FE-FC Holden Discussion Forum

Has anyone here injected a grey motor if so who did it and how?

There was an article in Australian Street Rodding March 2007 on performance building the Holden Grey where they went through the build and then fitted Fuel Injection [back copies can be ordered fromGraffiti publications ] but they were a custom made set of  throttle bodies  still may be useful if going down the injection path for some of the infomation supplied  ....Have also seen in a magazine where someone cut up a VK Commodore injection manifold and made it fit the Grey........FC427......

The subject of said article.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v117/customfc/Car%20Shows/07%20ACTHoldenDay/ACTAHD07004.jpg)
Regards
Alex

There is a bloke in the states that makes TBI kits for side draught Strombergs and SUs, the kits are only for 2 carbs at the moment (Euro sports cars) but apparently they are going to develop one for triples. The parts they sell that can't be bought locally are the special injector mounts (inside the carbs) and the throttle position sensor. I am trying to get my head around it and find out what computer I can use to service 3 throttle bodies/injectors.
If you can find a computer to do the job then it's not that much of a stretch to adapt to a grey motor once you have a set of triples.

I like the idea of modifying an already existing injection setup like off a vk engine or similar but dont know a hell of a lot about injection. I am hoping someone can also explain how to modify the VK loom to splice it into the FE. If i find injection off something else I will keep everyone updated on progress with pics and all info so it can be redone by anyone else who wishes to do it.

I would try using motorcycle Throttle bodies on a custom manifold.

trick  ;D ;D  and a Delco 808 ECU of course.

Cheers

Ed

Sounds good ED do you have pics and instructions on how to set this up. I can do the manifold but it's the wiring etc that is the hard part.
Cheers Jason

I have had this idea for the last 4 years accept i'm going to supercharge aswell. I have a toyota supercharger and an injected Camera as a donor for the computer and sensors and all the other bits. Now all i need is time to fabricate everything. I'm currently in the middle of building an FC with old school stuff then i might start on the injection system. There are a few around but they are mainly in FJ's.
Keep you all posted,
                           Scott

Sounds good Scott!

Jason, wiring.. it's not hard, just time consuming, but with patience and being methodical can be done quite easily.

when you analyse it, you really only need to be able to supply the appropriate 12V, a bunch of relays, and you're good to go. Of course a few other adaptions, one of the more difficult ones may be the Hall Effect dizzy.

TPS adapts to throttlebody of choice (may be difficult getting the correct voltage at the required throttle position if using motorcycle). or just use a VN/camira TB etc.

IAC is normally in your stock TB.

CTS plumbs into your coolant easily.

MAT can plumb into your air filter.

MAP sensor anywhere up high close to vac source.

Dizzy supplies "crank position" based on firing and timing.

I have the wiring diagram for a Delco 808 setup, from the VN, camira, astra etc.

VSS can be obtained from Perth.. hopefully one to suit your gearbox/speedo drive, if not you may need to think of something here... I forget the exact pulse rate, but it was a bit of a strange one.

I also added computer controlled fans, by adapting the Air Con Function etc.

A check Engine Light was incorporated so all the factory trouble shooting and codes can be downloaded.

I'm no expert, I just made up a cooler looking EFI for my last car, using OEM equipment.

Dean (smithy) can chime in with more info o n his current conversion perhaps?

I do like EFI and said I'd "never" return to carbs.. never is a big word tho.

Cheers

Ed

Could always just go TBI, use one of the falcon units. Set up would still use an oxygen sensor etc so would still have potential to be a considerable improvement on a carb from that point of view.

Correct me if i'm wrong but the system pictured above only has three injectors anyway?! It would be hard to achieve multi point injection with shared ports. At least with the falcon unit you can just adapt to a two barrel inlet manifold....

Would it be possible to mount the injectors in the head perhaps? not to familiar with greys but if there was enough room and meat around the inlet ports could you mount them there? then fire the fuel straight behind each valve? then you could have 6 injectors...

Cheers
John

 

Is TBI easy to set up if so it could be a good choice for me due to a smallish budget. I am using the grey engine and thinking of using better drums or are the originals ok.

Defintely TBI unless you're an ace machinist/magician with lots of time to experiment.

hence the choice of motorcycle TB's., as JSM pointed out the ports are siamesed so always going to be a bit of a compromise, so the Falcon set up would be the "easiest" but your air/fuel mix is still going to have the same distribution issues as a carb?

maybe adapt 2 motorcycle TB's on a twin carb manifold.. I reckon that would be great!
not sure if it would provide enough fuel tho?.. ramp up your fuel pressure and widen your fuel pulse perhaps and use a mega squirt ECU?

ideas, ideas....

Cheers

Ed

Motorcycle TB's on a twin carb manifold could work well, At least that would improve the fuel distribution as Ed highlighted... falcon unit contains two injectors so still could be an option from the cost effective point of view. I don't see why you couldn't adapt one injector per throttle body and not use the two barrel housing. The adaption would be the only tricky bit I reckon.

I reckon they could supply enough fuel as long as you got the pulse and everything right... the injectors themselves are capable of running the 4lt falcon 6.... almost twice as big capacity wise as the grey!...? Why would the std falcon pulse and everything not work? it adjusts itself of o2 sensor so should be able to keep mixture right. They were designed to work like electronic carbies so I think they'd have to be close to the mark. Falcon motor has the same firing order I believe....

Cheers
John

Going back to Jasons original question, has anyone had any feed back on how the grey would go with the injection, would be good to know up front if it is worth the effort.

Pic looks good though
Gary

John,

I was thinking motorcycle injectors, but your idea of the falcon TBI set up on the twin carb manifold would be much easier.

In the end, the pictured set up is optimum, because of the nice straight runners into the ports.  the twin carb manifold wold still have fuel pooling in the manifold to some extent.

gary,
you would pick up smoothness, tunability, and economy.
EFI alone wouldn't produce any significant power gains over a well tuned set of twins... I think.

EFI would allow a more radical engine setup, which would idle and produce the potential power at WOT, which carbs may have difficulty doing.

is it worth it?  I think so.. even if it is just to play around... others may disagree entirely based on the amount of stuffing around.

Cheers
Ed

If I can just hijack with a tech question, does it matter how many injectors are in the system? or do they all fire at once? For my planned set-up I'll be using 3 injectors but not sure how that would work with available computers.

Stinky,

Most EFI systems work n the "batch fire" principle where they all fire at once.

"Sequential injection" was developed to meet stricter emissions, but there is no performance gain, these fire off per cylinder.

so number of injectors, not relevant.. you run them off the same ECU output.  Eg Delco 808 is used for 4, 6, 8 cylinders.  In fact I was accidentally running the V8 off a V6 Chip...I can't believe it actually ran!

If you look at the wiring schematic's at all makes sense.

there's a heap of info on "MEGASQUIRT" EFI systems too.

Cheers

Ed

Sweet!

I am loving this thread as it conjurs up great ideas and sounds like it is coming from people in the know. Is it possible for someone to show pics or write up or both on how to modify a VN or similar harness to get it to work ie pink wire goes here relay goes there etc etc for the delco 808. Any and all help is and will be greatly appreciated and maybe between a few of us we can make this thing work and pass the idea onto other members so we can all benefit from it.
jason 

Oh and are the drum brakes they have any good or would later drums ie hd hr be better I will be adding a booster to them to tart them up a bit and maybe change to the CRS mod to fir the torana discs onto the king pin front later if they do no good but I assume they are ok because they worked ok when they came out but like i said if later ones are better then i can change them.

Don't boost your drum brakes! I had boosted drums in a Galaxie and it was an all or nothing affair, I got used to it eventually but emergency braking was always scarey stuff with 2 tonnes of car going sideways with all wheels locked up  :o

jason just a quickie re your harness idea.

firstly have a real good look at the condition of your wiring before deciding on what harness to butcher, i mean adapt ;)
you might just save a lot of headaches down the track by installing an aftermarket harness. i used a airride technologies harness wich has several spare fuses and wires to be incorporated into the efi setup.
and with mine ( 186 with 12 port black head, vk intake manifold, vn TB, delco 808 ecu ) i found the easiest way was to use the JE camira engine harness and wire in another 2 injectors. then all you really needed was power and a couple of other little touches which escape me at the moment.

one thing to bear in mind with EFI is the need to plumb return lines to tank.
plus all sensors- MAP, O2, MAT, water, etc: the camira harness has all these already hooked up i found a hell of a lot of useless wires in the VN harness.

good luck with it.
and Ed i definately the guy with the EFI knowhow ;)


dean

I know this is dredging up an old topic. But did anyone ever get around to adapting on of the falcon TBI's? or any other TBI to a single or twin manifold?

Just to add something else, there is also grouped injection, where 1,3,5 fire together 2,4,6 work together. 

Oxygen sensors are usually there for feed back when the system goes to closed loop, warm engine constant throttle light load (cruise), the ECU then looks at the signal from the EGO sensor (some are heated for faster operation HEGO) the ECU then trys to achieve the ideal air/fuel ratio of 14.7:1 and adjusts injector pulse width accordingly.  You can see this happening on a dyno with a volt meter and gas analyser.

When the engine is lean there is no output from the EGO, as it gets rich it goes up to 1 volt, when they are in closed loop they constantly cycle up and down, it doesn't look for the middle it constantly goes from rich to lean.  If the system has adaptive learning it will move the whole fuel map a few percent up or down from the original program (some code readers will tell you how much).  This is why when you have a problem on a car with this system sometimes you can get an improvement in its running by disconnecting the battery, because then it goes back to it's original map.

Just because a FI system has a EGO sensor doesn't mean that it will do all the work for you, they are basically there for economy and fine tuning the system to the engine as it wears etc. someone still has to come up with MAP.

Having said that don't be put off, most of my experience with FI systems has been with original equipment, I have done a little mapping with aftermarket stuff and its very user friendly, but can be time consuming, especially if you don't have access to a gas analyser

You will be able to adapt sensors, injectors etc. easily enough, the mapping will be a bit challenging

Cheers Mick

87 is dead right about the oxygen sensor theory,it is a trimming device that offers fine tune only,808s dont even go into closed loop at wot or idle,it would be impractical to use an 808 as calmaker or eqiv would need to be used for re mapping,even a cheap aftermarket ecu would cost 1500 plus install plus tune,as for tbi even ford engineers couldnt get it right(no surprise) and fuel distribution still suffers,unfortnately there is no cheap way out

If you can run 1,2 or 3 SU or Stromberg Carbies you can EFI it, there's a place in the USA selling kits. Designed for Pommy cars I am sure the system could be easily adapted, I intend getting this setup to run in my Wagon eventually  ::)
http://www.pattonmachine.com/Pricing.htm

Have a look at a Triumph Rocket motorcycle 2.3 litre engine with 3 cylinders I think it has 3 throttle bodies and injectors, might be made to work would then have to add programable ECU
Goodluck Mick

i converted an ex sprintcar hillborn setup in my fc 350 using motec, but all costs cash,not hard to set up efi on a grey just costs money.....and money we do not got

On the decision on whether to inject or not, i recently drove my FC on a trip and got 9ltrs to 100klms with twin Zenith carbys. But i am still going to go down the injection path at a later date just to say i could do it.