FE-FC Holden Discussion Forum

After hours of searching i found these for those swapping spindles. Got a headache reading about KPI and just wanted proof for myself

In order HG HQ HR

Luke(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180123/b5ed713f578e0d1f7387486316413310.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180123/abade04131973fb7dbe73037a1d2e6f3.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180123/0f66915713e0609e8a1ee6ca6666ddce.jpg)

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Then in order HR HG HQ(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180123/c09b2ab54374a94bade727539c5b632c.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180123/821d66dbbb2648d917c165b3564b5b57.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180123/11286582309ea2613a8e7da3b8d52786.jpg)

So I wanted to know what the angle of the axel was in relation to the straight line through the center of the upper and lower attachment bolts.
This is for camber of differing spindles.
I found that the HR and HG were the same at about 97° where as the HQ came up at 94°.
So it would appear that HR through to HG spindles should not change the camber but a HQ spindle will create a higher negitave camber thus where the KPI issue may come in to play for wheel alignment.

Any thoughts? Happy to be wrong as i am no expert.(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180123/e40a92fcb3206262a6e6fdc1e62a6e48.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180123/b125cda2599bda30181c5e797cb46ef0.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180123/9112481e3ce039cb5b48b56aff54ab6d.jpg)

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Oh and as a visual representation here is 3° difference over 40cm

As you can imagine this will be a big change to your wheels(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180123/fa02b8e5b2d2dcd036b366a9bd7d88bc.jpg)

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Whealy all three diagrams appear to be marked 7.5 degrees. Am I missing something? You should not rely on scaling dimensions from drawings.
Cheers
Clay


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I read:
HG as 7 degrees 31seconds (give or take 10 seconds),
HQ as 7 degrees 30seconds (give or take 10 seconds), and
HR as 7 degrees 30seconds (give or take 10 seconds).

So HG is the odd one out with a proofteenth more KPI, though the 1-second poofteenth is within the tolerance (10 seconds) of the other KPIs (i.e. the KPIs are pretty much the same).

Cheers,
Harv

I have read you can not use other spindles on HR due to the camber being different. Just trying to find some truth to that. I agree that the angle noted is the same but if you look at the vertical lines going to the back of the spindle (Not the one going through the holes) there are slight difference and i think thats where the andles are taken. Not sure if this has anything to do with it but that is why I tried measuring it myself to find any differences. I acknowledge your comment to not trust scale drawings. I have also overlayd the images and the conclusion of increasing camber is seen.

Once again happy to be wrong just trying to collate some decent information on spindle difference.

If there is no change to camber then Great! Then any spindle should be fine on any car

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Harv the difference is one minute while the tolerance is ten minutes (not seconds) in other words it is insignificant. Around 0.04mm over the roughly six inch length of stub axle. Beats me why the mech drafter would show this.

As to the reference line you could well be right Whealy


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Looks to me like the line through the back of spindle as you refer to it is 90 degrees to the axis of revolution in each case.

Read Harvs post properly and realise I was repeating what he had said. Sorry Harv.

Cheers
Clay


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HQ is not 90°
And the vertical line changes in refrence to the bolt hole line.
Anyway may have to agree to disagree on that one Clay.


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I’m only looking on my grubby phone through the coke bottle bottoms of glasses I’ve got with my cracked Jaffa eyes so your prolly right there Whealy. Just don’t get why they moved the goalposts. Ball joints same across the range?


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Nope, your correct - the values are in minutes, not seconds i.e.
HG as 7 degrees 31minutes (give or take 10 minutes),
HQ as 7 degrees 30minutes (give or take 10 minutes), and
HR as 7 degrees 30minutes (give or take 10 minutes).

Same argument though - they are all the same within tolerance.

Damn... degrees, minutes, seconds. It's been nearly thirty years since I really knew that stuff... my knowledge of geometry has long since been dissolved in ethanol  :D.

Cheers,
Harv

HG HQ And HR are all the same angle (HG and HQ are identical stub axles dimensionally). They can be interchanged without a problem. It's the Torana ones which have a different angle and should not be used on a HR front end.

Ken

Cheers Ken

So am i the only one who read about King Pin Inclination being an issue? All that i found was on forums and I know that there are many self proclaimed experts around so thats why i have been gathering this information.

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King pin inclination is the problem, but it's only on Torana stub axles.
You've virtually proved it yourself. The KPI angles are all the same on the stub axles you have drawings of. If you can find a Torana drawing you'll find it has a different angle.

Ken

Whealey I have run HR, HQ and CRS drop spindles on my Sedan and now have HR drum brake on my ute project and no problem with having wheel alignment done, the guys that do mine have never questioned what type I had or if there was an issue setting it up.

If I remember the good thing about HQ/HZ is they give you 20mm drop.

Regards
Neil

Ken,

I was beginning to have doubts.  I remember when a friend did a disc brake conversion on his EH, and used an HR front suspension with Torana discs, calipers and steering knuckles.  And it had way too much positive camber, until we found HR steering knuckles.

And when I set my HD X2 up with Torana discs, I used HD-HR steering knuckles instead of Torana ones.

Rob

To make it simple ,if you put torana stubs on a hr front end with hr upper control arms ,you will be spacing your upper inner control arm shaft to hell [where your wheel alignment is done] and your upper control arm will probably rub on your inner guard not to mention how hard it becomes to get spacers in there . You will see a lot of FX FJ's with a window cut in the inner guard for this purpose . If you were running 13x7 rims with standard offset you may find using torana stubs and advantage due to the offset at the upper ball joint giving you rim clearance but the downside is you will struggle to align . In short Ken is correct . 

Anyone tried running Torana upper control arm with Torana stub axle steering knuckle and HR lower control arm on HR front end? I don’t know if they can be made to fit but seems it could be a solution to gain rim clearance to the top ball joint as suggested I think by Haydn.
Cheers
Clay


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Clay,

Torana suspension components aren't compatible with HR.
It is possible (don't ask how I know) to use HT-HG upper control arms and shafts on an HR front suspension, though.

Rob

I guess that was the reply I was expecting, thanks Rob.


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I cant remember if possible [probably not ] to put HK lower control arms and shafts on HR with upper control arms and torana stubs . I don't know why you would . I just seem to remember HK being close visually .

Haydn,

The HK lower control arms are dimensionally similar to HR, but the devil's in the details.
HR lower control arms have the "tang" at the rear which act as "full lock stops" for the steering arms; on HK lower control arms they were deleted, and the HKTG steering arms have the "tang" on them instead.  In HRs the bump stops are fitted to the lower control arms, in HKs the bump stops are on the front crossmember.  I think that HK lower control arm shafts are bigger diameter than HR, on the obtuse-threaded bit that screws into the front crossmember.  HKs may have used the same lower control arm bushes as HRs.  And the HK lower control arms allow you to use front springs with bigger diameter spring wire than you can get away with on an HR (found this out the hard way when trying to fit lowered heavy-duty HKTG V8 front springs to my HD).

Upper control arms and shafts are the same for both HR and HK, I think.

Just dug up an LC Torana workshop manual.  The magic angle on the Torana steering knuckles is 9 degrees, zero minutes (cf 7 deg. 30 minutes for all the "full-size" Holdens).

Rob

Thanks for that Rob , I just remember that sometimes I would be preparing both model lower control arms at Rods Racks and remembered that they were close , but of course we would take the steering stops off as a matter of course and the bump stops would be removed before blasting . We quite often had to replace lower control arm shafts in cross members and so on . I also understand the shock and noise when you find you have put the wrong coils in your cross member. I guess I was just pondering ,if the Torana spindles sit the ball joints further away and therefore forces the control arm shaft away from the spring tower ,would it be possible to counteract this with a set of HK lower control arms .
   

Haydn,

I don't think so.  The effective length of all the king-pin lower control arms is 14.0", and I think the effective length of the HR lower control arms is 14.2" (go back a few years and someone did post a photo showing the difference between HD ball-joint and HR lower control arms).  I don't have access to an HR shop manual, and my HD manual only has data for the king-pin front suspension.  The effective length of HK lower control arms is 14.3"; so I don't reckon HK lower arms would be long enough so that you could use them on an HR front suspension with Torana steering knuckles.

Rob

Now I’m not sure of the distance between ball joint centres on any of these assemblies but assuming 200mm or about 8”, then 1.5 degrees for the difference in kpi between Torana and HD-HZ, then sin 1.5 x 8 = 0.2”

You have also widened your track by close to 0.4” as the stubs are near the bottom ball joint. So in theory HD top arm, torry upright and HR lower arm should achieve correct camber. You then need to increase rim offset by 0.2” to maintain factory plus 25mm track, assuming six inch rims. I think you have just lost the extra clearance to the top ball joint. Im sticking with the stock HR disc hardware.


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