additives. He showed us all these fancy tests & results that proved this stuff actually conditioned the metal & reduced friction by heaps. The QLD Uni did independent tests & it showed this stuff was shite hot, with the right oil. I am yet to try it, but it seems to be the bees knees.

As for the flash lube ( Sorry for hijacking the thread earlier :-[), I use PULP & Flash lube in all my old cars. They seem to go fine. There is a guy in our club who is running one of those "FuelStar" set ups in his Red powered FC. It has made a hell of a difference, stopped pinging & seems to be doing the job nicely, apart from the fact it gets vapour locked every so often.  We think this is because it is mounted just before the carbiy, right above the exhaust manifold & on a hot day it gets very, very warm. But that is where the distributor fitted it & said it had to go. Who knows? The other side of the coin, is it cost him a bit over $300. Not much more for the stainless seats & valves :-/

Goodluck
Rob J

Hi Guyzzz
    I've been using ULP and Flash Lube in the "Yella Beast" recently (very technical , suirt in the fuel tank type) and seems to be running same as before . Went in the local street parade today and the old girl didn't miss a beat, even at a walking pace ....   (except boiled at the end , very hot day  :-[ )

   Norm  :)

My bikes had HUGE problems on SHELL OPTIMAX.. this stuff doesnt mix with bike plugs.. fouled 2 sets of Iridium plugs @ 16 bucks a plug its cheaper to avoid optimax.

G'day guys,

I fitted a "Fuel Star" to my Red FC. Fitted in to the pax side wheel arch wall. Did all the stuff that cam with the blurb, and it appears to have done the trick. Stopped the pingging, running a high comp head, and the engine appears to be a lot better of. Cost about $400 for the kit and is real easy to fit. Don't know about the exhaust valves but time will tell.

Grah.

To echo RETs comments, greys were designed to run on standard fuel and should run fine on normal ULP as long as upper cylinder lubricant or hardened valve seats are used. The octane rating of Standard was only 79 until 1963 (the year the greys were phased out- coincidence?), was then increased to 85 and some later time to 92. The 91 octane rating of ULP is actually a fair bit higher than 'Standard' fuel sold in the 50s. This means that it will burn slower and for optimum performance you can advance timing a bit more than the original recommended settings. Maybe this slower burning would explain some of the problems with Optimax mentioned elswhere in this thread.

Dave  

I've heard about these fuel star set ups has any one been using one for a fair while? How does it go? Does it stop valve seat recession?   Spend $400 on the head and get seats done or $400 on a fuel star, like to know more about it if anybody knows.
 4hammers, have you heard of anybody useing mitsubishi E300 con rods in a grey, bring rod ratio from1.79:1 to about 1.9:1, but might have to get custom pistons. Will the Vauxhall main caps fit the standard grey crank?
Cheers Tumbles

Hi Tumbles.
No, I haven't heard of that, but it may be possible. Surely after years of Jap motors, one has something that can be used in a Grey. The fellas I know are always looking for ways to improve the Grey.
As for the Vauxhall caps, that is a negative. They don't fit. You have to re-align the standard caps (Not to mention the pistons) to fit the Vauxhall crank. Robbie went through 5 blocks until he found one that worked. Only to find a month or so later, one of the bores started seaping water. He got it resleeved.

Rob J

My Dad's FC (179HP) has one of these FuelStar set-ups on it, and he's been pretty happy with it.  I'm not sure how many miles he's done in the last 3 or 4 years since it was fitted, so it may not have done enough to exhibit valve seat recession anyway.  But those things are guaranteed for some ridiculous number of miles - a couple of hundred thousand or something.

Anyway, the way I see it, the FuelStar kit has these pros and cons:

Pros:
- doesn't require any engine dismantling
- is reasonably portable (ie you spend $400 on getting a head done, that's a $400 investment in that unit that you can't recover if the head cracks later on.  You can also move the kit from one car to another.)
- doesn't require maintenance or topping up.

Cons:
- obvious modification in the engine bay (it has to be mounted there because it requires the engine vibration to function)
- relatively expensive compared to FlashLube/Valvemaster for cars that get infrequent use (ie $400 would buy enough FlashLube for over 30,000 litres of petrol, or 6,700 gallons or 750 tanks full)

Hope that helps.  Here are some other Useful Links:
MotorMouth on FuelStar ($2).
FlashLube info ($2)

cheers
RET

  Thanks for that Ret, I reakon that it might be worth a bash, it's just strange that something that is supposed to be so good isn't seen all that often, were flash lube ect are an every day thing.
 The link to the fuelstar page didn't work ???
Rob. J that crank sounds like a hell of a lot of mucking around, sounds like it would almost be cheaper to have a crank made up from scratch :-/  I have heard around the traps that you can use a Jag vibration damper on the grey, any thoughts on that?
Cheers Tumbles

I don't know if this is the most recent discussion on the topic but what do people think about FlashLube & FuelStar these days?
It's harder to find much about FuelStar now - perhaps the initial outlay.
(http://i1276.photobucket.com/albums/y472/davidbolton1/s-l200_zpscmulblb5.jpg) ($2)