FE-FC Holden Discussion Forum

Hi everyone, Iam having some dramas with my Bosch, grey dizzy.
I fitted the Crane Fireball XR 700 electronic conversion some months ago and all seemed fine, but now the car is a driver ( potentially)
some problems have arised with tuning.
It has a bad flat spot-stutter at any rev,(under load) for instance if you accelerate to say 2 grand it is fine till it actually gets there then it behaves very badly. If you try to hold it on any rev above about 1500 it will start to misfire. If you are sitting on 2000 and it starts misfiring and you flatten it it takes off and will scream to 4500-5000 easy with plenty of power. I noticed that the timing did not seem to be advancing with revs and if anything it seemed to actually be retarding. The timing is correct as per book. Is there anybody out there that I can send this dizzy to to rebuild? I do want to stay with  electronic but dont care if they throw the fireball stuff in the bin and fit whatever. I cant seem to find anyone in WA that can rebuild a grey engine dizzy. The engine does have a 35-75 cam and some headwork for your interest. Any help would be appreciated, its one of those things that just shit you to tears,
Thanks Gary C

G'day Gary, the vic club have a retro fit style, that you can fit into your existing grey motor dizzy. you can contact nasco hunter and he can put you on the right track.
 cheers scotty

Thanks Scotty, I'll check it out. The main issue might be a  dizzy that comes into spec before conversion,
Gary

You sure it's the dizzy Gary, usually if they play up it's pretty constant or under load, sounds more like a carby problem to me, I've had similar problems before, put a kit through it no difference whacked another carby on and it fixed it immediatly.
              Pedro

Make sure all of your vaccum lines are tight, as if you have a vaccum leak this will effect the vaccum advance,  if all checks out ok there check your float level and that everything on the carb is tight as this will be effecting your fuel mixture and supply
Cheers
Frank

Thanks Pedro and Frank, it has been one of those things where you go "sounds like fuel" then after a couple of days "must be timing", We have checked all vac line fittings and it does have vacuum, but when timing without the vacuum connected there was no mechanical advance. With the carbys (triple strombergs) I did think maybe accelerator pump, but all carbys have been kitted and all float levels in spec. I did disconnect the front and rear carbys and ran it on the centre carby only and the same misfire. I have it with the local mechanic now and he has gone through all the carbys and manifold and synchronized them. He has had the dizzy out ( for the 100th time) and gone through everything. Before I gave it to him it was advancing but he did show me with timing light that it seems to retard if anything with big revs. I have organised another dizzy ( thanks ACE ) and will try that. Starting to get a bit expensive at the mechanics so I will bring it back home and keep scratching my head.
Thanks for the advice again fellas , always appreciated.
Gary

Hi Gary
I had my Dizzy rebuilt whilst in Perth, If you give Greg @ Greg Adams Auto a call he should be able to point you in the right direction. He is a good old fashion mechanic, I highly recommended to anyone looking for a mechanic in Perth especially classic car owners.

Greg Adams Automotive Services
Motor Engineers & Repairers - Balcatta, WA
(08) 9349 8856
Address
13 Halley Rd, Balcatta WA 6021, Australia

Cheers Jim

It could be the leads crossfiring too - that was my problem (many years ago) when I fitted a DIY electronic ignition assist. Looking at in in the dark might help? New leads sorted it for me.

Thanks Jim, I will give Greg a call, I picked my car up tonight from the mechanics and it was "friday night beers" when I got there and all there were pointing at the dizzy. Thankyou also fossil, the leads are all new you beaut fancy best you can buy type jobbies but I will take your advice and check it out tonight to see if there is stray spark. you just never know.
Thanks ,
Gary

Well forget chasing carby or lead problems until you fix this issue.  :-\

There are two types of advance utilised in your car, centrifugal and vacuum.

The vacuum advance can be easily checked by the use of an external vacuum source. The centrifugal advance can be checked using a timing light or distributor graph. As you say the timing didn't seem to advance with revs so clearly neither type of advance is working correctly.

Have you lifted the cap and checked that the dizzy plate is free to move? Maybe when you screwed the new ignitor module down the screws (or the module itself) is fouling and preventing the plate from moving.

When I was doing my motor up I had no centrifugal advance.  The problem was the inner and outer shafts were seized together.  Dismantling and cleaning cured the problem.  Another problem was the engine was running rough when I increased the revs to around 1500 the motor ran rough.  At all other speeds it was fine.  The problem was one of the new sparks plugs was faulty.

Keith

I used John @ kent town auto tune in adelaide.  He has a dissy tester and can regraph / recondition per your requirements. 

He is very good and went into depths with me explaining how the springs and weights work  - as well as how the springs wrap around cam to change the advance curve.  Mine were worn, but he had some NOS items to make sure the curve was 100%

Good luck

Thanks Peter and Craig , I had a look at the dizzy today and the springs and counterweights all look fine and the plate moves easily to allow advance without the vacuum  control assembly connected.
The spring in the vacuum control assembly does seem very strong,does anyone know how to measure the spring tension backyard style?
Also the little earth strap is non existant from the vacum assembly to the breaker plate, is this critical when using electronic ignition?
I was also getting a bit of a boot when adjusting the optical trigger with ignition on and could clearly hear spark jumping while making this adjustment. ( not visible in dark) Is is normal to hear the optical trigger spark like this?
While adjusting the dizzy while engine running I also got a continuous boot when my forearm touched the coil lead at the coil top.
All leads etc a new MSD. I know its hard without looking at it in the flesh but any advice would be great.
Thanks Gary

The module should be grounded. How many wires come out of it and where do they connect to?

Fit the wire that is missing and you may find it works a bit better.

I changed dizzys and it ran 100% better.
Iam now sending the original dizzy to John at Kent Town Auto Tune (thanks Peter) and he will re-graph and repair it,hopefully.
It has a fair bit of up and down movement in the inner and outer shafts and looks like the rotor was riding up enough to hit the top of the cap. And there was enough cap and rotor material in the cap to suggest that there was a bit of grinding going on.
Thanks for all the input again.
Gary

Gary
You will be very pleased with John's work, Peter put me on to him when I moved to Adelaide. John tuned my car for me before the nationals and had it running like a dream. He fiddled with my twin carb set up until he had it running perfect. John is an old time mechanic who's his uncle invented the dunstan rotary head for the grey. I had a bit of a history lesson when I went there.

Cheers Jim

Thank you for the information! I learned a lot of new things! Glad to be a part of your community
___________________
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Gary 45
Welcome to the family, and glad we can all be of service.

Cheers Jim

Hmmmm,, that is weird...
Iam a romeo y julietta man, by the box.( cigars )

I got my dizzy back and it has been recond and re curved by John at Kent Town Autos and it looks better than new.
John said it has a base timing of 15 and a max advance of 34.
He also said to install the dizzy to TDC not the timing ball.
The TDC mark is hard to see on my flywheel so I turned the engine over by hand checking no 1 piston.
When I thought it was TDC on no 1 on compression the mark was about 4 teeth on the flywheel past the timing ball, does that sound correct?
If this is correct to achieve a base timing of 15 you have to have a adjustable timing light to strobe back to TDC when you advance the dizzy to 15 deg at idle?
I don't have a adjustable timing light but will get one organised but if the timing ball is 2 deg advanced from TDC and that is about 4 teeth would it mean that if I made a mark 28 teeth ahead of TDC and used my timing light would that get me close?
It just seems like a fair way advanced to me, I have tried the above and Iam starting to get more confused.
Gary.

I noticed in another manual a photo of the TDC mark and the steel ball timing mark being only about 1 tooth on the ring gear apart.
If anybody has a flywheel with clear marks could they please just let me know the rough distance between theses two marks.
The marks on my flywheel are not distinct and are spread over about 50mm either side of the steel ball.

Thanks, Gary

Geez,,thought there might be one good flywheel out there.

 Anyway got it sorted, flywheel circumference ( less timing ball distance inside circumference) divided by 360 deg = mm per degree.
Gary.

G'day Gary,
 I set my timing by driving the car, first, set it then take off through the gears and if it doesn't ping then adjust it some more. I adjust the timing a little bit at a time, then once it is pinging knock it back so it stops pinging and it is set. You need to be turning the dizzy anti clockwise to advance. If you have no distinct timing mark then it is hard to set to nothing.
If anyone thinks that i am doing this wrong please let me know, because i would hate for this to damage my engine, but i don't know of any other way.
 cheers Scotty

Thanks Scotty, I did manage to get it running pretty smooth.
The guy that sorted my dizzy also sent me some 49 main jets and 60 power valves and this also helped once the base timing of 15 deg was achieved.
It finally goes well and is great to drive.
Gary