FE-FC Holden Discussion Forum

Hi

Re the last fc produced in 1959, I would like to know what was the last chassis, engine or head built in Adelaide or destined for Adelaide before introduction of the next cars in 1960. Roughly how many days turnaround was it for an engine to be built then transported to Adelaide to be put in an Adelaide body? My head is 18 December which would make my fc one of the last by the time it was assembled and shipped etc. The 24th was Thursday so with 18th being a Friday, once cooled and assembled, must have been a last week in December car before the plant knocked off For Xmas.

Does anyone know of a gearbox number or head number chart? Or know if numbers started fresh for heads etc on fb?

The highest Adelaide 225 body number I have recorded is FE-225-19147A. This would be an end of December body, but body number is not absolutely sequential with build date.
Chassis number is the best measure of date because this number is sequential with build date.
Without knowing your chassis number it is impossible to get any closer than mid to late December.

I don't really understand what you are getting at with head and gearbox casting dates, there is no need for a register, they just record casting date and have no real relevance to build date.
I have no real idea how long it takes between casting date and finished vehicle. I am open to suggestions on this topic. I'm feeling that it could be weeks between the casting of an engine in Melbourne and it ending up in a finished car in Adelaide.
Ken

Not sure about the time line around FE/FC models, but the engine in our matching numbers HQ Sandman ute has a casting date Aug 73, compliance build date Oct 73, about 2 months between engine casting till vehicle build. Glenn

thanks Glenn,   any other examples?

On this one example this would seem to indicate that a head or gearbox cast on the 16th of Dec unlikely to be fitted in a car by the end of the year.

Ken

That is my point and being a Friday, I have no idea how possible it would be but it seems probable that a big batch of engines and gearboxes could have been fitted to most of the orders at the end of a run and later in the year orders could have been closer turnaround for a small number of cars to make the changeover to new model manageable. I know my dad was a production manager at a top furniture company for 20 years and they often worked in calendar years then closed down to change tooling or implement things in the line. They took orders on a more micro scale towards the end to time their break up. It just seems like too much of a coincidence that the head and gearbox would be within 2 days of each other to be a coincidence. I've posted on the fb forum site to see what early numbers for heads and gearboxes were. I can't find the chassis number Ken. There's too much crud buildup. Where should I look mate more specifically. There's no evidence the car has been pranged and to the guys helping me do spot welding and bending up for repairs who are very experienced with old stuff it looks surprisingly clean all over for what it was. I rubbed back the roof in the centre and the depression in the centre is deep where the taxi sign was on the roof, like it's had years or weight pressing down. Its not just paint depression as first thought. Ken, do you think I should remove this depression or keep it as original character or verification of the original fitment. I will be keeping all holes in the dash too regardless if I need them. I think that's important. Interestingly there's black paint below the front window but I rubbed back the rear qtr, flash, front roof etc and apart from the left doors being black when I got it in the same old crap black paint in each spot (like bonnet) it appears that the spots that were painted white (in a crappy acrylic but inside of door an orange 2k like paint) they were taken back to an under coat. No evidence of the dark original grey flash being present. Just saying out of interest.

The FC chassis number is on the drivers side skirt about half way along right next to where the wiring is clipped to the skirt.

Ken

Ok. Regardless of date do you think it would be very coincindental to buy a second hand g box and head, that close in dates if they weren't originally put on the same car?

The chassis number is definitely FC18495A. Keep in mind that although it doesn't appear to be a specially built taxi, it did appear that they all used the same colours when ordered and this particular company did stipulate they had to have the same red interior. I was told that by the guy who's still involved with taxi trucks. That's just for your useless info to a normal persons section lol if u were interested.

 Thanks Ken.

Given that Kens literature suggests that 'matching numbers' early Holdens don't exist, I'm curious as to why you're wanting to go to such painstaking detail, given that these details possibly weren't given a second thought on the production line, and parts were fitted as located?

Not a criticism Deano, I'm just curious.

Regards,

Josh.

Ok, checked the data with chassis number and I can confidently say that production date is between 15th and 17th of December. The body number and chassis number are in the correct sequence and definitely belong together. I have records of 5 cars with higher numbers than yours.

Re casting dates, i agree that it is likely that the head and gearbox would likely be from the same car. I think it would be very common to buy a head and gearbox from the one source and find that they have similar casting dates. If a car has its original gearbox and head (even though they may have had work done on them) then they most likely would be similar. But you have omitted the main point of the gearbox. It has its own L number which will date it more effectively than casting dates. Check underneath at the rear of the casing on a machined flat.

Not sure what the point is with the red interior - all two tone grey cars had a red and black interior. There was no choice whatsoever unless it was a GMH executive car and specially manufactured.
Ken

Ok. Thanks for taking the time to explain. The reason I threw in the bit about the colours etc is important to know, despite some questions seeming to be obscure. When you research something, like what I'm doing not just with the car, but also with the service station itself (there's no info available at all on this piece of motoring history, so having been a researcher professionally I don't just take peoples word for it, u need to work out how credible certain sources are. So without leading ppl onto a conclusion, with a leading question, tonight Ken has explained about the seats in the practical sense, but the other guy assumes they were ordered that way. So without boring you further, it's an exercise in following credible sources for further research.

I don't think I'm being too painstaking with anything, I originally was told I had a 1958 car and the engine points to that, but then I got told I had 59 seats and other bits. Doing 2 cars at once might be confusing ppl lol, but it's only after finally working out I had an unoriginal engine (I assumed it was a 58 car cos it's a 58 engine but it is on a 1966 rego slip) I found fins that I hadn't seen before. Turned out to be 59 fins. So then I was surprised the number on the plate was the correct date as Ken just confirmed by the chassis number I just deciphered today (hard to find from rust). There are other reasons from the research that is unknown to the forum that requires me to try date the car. So it's not really a case of being too painstaking. I didn't know that it had a chassis number, in fact it was so hard to find, the guys  helping me who own the engineering firm I'm using to do a proper job are very old hands and were starting to think I had a replacement front end. This is my first fc I have owned. So I've hit a brick wall with other research for my article for the taxi service and dates down to the year ir even month are important. The most accurate info so far has come from his old neighbour and the info from old industry contacts is full of unfactual assumptions and stories told as fact if you get me.

Just one example to put in context the seemingly obscure questions is that I have other docs here and I'm currently working out whether the cooperative had their own engine builder and extend of the workshop so if and when I get further into enquiries about the business, seemingly not important Info might become important later. Hope this makes sense. I could just pm but I'm sure people gain something from the info Ken provides, again maybe not now but sometimes later mind click and it becomes useful 😃

So given I have other cars from same owner with the b grade licences, if I find info of the other cars of same model (I'm hoping to come across books of records at some stage but I live in a different state), then I'll get an idea if they did everything in house.

Ok Ken, got 2 gearbox number that I would kindly ask you to decode. First is

398407 (fe) and
L635590 (taxi)

The FE box would have (or should have) an L in front of the number which would make it September 1957.
The FC box would come from a car registered in mid December 1959.
I am using engine number details to get this date.

Now, importantly, there is no dating record for gearbox numbers, so there is a VERY big assumption that gearbox numbers follow closely to engine numbers. This may not necessarily be so, but it is a fair judgement that the gearbox was made in December.

Interestingly I referred back to the letter recently posted with engine number details on it.
It listed the last engine for 1959 as L632936 which I have difficulty with.
I have 8 cars recorded alone with engine numbers higher than L638000 with the highest being L638747. These are all from FC's registered in late Decmber 1959. I am yet to see an FC which has continuous reg or paper documentation as a 1960 registration.

So is the letter wrong, or does it only refer to WA vehicles maybe.

Ken

Interesting to know but I suppose answers are more difficult unless you could get the data from the earliest verifiable next model line. I'm not sure of the letter you are referring to. I thought I better give some context to why I am interested in this. But if they carried over engines with L designation into 1960 then I can now see your point about casting dates. Not that Im too concerned myself, with it but I just would have thought it's not in their interest to carry over L engines (back in the day, I'm not disputing if they did either) without scrubbing and restamping for the sake of the buyer or dealer impression, if you get me. That's why I thought it might have been possible that if a  certain amount of late orders were guesstimated for, then a last batch of running gear may have been shipped for x number of cars thus a small window and turnaround to normal (which isn't known). Also, a better impression would have been made to put B engines into last fc's rather than the other way. But if I'm going to research something for submission to birdwood I don't just like guessing, so I try verify the source and not just believe what I hear.

What I like about you Ken, is regardless of the question asked, you always remain factual and respect every question on its merits and answer without judgement. I usually have a good ability to search old threads but this is more difficult with this topic. Thanks again.

Just a thought regarding the stamping of numbers: the engine numbers on greys fitted to FJ utes and panel-vans produced from 19 July 1956 onward were part of the same sequence as the greys fitted to FE Sedans, but they were prefixed "U" rather than "L". The number sequence wasn't reset with the first "L" prefixed engine, it just continued on from 283372 or thereabouts.

But engines were manufactured at Fishermans Bend and crated to other factories for fitment to vehicles. So there are two alternatives that I can see:

1. The prefix was stamped (added) at the time the engine was fitted. This seems unlikely - you'd see mis-stampings and crooked letters if this were the case, but engine numbers are pretty neat and uniform (Police numbers notwithstanding, of course.)
2. The prefix on the crated engine defines the vehicle it must be fitted to.

This makes sense if you think about it - engines for FJs have subtle differences to FE/FC, and the bore is different in FB/EK "B" series blocks. So perhaps it's the other way around, Deano: the last FC manufactured at any factory would correspond to the last L block delivered.

Remember that ID plates were stamped at the manufacturing plant, and chassis numbers at the assembling plant. If there were more bodies than engines, I reckon they would have ended up with ID plates stamped 7406190 or similar (the part number for a shell in primer).

But you would have to think that there was a lot of planning going on to ensure that the output of the factory stamping out body shells matched the engines, and that vehicles exiting the paint shop weren't stranded because the right colour interior wasn't ready for it and so on. It must have been a well oiled machine.

I wonder if someone at Holden has the info?

My further thoughts on this.  Stop reading now if numbers data bores you to tears.....

So Melbourne & Adelaide had the ability to make sedan, ute and van/wagon bodies whilst Sydney only had Sedan and Ute lines. All these bodies would run on a different line because the jigs etc are very specific and would be cumbersome to chop and change from one to another.
I believe that Adelaide only had the three body lines along with Melbourne and Sydney just had the two.
All these plants probably had at least 2 and maybe 3 assembly lines where the bodies are converted to finished cars. These are less cumbersome on equipment and more labour intensive.
So, the FB has to be available for sale on the 1st of Jan 1960, so all the body lines have to be converted to FB sometime in November maybe.....or early December..... I dont know!
This means that FC bodies must be stockpiled to supply the assembly lines up until the end of Dec 1959. Roughly 3000 FC's were produced in Melbourne alone in December 1959!
There is a GMH picture of bodies lined up outside a GMH plant which I looked for but cannot find. I think this is a significant picture for GMH because the changeover from FJ to FE would not have been anywhere near as big as the FC to FB changeover which is why the picture was probably taken. The change from FE to FC is a snap in comparison.
Engines would not have to be stockpiled but as Richard suggests, a tight reign has to be kept on how many FC's are going to need engines so the stamping is correct. B engines would not go into FC's and L engines would not go into FB's.
Anyway, All the body lines stop making FC's and change to FB's. One assembly line is changed to FB and the other(s) stay assembling FC's.
I can imagine this being really trcky to coordinate with FC bodies coming from the stockpile outside the factory and FB's coming down the body lines.
So as the end of 1959 approaches, in theory, the last of the FC bodies are assembled and then they change over to FB as well.
You can imagine how body number sequence and engine number sequence just does not matter and chassis number becomes the one true measure of count.
Sure, once the vehicle is registered, the engine number becomes the important piece of data and chassis number less so, but not in the factory.
As you can see the key piece of data I don't know is when the body lines changed from FC to FB.

Ken

It's really very interesting to read through the logic so well presented.

Is this something you aspire to find Ken? The fb was introduced on 14th January I read somewhere.

That is the date of the press release & the cars themselves were unveiled in dealership showrooms, the next day. But they had to be in production for many weeks prior to this, to stockpile cars so that every dealer in the country had access to them. Also you have to allow for a short assembly-line shutdown for Christmas.

So Ken's guesstimate at an early December 1959 start of FB production is valid.

Ken, have you asked Don Loffler this question ? He may have a contact.

Dr Terry

Wasn't there a strike that delayed the fb release. I thought it was supposed to be a 1959 release. It's code was based on it or something. I don't have time to look much atm. So based on all this, mine is probably a last week car. The numbers were quite high then. They must have been chugging along after Xmas full steam. They may not have anticipated the success of the fb. I grew up near the plant and at times they parked cars over the other side of the road on the raaf base side. It seemed to eb and flow a bit than one would think. All sorts of variables even transport strikes or shortages. As a production manager of noblett furniture, all I heard growing up was dad talking about end of production runs, Xmas and when to time new releases. So it was a case of sales first at shop, managing turnarounds abd deadlines expected from office managers and the poor production line managers dealing with the shit they caused up the line. Hence they always needed good projections of data when busy. Everything was coded.

Ken I have the numbers for my FE Ute, may be of some use

Engine casting Jan 8 1958        No. L422766
Gearbox casting Nov 28 1957   No. L424668
Build date Feb 1958

I would think that the last FC 132.5 head or block casting would've been made AFTER the last FC car was built. GM-H had to build (& then stockpile) more motors than cars for spare parts, warranty replacements & industrial engine supply, prior to the FB 138 ci motor coming online.

Dr Terry

Yeah I agree.

Yes, but all motors built after the last one built for installation in a production line car had no engine numbers stamped on them. They would be stored with a 740..... Part number.
New replacement engines had no stamped number and were stamped by the local police station. This is where the VP and NP blocks come from.
There would have been many hundreds of these built after the last FC ran down the line.
I would think Gary's set of engine and gearbox numbers would be typical of most cars built around that era.



Ken

Dean, notwithstanding all the various delays, shortages etc, the numbers are what I go by.
Here is how I came to your date.
The highest chassis number I have for SA is FC18929A. We will assume this car was built on the last day of 1959. So if the FC was in production for 20 months (approx). This is equivalent to 600 days. 18929/600 = 36.7 cars per day. This is conservative towards the end as production increased over the life of the FC but let's go with it.
18929 minus your car (18495) = 434
So 434 / 36.7 = 11.8 days. This means your car was made at a minimum 12 days from the end of the year which is the 19th. Less a couple of days for Christmas gives the 17th
You can see all the assumptions I have made are all towards the conservative end so if anything your car would be even earlier than the date I have come up with.

Ken

Ken

So, why does the taxi have such a late designated casting date for an "l prefix" gearbox? I must check I got it right lol.

It doesn't really add up. A gearbox casting date of mid to late December can't make its way into a car built in mid December. The code L169 can look very like L168 on a casting.

Ken

Ok I'll check again. It's very hard to read so I'll wire buff it later. Thanks.

Re my 12th Feb post above, the gearbox pulled from taxi is L635590. I don't care about the fe. But I have been working on the fc cos it's home (in 39 degrees mind you 😏) and it's def this number. Can you recheck that's the number you checked originally. Thanks.

For your authenticity here's the chassis number pic. (http://tapatalk.imageshack.com/v2/15/02/21/d0275fa1d7671eb4af58a3e78c9214fd.jpg)