FE-FC Holden Discussion Forum

What do these numbers indicate?
I can recognise the rim size as 7 x 13 but wonder what "JJ" stands for.
The numbers to the right (4 275) are a bit of mystery also.

The rims are off an LC Torana I believe. Has anyone had any problems fitting or running these on a stock FC?

(http://i1276.photobucket.com/albums/y472/davidbolton1/ScreenShot2014-01-12at55159pm_zps974de37b.png) ($2)

My understanding is that J is a term for a lip on the inside of the rim to stop the bead of the tyre running (or being pulled) off the rim hence JJ means there's a lip on both sides of the rim i.e. left hand and right hand sides.

More info here:
http://www.carbibles.com/tyre_bible_pg4.html ($2) - look under "J, JJ, K, JK, B, P and D : Tyre bead profiles / rim contour designations.

Cheers,
Trevor_B

So the jj is the tubeless bead or the shape of the bead . This would explain why my 7x13 hr offset are also 7JJ13 .Haydn

Thanks Trevor.
That's a very interesting page describing the intricacies that come into play when matching tyres with rims.
I'll keep reading through some of the links but have yet to come across a meaning for the other stamped number set (4 275). Have you seen or heard a description?
Dave.

Dave, my son worked at Goodyear Autoservice a few years ago, I'll ask him if he knows what they mean.
Jim

Thanks Jim.

Dave, are they 4 or5 stud? He thinks that's what the numbers are ie number of studs and the spacing between them, but he is not real sure.
Jim

5 stud, even more curious. Apparently fitted to an LC Torana. Manufacturer's serial?

(http://i1276.photobucket.com/albums/y472/davidbolton1/ScreenShot2014-01-13at124021pm_zps4b8210b0.png) ($2)

Think you might be right Dave.
My first car was a 73 LJ Torana. The rims you have are the 8 slot torana standard rim chromed.
I had the standard rim centres moved and changed the offset. Front rims the hubcap was flush and the rear wheels hubcap was about 50 mm in.
Slide hammer required to remove hubcap  ;) . I can remember the 13JJ on the rim but not the other numbers, but as you say could be the date of manufacture or serial number. Always loved chrome rims and they look nice  :)

Cheers Stewy   8)

Thanks Stewy. I think I prefer a standard rim chromed over a lot of the newer mags available now. The cost of chroming a set of standard rims frightened me a bit & then I saw these up for sale. I don't mind that they are easily recognised & I think (hope) the style suits. One of the reasons behind my question is to confirm the model they were off, originally - thanks. Another reason was to establish if they presented any issues on a stock FC with 205/60s fitted. I believe some of later Torana rims had the same centre offset as an FC but I'm not sure about these. If there's only a little room using the tyres offered with these rims it could make all the difference.

Dave, you can check the offset by laying a straight edge across the inside of the rim and measure down to the  face of the mounting plate, this will tell you how far in the rim will sit when bolted up.
Jim

Jim,

I'm guessing, by analogy with the date codes on engine block castings, April 27, 1975.  But because a 7JJx13 wheel was never an original Holden part, it may be 1985, or 1995.  The general condition of the finish is too good for a 40-year-old wheel, in my opinion.

Rob

Jim, the wheels are for sale & not with me. I can suggest this to the selling I guess. It may already be narrowed down enough with Stewy recognising them & last post from FCDave displaying the same rims on his very nice new wagon.

Rob, I understand the rims are newly chromed so that explains the appearance. The stamped numbers may be the date, if they were originally off a '75 model Torana (LX/LH?) - assuming they are the same rims as LJ/LC.

They look to be Torana rims but I would say they are remade rims as I don't think GMH made 7" rims, 6" rims where the largest on the standard XU1's. Not sure about the other numbers, so just tell him to list them as Torana rims to suit up to HR.
Jim

OK, thanks again Jim.

Oops! And of coarse LC-UC Torana
Jim

Gotcha, questions sent to seller.
Care to estimate a typical fair price with 4 new Nankang 205/60s fitted?
Have no idea about popularity or demand for these, just liked the look.

Checked eBay, these rims and tyres are listed at $950 with one bid.
Jim

As a bit of a guide, I paid $135.00 each for the Maxxis tyres that are on my wagon. (205/60).The rims came on a parts car. They were chrome, but in a bad way. I'm guessing they have been re-manufactured at some stage. I had them sandblasted & painted. I was going to measure the offset for you, but those hubcaps are a bugger to get off. Unless your car is lowered, you should have some clearance.

Yes, the new listed tyres go for around $110, so the rims work out at around $130 each (at $950) - seems OK at that but who knows what they could go for.

I paid $150 for 2 nangkang  205-60-13 on ebay and fitted them myself and then $85 each fitted and balanced at my local tyre store . Checked around before purchase and $85-$110 fitted and balanced seemed the norm.

G'day Dave,
If you have standard FE/FC brake drums, those chromies won't suit.
Of course the stud holes line up etc, but the bumps (dimples) on the brake drums prevent the back of the wheel centre making proper contact with the drum.
You will end up with the same problems related in another thread.http://fefcholden.org.au/forum/index.php/topic,18080.msg147042.html#msg147042 ($2)
Sorry to rain on your parade, but I'd hate to see you come a cropper when the wheels fell off. ;D
If anybody has a fix for this, I'd be very interested as I have the same problem.
The previous owner of my project unknowingly had the exact same wheel centres as yours and when one of his front wheels came off he suspected someone had tampered with his wheel nuts.
It has taken me quite a while to get to the bottom of this mystery,
Cheers,
Prof.

[/quote]Thanks for the info.

I do recall reading this a while back, thanks for the reminder.
I'll read it again. I suppose there's little chance of the rim holes lining up with brake drum shape.
Dave.

I can see the issue with aftermarket rims but does this same issue arise with Torana rims on FC drums?

G'day Dave,
If all Torana centres are the same as the ones in your pics then yes, there is a problem.
The "lumps" on the drums hold the centres off the drums.
Apparently it's not a problem with later model drums which are flat. (from EH onwards?)
Maybe someone else has better info. I'm only conversant with FE/FC.
I can take pics and post them up if anyone requires.
Cheers,
Prof.

It's easier to recognise the difference once you know what to look for & why.
Thanks for the interesting discussion everyone.
I now have a far better chance of getting it right the first time.

Like I said other places on this forum , this problem with early rim centres was common knowledge back in the day. But back to the original subject . About 30 years ago I bought my chromed 7x13 HR rims new from ROH and when they arrived one was reversed and not a match to the others .I am sorry I can't remember the numbers on that one but the first three have 7JJ13 and 9304 and the later one has 7JJ13 and 4110 so I'm thinking that because I only got another rim and got my centre rechromed and welded in that the numbers only refer to the rim not the centre . The later numbers being that the 4 is common is centre position and the rest is month and year .Just a guess . Haydn

The rim numbers (4 275) remain a bit of a mystery but the most common thinking is that they represent a date -
  4: the 4th day or 4th week
  2: the 2nd month
 75: the year
For this example it could be the case since the owner advised they were from an LH/'75 Torana.
The rims had been widened as Jim noted.  I can find nothing to suggest the numbers relate to customisation. 
Examples on some other rims don't seem to match anything like a manufactured date.
Holden Australia have no records dating back far enough so were unable to draw on any technical reference.

Haydn, I'm a but confused with your example below (doesn't take much).
Anyway, you have probably come across the suggestion for 14" rims put to me today - HT rims with the centres reversed will suit a stock FCs (but the original hubcaps won't fit). Do you know if the rim sits against the drum well enough to overcome the issues described?

My example of the numbers was to show that the numbers only relate to the outer rim . The centre is put in later and most definitely with chrome rims ROH did the rims and you must specify the offset . I would assume that a reversed rim would be numbered different as the valve stem hole would be filled and redrilled . From memory a standard HK,HT,HG rim may still bend your drum or bind your brakes .Although it is reversed ,it still bolts on the same. The offset is important only in regard to the upper ball joint on a HR front end with HR stub axles and rotors. But I guess the question is how to fit later rims on early brake drums . With no regard for the law , I would say 3mm spacer plate behind the rims . Like was stock on torana and just bolt those chrome torana rims on . Could do the same with 14" but if the local laws say you can't do this then you probably have a better argument with the torana rims . Haydn

I had a look at an old drum and my standard rims the drums have a hump between each stud hole and the rims have a corresponding hollow. I also have a couple of original Torana rims which don't have the hollows, I also checked the Dragway five spokes I'm putting on the car and the inside of the spokes are hollow so they will fit the FC drums. I think the only way to fit Torana rims safely, would be to upgrade to EJ-EH brakes as their drum faces are flat. I also have a rusty FB van, so I'll check the drums tomorrow and see if they have the humps or not.
Jim

As Haydn described earlier.
eBay - Holden Torana LC LJ XU-1 & Bathurst Monaro Original wheel spacer ......
..... one only , used original General Motors Holden wheel spacer in excellent used condition has been stored for over 35 years these were used on LC and LJ xu-1 torana's on front and rear  and rear of the HK HT HG bathurst Monaro's  a must have rare  original part

http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/Holden-Torana-LC-LJ-XU-1-Bathurst-Monaro-Original-wheel-spacer-/231136884411?pt=AU_Car_Parts_Accessories&hash=item35d0d4f6bb&_uhb=1

Would like to see one on an FC drum to better understand the benefit (is it shaped on one side?).
(http://i1276.photobucket.com/albums/y472/davidbolton1/ScreenShot2014-01-18at120351am_zps5b099ef9.png) ($2)

Not certain ,but they seemed to spread the pressure against the rim more evenly . I don't recall having any problems when I run these ,but then the rims and drums had less age back then .Haydn

I think this is probably an important factor too.

from memory, they used the spacers for the wider rims so they would clear the steering arms? as they where fitted to the XU1s with globe mags. the standard steel rims didn't use them.
Jim

BSA Wheels Australia have a range of spacers pictured on line & will make any to suit your specific needs for around $75 each.

http://bsawheels.com.au/products.asp?index=Spacers

I'll check here in ACT on Monday and ask about acceptable options for fitting newer rims on FC drums.
Will test a few scenarios such as Torans & 14" HT rims. ACT regulations can sometimes be more relaxed or more stringent than other states.

Eventually found the right number & spoke with a very helpful 'technical advisor' on the use of wheel mods & spacers.
He has an FE ute so was familiar the scenario.

In ACT, spacers are not permitted - as is the case elsewhere.
"Additional stresses may be imposed that were not included in the manufacturers' engineering design e.g. changing the offset, using longer studs."

The National Code of Practice for Light Vehicle Construction and Modification (NCOP)
http://www.infrastructure.gov.au/roads/vehicle_regulation/bulletin/vsb_ncop.aspx
11 Section LS Suspension and Steering PDF doc, includes the paragraph -
 Wheel spacers (or adaptors for dual wheel conversions) between the wheel mounting face
 and the road wheel must not be used unless fitted as original equipment by the vehicle
 manufacturer..
The code covers some other topics also & is used nationally for consistency. 
In relation to wheel modifications (e.g. FC rim centres/Torana rims), it seems to be a little grey regarding certification.
The ACT doesn't have anyone who currently does this work but maybe the businesses elsewhere are certified to to meet an appropriate standard.
It seems smartest thing to do when having a vehicle inspected initially would be to have the standard rims fitted, and avoid drawing any attention to something that could be open to interpretation by the individual on the day.
I expect 99% realise this anyway.

I think this is where the problem is . The people making the rules and most of the people given the job of enforcing the rules are not up to the job when it comes to these old cars . They will allow torana stubs ,callipers ,rotors ,HQ steering arms and torana racks but not the spacers . Like with the ASRF ,find your engineer[inspectors] and have a long talk to him before any of these mods are decided .And hope they are still around when you finally finish your car. Problems like not being told all the rules at the beginning , rules changing while the car is under construction, new inspector with differing interpretation of rules . I had this problem while building my Caleche , the original model had the top folding down behind the back seat into the luggage space and so I presumed this was ok but because the fuel tank filler pipe went through the same space the rules say that I needed a enclosed luggage compartment [I could have simply sleeved the filler pipe if I had been forewarned] so now the top has to sit outside  and on top and the back seat is steel backed . Has to be strapped down [otherwise parachute] and rubs on the paintwork, and had to extend the stalk on the dash mounted rear view mirror .This is just one of many problems you can have if you don't get the correct advice [ an informed interpretation of the rule]. This is the beauty of this forum ,you can be warned of the problems before you make a costly or time consuming mistake . Haydn

Have to agree on all the points you make Haydn. Even the NCOP that forms the basis nationally is a living doc. Sticking with a local engineer who is young enough & interested enough to stay in the job a few years would be certainly be advantageous.
I've learned quite a bit here about the seemingly simple job of selecting a set of wheels.
The forum certainly offers the novice some very good direction.

Here's an off-the-wall suggestion if you want to run the Torana rims on a standard FC front supension:

Get EJ-EH front brakes and backing plates, and LC-LJ hubs and drums.  The front wheel cylinders and shoes are the same on Toranas and EHs; the Torana hubs and drums are engineered for the Torana wheel centres.

Or you could change to FB-EK front brakes, then you won't need to change backing plates (possibly?); and run Torana front drums and hubs.

I think the front brake shoe width on FB, EK, EJ, EH, and LC-J Toranas is the same at 2", although be aware that the brakes changed from "semi-huck" to "duo-servo" at EJ.

Rob

Thanks Rob, I'll weigh up the options with the stage things are at.

Well, I have been watching this thread with interest & it seems I have made a blunder with my wheels. :'( . This must not be well known, as there are plenty of Torana rims advertised for early Holdens.These wheels were on an FE that I bought, the only difference being that it has different brake drums on the rear. They have a flat face around the stud holes and a lip or rib where they meet the backing plate & are much thicker. Are these HR? I already Have two 7 inch older style rims that I painted in adobe beige. (must have known something). So I would say my easiest option is to look out for two more 6 or 7 x13 wheels to fit my 205 tyres to, rather than re-inventing the wheel, so to speak. Thanks for all the info & thanks to Dave(DJ) for his time on the phone yesterday. Looks like there may be a set of adobe beige Tory rims for sale soon.  If anyone has two wheels, i would be interested, Dave.

Good to talk to you Dave. Mods to accommodate the later wheels certainly allow a wider choice in the combinations of rims & tyres currently available.
Having rims made up using the early centres may end up as costly, but can remove some of the mystery & complication (for me) to change front end components. I'd like to go 14 x 6 but fitting early centres to 14 inch rims may present another issue where a ring is needed to fill the gap - and such modification may not be approved for road use. Some places seem to be unaware of the unique early drum shape, or any problems that can arise using other rims, which is surprising when you read their spiel about their time & experience in the industry. Will try some more outlets today.

They use to make a 15'' steel outer rim that accepted the 14'' center don't know if they made 14'' to take a 13'' center  ??? ???.....FC427......

Volvo?

Would be ideal but nothing like that at the places I've contacted so far. Will ask about Volvo. Some suggest HK 14s for FE FC drum shape but the only drawback is you lose the option to fit hubcaps. Not sure if these will seat flat against the drum without being able to try it & see for sure. Any known problems?

You could get them when I was a boy but they are elusive now.