FE-FC Holden Discussion Forum

It seems time to stir the possum again, since the forum seems to have descended into an exercise into making V6/V8 Commondores with FE/FC  (thankfully mostly FC) bodies. Three out of the five current posts seem devoted to this.

I wonder what forum members make of the current crop of retro cars. Foremost in the reasonably priced category is the new Beetle which has been around since 1998, believe it or not, followed by the Mini in its various iterations, the now unlamented Chrysler PT Cruiser and most recently the Fiat 500. In the higher echelons we have the S type Jaguar (horrible), various DB Astons - beautiful but derivative - and the new Rolls Royce, sort of space without the grace (with apologies to Jaguars famous 1950s/60s slogan).

In the US we now have the new Mustang, Challenger and Camaro - not to mention both Vipers - all of which look fat and fairly ordinary when compared with their progenitors.

In the hot rodding scene in the US in the 30s, 40s it was mostly about go faster equipment for the old 4 cylinders, the ultimate being the DOHC heads from  Rajo, Frontenac (which was Louis Chevrolet ironically) Gallivan, etc., not to metion the plethora of OHV conversions available for Model T and A Fords. In the 50s the emphasis gradually switched to the V8s which lets face it weren't great engines, but they were cheap and plentiful.

The cars themselves were mostly Model T and A and '32 (model 18 and B for the four cylinders) coupes and roadsters because they were light and cheap. In the later 50s they were chopped, channeled, frenched Z'ed and goodness knows what else. lately however the most respected variant is the fenderless highboy.

What I wonder, is to become of all the FE/FCs which have no real relationship to the original cars with completely different chassis and running gear in modern pearl colours. Are they modern cars and to be judged as such? they certainly bear no significant relationship to the originals.
 
My proposition is that these are simply retro cars, they bear no fundamental relationship to the original, the only characteristic remaining being the styling. It seems to me the soul has been erased and the end result is neither the donor car or the recipient. Given the rapid depletion in the surviving numbers of these cars maybe its time we all started to be a bit more sympathetic to their history before tearing them apart. Don't get me wrong I have no problem with mods whatsoever but if you want an R8 Commodore then buy one, they aren't that common either.

Food for thought eh? Let the brickbats fly ;D


Cheers
John

Hooooeeee!!  :o I can see this one has the potential of getting out of hand real quick  ;D
[PERSONAL OPINION]
I agree to a certain extent, but I think repowering the cars with almost anything and improving the safety is OK, I am famous for my pet hate "grey interiors"  :-\ two or three tone trims look great in these cars. As to the Commodore parts, please leave the wheels bigger than 15" on the Commodores  ::)
[/PERSONAL OPINION]

As one of the offenders for this post... its hard not to read and take it a little personally.

I love the shape of the FE/FC and always have... i have owned a std sedan, std ute, modified van and now building a modified ute.

Yes the donor car is a Commodore... Falcon parts won't fit as good... :P

Try telling Fitzy, Scotty, Propig, and all of the others that I haven't mentioned that their cars have no heritage, no soul, or no longer even FE/FC... I am sure that Fitzy's car has won all of those awards as an FC Sedan... Would you class Leons great work as still an FC???

Quote "Don't get me wrong I have no problem with mods whatsoever but if you want an R8 Commodore then buy one, they aren't that common either."

Maybe I am not welcome at the Nationals any longer??

If you don't have a problem with Mods, then why start the topic with FC Commodores which you know will offend right from the start...

The new R8 isn't for me and never has been... People have asked me why the hell you would want to do what i am doing, and the answer i give them is that because I built it myself, there is not another one like it and half the fun of the hobby that I have is the research and the learning involved in what is actually going into the car. I don't know if you built yours or bought it... and I really don't care. You like YOUR car and that is all that matters.

MY car is for me, for me to build, for me to pay for and for me to drive... I don't care that you may not like what i am doing to is at its my sweat and dollars going into it... And sorry stinky I will be having grey interior and 17' rims on the front and 18's on the back, and i will be putting in all of the other things that i have been told previously I cant do, as in ABS, Steering wheel airbag, Seatbelt pre tensioners, Climate control, Cruise control, Power steering, 5 speed manual and a huge smile on my face. But again its my car and thats what I like and thats what I am going to do.

The car to me does have a soul... MY soul... And I am proud of my work, enough said.

John will you be driving your car to Orange or to Perth in 2012... I plan to drive mine unless the rules change regarding My FE Commodore.

I am not happy with the question, but as you can see i have left anger out of this response, and I ask everyone else to keep their responses measured, as I am sure that the rest of the forum members are like me and love all of the FE/FC's that are represented here and are proud to be a part of this forum, but this kind of stirring has no place for me.

Jason.

Hey John.
Interested in popular opinion on this topic, as i'm all but done on my project.  :P
Yeh, I approached it from a different angle.  ;)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v608/customfc2/Holden/VEgrey.jpg)

Serously though, i'm all for this type of car and feel it has as much merit as any resto.
With the exception of the wheels, when these cars are sitting beside a stockie, no-one would be any the wiser. You seem to indicate that the fundamental of an FE FC is in the floorpan, suspension and engine bay, perhaps it's the lack luster performance of these components compared to modern cars, that you admire. Personally I feel the largest fundamental quality of these cars is the styling, and that is preserved in this type of car. I admire the work that is going into each of these cars and wish that I could pull off such engineering. Modern performance and 50's styling.....an awesome combination.
If I had listened to the MANY people with opinions on my car, I might have been turned off, but as the sticker emblazened across my rear window says..."SAVED FROM A RESTORER"...enough said.
Regards
Alex
Excuse my lighthearted pic above, but I can't take this sort of post seriously.

Johns.... if you need reminding cars have no soul,or do they feel pain ....You can love a car all you want but it will never love you back .....It does not know if it is modified or Standard ....there are no limitations on what a person is allowed to do to their own car .....Only limitations in some peoples minds.....And as you said no significant relationship [can you actually belive that shit ] wipe you mouth  ............FC427.......

Anyone that knows me will know I like original & restored to original FE - FC's.
I think their numbers will always far outweigh the modified cars

But I'm impressed by well done, well thought out & executed builds that have the potential to deliver modern car performance, handling and niceties.

I believe that in future these cars will be looked at much the same way as we look at the custom builds from our past now, with some reverence for the builder who had the balls to cut it and turn it into something special, yet retain or improve (if thats possible) on the models good looks

Just my 2 bobs worth

Gary   

I happened to see John's post only a minute or two after he published it last night, and like Stinky, I thought wow, this is gonna get messy...

I can see why Jason was offended, and I tend to think he's probably justified. This restorer vs. modifier debate is just not particularly healthy. There's plenty of clubs out there that have been pulled apart by this schism, and it's a real shame because for many one-model clubs, there aren't enough devotees to really make half the movement work on its own.

I'd like to hope that people would appreciate the significance of a 50 year old original, unrestored, barn-fresh find and treat it appropriately, but ultimately "it's yours, and you can do what you want with it". The "Retro Tech" style (as Street Machine used to - and may still - call it) has a place in the range of ways these cars are preserved.

Frankly, the wrecking of perfectly restorable salvageable/rebuildable cars is a far greater crime in my opinion.

cheers
RET

PS: entries at recent Nats reflect the make-up of the clubs on the eastern seaboard: 50-60% stock, 40-50% modified. The next Nats is introducing a second non-stock class, so the rules are certainly not being changed to exclude them. Jason, I've been watching your thread with awe, and am really hoping you hit your 365 day target.

[Edit: poor use of word restorable - meant cars that could be returned to the road, not necessarily "restored"]

It's the essence of HOT RODDING.. and I love it  ;D

Cheers

Ed

Guys,

This post of mine is crap.

It was badly expressed, counterproductive and as RET suggested, useless.

Jason, I apologise for the offence, I wasn't even pissed when I wrote it so no excuse.

Sometimes you wish a hole would open and swallow you, this is one of those.

Again my apologies to everyone I have offended.

John

^^^^
Mistake one.

Mistake Two
Sticking your head above the trench - you were always going to get shot!!

Each to their own I say, but don't hesitate to cut 'em up fella's. It'll just make the stockies worth more  ;D

My belief is that any way that a person chooses to build their car means another one has been saved from the crusher. Ultimately, how a car is built or "looks" is really just an extension of the builder's personality and beliefs and we're all different and entitled to our own opinion.

As this broken record has said many times - true car enthusiasts (while having preferences for particular makes, models and "looks") can appreciate all cars whether they're original, restored or modified.  

I appreciate your last post Johns - now let's all snuggle in for a nice big group cyber-hug!  :)

Don't worry about it John, we should be able to have a good healthy debate on these issues as long as no one goes over the top as has happened in the past, we are all different with our own tastes, if everyone in the club built a bog stock car things would start to get a bit repetetive and boring.
As for myself i can see the beauty in a standard car as well as a custom, I love the shape of the FE/FC the curves and the chrome and would rather drive one than anything else but i don't like the lack of power, the crappy brakes and poor handling of a standard car(my personal opinion), if i get stuck behind a slow driver i want to be able to plant my foot and get around quickly, when i get some pimply faced teen revving his later model car and carrying on at the lights i want to leave him behind with a disbelieving look on his face(yes i'm an old hoon Jack ;D) anyway time to get off my soap box but before i go i'd like to say "FE/FC's rule" whichever way they are built.
                                                 Pedro

John,

Its takes a guy with guts to stand up and admit he made a mistake, your apology is accepted.

We all do it from time to time and I look forward to catching up at the Nats...

Regards
Jason.

AMEN Brother ;D

Dean.

FEs are just that much better though  :-*

Oh oh, here we go again  ;D.

WITHOUT TRYING TO OFFEND ANYBODY
it's pretty much how it's always been in most cases
a modifier can appreciate and admire a stock or restored car where as in MOST cases a restorer is one eyed and once a car is modified as far as they are concerned it's wrecked

The plain and simple fact is that any change from original on the car is a modification and that includes re-trim, paint etc so any car that has been restored with anything but what they had from factory is modified, so as far as originality goes on FE, FC's there would be less than 1% that would make it into that category. At the end of the day we are all enthusiasts and doing what we think is best to suit our individual tastes and needs and we should be helping other members by getting behind them and not making them feel as though they have wasted their time on their cars.

And maybe in twenty years or so we might think " I wish I had modified it because I can't get the original parts now ?????


Love em both ways !!

Regards Weddo

Ratbox,

I don't disagree with you. I think it's true that SOME restorers feel that way, but at the same time I've met some modifiers who have zero appreciation for restored cars, and view them as a waste of paint waiting for the grinder and the engine hoist.

It's a continuum. There a fundamentalists and kooks at both ends, but most of us are in the middle, or not that far from it. It's the ones at either end you have to watch. ;)

cheers
RET
Bloke with one foot in each camp: 1 stock FE, 1 modified FE.

Yeah RET,

But with one foot on either side... Means your nuts are on the line!!!.  ;D ;D

Sorry couldn't resist...

Jason.

I would have to agree with RET, I would classify myself predominantly as a restorer with clearly my best cars having been full on restos. BUT I have had a hand in modifying a huge number of FE's and FC's over the years - my first car was a modified FC in 1972 and my current car is a modified FE (I finally saw which was the better model ;D)
I love restored cars and modified cars and I certainly don't believe in the old adage of a car being "too good to modify" Personally I like to start with the best car possible and go from there.

Ken

Tut tut Stinky, as a moderator shouldn't you be throwing water on the fire not petrol ;), anyway wasn't the FE a prototype and the FC is when they reached perfection :P :P :P ;D ;D
                                                   Pedro

Are looking for a "time-out" Pedro?  ;)

I'm sorry uncle Stinky i promise i'll be a good boy from now on and won't put shit on FE's ::) just don't give me time out or i'll get withdrawl symptoms ;) :D :D
                                      Pedro

Ive followed this thread with interest but haven't felt a need to comment. Modification or restoration doesn't concern me. Ive got two vehicles and while they are relative stock I don't class them as original as they have had modifications anyway ie: tyres, radios, differing motor numbers etc...

If making a serious modifications I think that you need to be in it for the long hall. I am currently watching an American car auction on One HD and this very discussion came up. They spoke about modification and the problem lies when or if you go to sell the car in the future. You modify to your desire and plans. If you go to sell, finding someone else who has the same tastes will be limited. What they were saying is at auction the supply and demand is limited to modified vechicles due to this fact.

Personally I like the stock vehicles but only wish I had the skills, time, passion and desire that we see are seeing with the modification vehicles.

By the way. The auction was interesting. I can't believe how cheap some of the vehicles were being sold for. Would barely cover the cost of parts materials of the restorations / modifications let alone the time. I can see why some people import them into the country.

Cheers

Rod

yes you are correct RET with modifiers completley dissliking stockers, i figure if you can't see the beauty of a body style in the stock original form it pretty much won't improve with modification
i like MCL's thinking aswell the better car you start with the easier the job ;D although i am starting to get a consiance and find it harder to make a cut on a good original car ???

ha ha, i thought this was going to be about stockers, the COMMONdore look, were at a event they all line up and most people seem to look at the first two and assume all the rest are exactly the same.
 stockers are ok, you cant get more period correct than a origional car with a rubber floor on crossply tyres with no seatbelts and just enough accsessories to be typical of what a FE or FC might have been like in its day(not the whole friggin nasco catologue fitted).
 i also think you loose some of the feel updating the engine, gearbox, brakes, seats etc
 the down side is youve seen one youve seen them all, just the colours vary but how many people really remember your car, how many people are going to pick your car at a car show of 500 cars and take a photo for a screen saver on there computer or mobile phone.

from what ive seen on ebay with all old cars be it a 1932 ford or a hr holden modified cars seem to pull higher money, i dont know why, personally i prefer to buy a standard car and modify it to my taste but that doesnt  i dont plan to sell ever so if the value of my car is $1or $1000000 i dont care.

i personally like old stuff, i updated my motor but the motor is still from about 1963, i wanted it to be fast, i like fast cars, to get it fast by todays standards it cost alot of money and some relibilty and fuel economy is sacrificed, i guess that is why people bite the bullet and fit a $1000 later model engine instead of spending $7000 on a red waiting to explode.
 i like FC holdens, i grew up around them and have significant childhood memories of being in modified ones they almost have the style of the beautiful american cars but are swifter to drive and have almost half the weight, they are also from the country i am most proud of.
 but like most factory built cars there is room for improvement when you are rebuilding a car at your own pace at home instead of it being quickly built on a assembly line, alot of ugly joins and seems can be done away with for a nicer smoother look, badges used to advertise the car to other motorists in traffic when it was new can be taken away for cleaner smoother looking panels, if you know you wont be driving on a 20 mile dirt track to your farm each day you can reduce the ground clearance for a sleeker lower wider look.
 you can even choose your exact favourite colour instead of the factory colours and ofcourse pearls, candy and metal flake has been used since the 50's, the only new colours are the flip flop ones wich can go from green to purple or gold to purple, modern colours common today are dark metallics, silver, black or white.
 in the end you have a car to suit its owner, and usually something that stands out

I know this is an old thread but I am glad to rekindle it for new members who, like me, are having this internal struggle.

I was actually inspired to get an FE/FC because I had seen them at classic custom and hotrod shows over the years. So I would not have "saved" the old cars like I have from the crushers etc or from deteriorating further - til they get to a state - that you cannot even recognise them anymore.

That's why I have bought 2. But funny thing is, the taxi I bought is modified but it was modified for a purpose and that was to be part of a taxi fleet in Adelaide. Now, John's argument is sort of true (despite his delivery he has acknowledged was not intended to be) BUT  :o I am a history buff, which means, the true originality of the grey two tone original numbers means very little to me because, the car is an "actual part of Adelaide's history" as it stands in black. In other words, it means much more to my family and those I know in Adelaide (especially older people) than just a car that was owner by someone I have no connection with. So I am not going to go and buy a car that has this type of history and take it back to original, because I have all these docs that prove its authenticity. Car culture is what we are talking about here, and all cultures require "meaning making" from its participants.

Also, my Blue FE (which is the best car of the 2 cos its an FE ha ha  8)) is totally standard in every way, but still, its so far gone in the body that half the metal will be replaced. So I am ripping out half of its soul straight away, but its still better than what would have happened if I had no inspiration from the 'retroteked' machines I have began to like and respect.

I have actually gone full circle and have learned to respect them for what they are (I am talking the stock machines) and we did exactly what John has said. And I appreciate John for having the balls to say what he said (although I think the way he said it was not his intention to offend anyone) so now I am sort of thinking.....hmmmm an fe or fc is not like a "HSV" or something like that, it wasnt built for speed necessarily, so why am I sucked in by that (I use sucked in as in 'drawn to it' not fooled). Sometimes I like the ideas of cars sitting in the paddock rusting and some should stay there as reminders of our heritage. They become part of the furniture.

So we did what some said, we got a Sportswagon. Ill do up the FE and FC, with the FC being done as a taxi for its 'real' heritage reasons and I will still be torn whether to do my FE as a really retro tek'd car or keep it original with few mods.

BUT.... :-\   I also love Skylines and Supra's etc, so I feel if I want a fast car that was built to go fast, then I should buy one of those perhaps and for the same money it will still always turn corners better than a FE would.

BUT, would true Skyline lovers hate it when I buy a stockie and modify it with billet this and billet that, coil overs etc. Well to tell you the truth, I doubt it, cos every time you speak to people who love them, its almost a race to see how modified you can make it...so different era of the 'bling bling'. A culture has been created - FPV, HSV, TRD etc.

Modification on cars has evolved and been "commercialised" - which is a step away from the original car builder logic to build a car for people to get from a to b and for them to make a profit in doing so. But how boring is that. Its like telling someone that if they buy a house they must keep it as original as possible. I can understand both sides and I think as long as we respect each individual car for what it is, then we can't go too wrong.

Some old rust buckets I can sit and admire for hours. A bloke over the back paddock has chev utes and ford utes just rusting away - 30's to 40's models. They should stay like that, it so cool that they are sitting there growing old gracefully, away from nasty restorers  :D, so there is even another level to this, those like me who also appreciate undriveable cars that are just rotting away! You know what they say "beauty is in the eye of the beerholder".