FE-FC Holden Discussion Forum

Hi everyone.

Here are a few photos of our new 1958 wagon (I do like wagons)

The family call her Thelma, she is one family owned from new. I am trying to obtain some early photos. She is very original and has no rust.

(http://i32.tinypic.com/2cpff2p.jpg)

(http://i25.tinypic.com/9tevjm.jpg)

(http://i29.tinypic.com/r8f0n4.jpg)

(http://i28.tinypic.com/ff46bp.jpg)

(http://i25.tinypic.com/343kn77.jpg)

(http://i29.tinypic.com/25jfpcj.jpg)

Cheers
John

John,

What a nice car. I am sure that you would be the envy of many people when you take it for a drive.

What is the history of Thelma. I love hearing the stories about the cars.

nice one John.

have you taken delivery of her?


Cheers

Ed

Looks good, is this one a prototype too?  ;)

 Stunning Wagon John....Jealous yes.... Envious yes...... you are a Lucky man to have that wagon in your possession ......FC427.......

What a glorious old wagon John, she is a credit to her previous owners. Congratulations on the purchase.

Dean

What more can i say, she's beautiful, we need one of those little yellow faces with green on it for envy 8)

Even an FE tragic (such as I) must admit, that is a real find John. :o

nice car john you got to love those colors
regards mal

John,
         Very nice!!!  Was at a mates place Tuesday and he has just restored one excatly the same, he won 4 trophys at the Nats with it.

That is one well kept Station Sedan. I used to have a 2 tone grey one too. Mine was called the Grey Ghost. What puzzles me is how come so many grey FC's survive. Were there a lot of the produced or do people really love them? Or was it that they were bought by more conservative people. that kept them longer and better maintained?

Robin

Thanks for the kinds words, everyone.Yeah Stinky, this ones the production version :D

Robin, it's a good question and I think you are on track, I suspect Ken's stats show a preponderance of surviving conservative colours.

From my recollection, dimmed by time( I was very young of course, but precocious ;D) FCs seemed to be mostly in Olinda Green and Adobe Beige or the various grey combos with the occaisional blue and white one. Added to this, I also think the more conservative, careful people bought the conservative colours, hence the survival rate.

Thelma, was named after the wife of the first owner. She was also the sister of the owner of the local Holden dealer, Shelleys (?) in Warwick, QLD. Her nephew tells me there is an old 8 or 16mm film of the release of the 48-215 in the family's possession. It has been burnt onto cd and includes other footage of both Thelmas together. I have asked for a copy.

He also tells me Thelma has been across the Nullabor and back twice, so she has travelled.

Cheers
John

is that the one that was on ebay ;)

John
You are good at sniffing out these nice cars. (http://img53.photobucket.com/albums/v161/LittleCars/Grin.gif)(http://img53.photobucket.com/albums/v161/LittleCars/Grin.gif)
Thelma looks in remarkably good order.
Looking forward to laying eyes on her in the not too distant future.
Congrats!!
Regards
Alex

Thelma looks awesome John!! Congrats!!
Gotta love the wagons ;D
Looking forward to seeing her close up one day... and also seeing some of those early family pics if you're able to get some.....

Cheers
Les...

Hey John
Will we be seeing yourself and Thelma at Berrima this Sunday?
Regards
Alex

No Alex, she won't be ready.

regards
John

PS for all those going to Grey Pride - it will be windy and cold, with drizzle, so wrap up.

So John, what you are saying is we will only be blue  with cold and not also green  with envy (with your wagon not coming).

Green  with envy anyway,
David

Hey customFC dig the little green smileys, how did you do it ???

I see they still have your car for sale on Carpoint.

Robin

Hi John,very nice looking station sedan.Excuse my ignorance but did you mention somewhere what the greys are?Is it Wangarra/Ascot grey?I have a sedan in those colours.Cheers,Jamie.

That's correct Jamie.

She was built in February 1959, Engine number L540520.

Among the info I received with her is the little blue cardboard card headed "Driving Instructions and Manufacturers Warranty", a quaint "Good Housekeeping" booklet and a booklet headed "Traffic Regulations of Kerr's School of Motoring". The booklet has an FC on the cover. You can phone them at Warwick 1428 ;D.

I also received a photo of the day of the release of the 48/215 at Shelley Motors in Warwick, where Thelma was purchased. I will scan the photo and post it.

Cheers
John

Mine comes up as built in March 1959 with engine number L549821 with Riff red and black interior although I can't pick the difference between that and the Fall Red and black interior of my Black FC.

Hey Pedro.
Stolen from another site and added as pics. (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v161/LittleCars/cheers.gif)

Hey John.
Sorry to hear the car won't be at Berrima.
Can't wait to see it.
Regards
Alex

LMAO!! ;D ;D
Still looking foward to seeing it ;)

Patience, Grasshopper ;)

She will registered today Les, hopefully she will be out on the 15th.

Cheers
John

In the light of recent developments, my last post was wishful thinking :-[

Thelma has been off the road for around 12 years and looks as though she hadn't seen much use for longer than that.

The recommissioning went smoothly enough, new handbrake cable, engine mounts, nsf king pin, rear shocks, tyres, pretty much the usual.

The motor had a miss in it, which we fixed with correct timing and made up some new black plug leads ( can't stand those blue horrors on old cars). The original motor seemed fine, it was quiet, if a bit fumey.

As we were wondering about the fumes we noticed there seemed to be some moisture coming out of the breather. A leak down test confirmed a problem in No 2 cylinder. So off with her head to fix the gasket. No 2 was a problem alright, there is a chunk missing from the piston top, no wonder the compression was low and the plug a bit oily.

To avoid another rebuild that morphs into another resto, particularly since Nev, my FE, isn't finished, we decided to repair number two and since the bores looked ok, slip a new set of rings in.

That was until we took the others out. Five of the six pistons have broken rings and it is clear a rebuild is the only sensible thing to do. These are tough old engines, the only real give away that all was not well was a slight low rev misfire. If I'd started to drive it the damage could have been much worse.

I have been gathering parts to build a warm grey motor and I did think about it but I've decided Thelma isn't the right car for this, I'll probably do this to my EJ.

While we're there we'd better tidy up the engine bay a bit. The rear pinion bearing in the diff is a bit noisy as well, so I suppose with a new engine I may as well put a taller diff in..........

You know how it goes :P

Cheers
John

Move over Nev, we've got another resto on the way ;)

Beryl isn't the jealous type is she? She trusts Nev right? ;D

Hey John
Sorry to hear the new wagon is playing up.
I guess you will be able to feel a bit more comfort knowing the motor has had some attention for those long cruises.
Regards
Alex

Ken,

Here are the ID plate details:

229-13079-A
254 658
253 7773
253 5300

Chassis No FC 14384B
Engine No L540520

regards
John

Hi everyone.

I'm not sure whether this is of much interest, nevertheless here is a photo of the three worst pistons from Thelma:

 (http://i32.tinypic.com/34pj1jn.jpg)

It's hard to see here but the middle one is No2, the first No 4 and the last one, No 3, isn't damaged but has no compression ring left. Goodness knows where it went ???

Compression was 110, 87, 95, 90, 115, 120.

As I said earlier it ran really well despite this damage.

regards
John

certainly very interesting John,

No compression ring...

any shrapnel in the sump?

what would cause the pistons in a stock motor go bang? detontation?

Cheers

Ed

Hmmm,where can/does a compression ring go....? ???.I just can't get my head around that....

 Out through the exhaust system ?  Sorry couldnt help that.  cant work out how to put smiley faces on the end of comment
                              Simon Addison

Left off by a dozey apprentice mechanic in the past???

Probably broken by someone when fitting new rings. "she'll be right nobody will notice"

Keith

Hee Hee...But seriously,once it's in the bore how can it get out?It's not like there's a lot of room between the piston skirt and the bore wall.Or has it degraded and broken down into tiny pieces? ???

Hi all.

Thelma arrived back from her spruce up today. When we took the engine out, as you can imagine, the engine bay was a mess. As I did (do) not want this to become another resto, Glenn at Hughes and Gibson again worked his magic, he pressure washed the engine bay, rubbed it down, carefully masked it up and applied some satin black.

I think it looks great and is fairly sympathetic with the rest of the car. It appears that at least half the paint is original, so it was very carefully buffed and brushed touched. The wheels were badly surface rusted, so these were painted. Lastly I added some whitewall 185/80 13 radials (Maxxis) to give it a lift and make it pleasant to drive.

The rebuilt and detailed engine was re-installed today. It is a fairly basic rebuild, 40 thou oversize, bearrings, hardened valve seats, new everything else.

Before we knew the engine was crook, we had rebulit practically the whole front end including the crossmember bushes. It has new shocks and out back new shackle rubbers and U bolts. The originals were corroded. The diff is a bit noisy and I intend to fit a 3.55 shortly.

From 20 feet she looks great and should drive well. I haven't driven her since I bought her in May so am looking forward to it. I now need to thoroughly clean and detail the interior. Its worn but fairly good. The biggest problem are the window rubbers, they are all shot. I really shouldn't replace them unless I paint her, which I wont do. I may bite the bullet and just replace them, if they have to come out again later too bad.

Here are some photos. I will post an engine bay "before" photo tomorrow.

(http://i33.tinypic.com/2r6ipa0.jpg)

(http://i34.tinypic.com/14secur.jpg)

(http://i37.tinypic.com/1zcokk8.jpg)

(http://i37.tinypic.com/x3af6t.jpg)

Cheers
John

Looks great John.Did any other paintwork get redone?
Cheers,
Graham

Does looks greyt :D John, can't wait to see it
Cheers, Gary

Thanks Guys. 

Other than some brush touching Graham, we didn't paint anything on the outside. Here is the before engine bay.

(http://i33.tinypic.com/vpckg9.jpg)

Cheers
John

I picked Thelma up yesterday.

Brand new engine leaking oil out the rear main, does this reduce as it runs in? Ditto noticeable fumes from the breather? Nev's new engine did none of these so I think I already know the answer :-[

Front floor mat is shot and I have a replacement, so I partially stripped the front floor today. For one of these, the floors are very good.

(http://i37.tinypic.com/2gx4bc7.jpg)

(http://i34.tinypic.com/2zssf1l.jpg)

I folded the rear seat, it appears to have no latch stopping it from flipping forward. My car was built if Feb 59, I thought FC wagons had a latch to prevent this, I recall early FEs didn't, can someone clarify?

Also the seat doesn't fold flat, should it?

Thanks

John

From memory the seat retainer bracket was changed mid 59 but I cant find the specific article detailing the exact date right now.  The rear seat should definitely fold flat once you have lifted the base up.

Ken

Looks great John i should get a wagon one day!! Wasnt the rear main replaced when the motor was taken out? i would think if it is leaking now it will only keep leaking not dry up! Also the motor should not be smoky or fumy from the breather pipe but i am sure i am telling you nothing you are not already aware of!? I hope you havent sent the cheque!
Cheers
Brett

Hey John,
Good to see another wagon on the road. It looks good. Just read about your motor and the choice to keep the grey motor, we have decided to put a 186 in ours, its not original, but should be better at towing the van. :)  Impala 8)

I mentioned in my last post that the new engine was fumey. Spoke to the guy who built it who told me that I need to put 1,000 miles on it. If it was still fuming then he would take it from there. Meanwhile it was pissing oil out of the rear main.

I'm no engine builder but I have had enough engines built to know that a new engine shouldn't fume. When the oil filler was off it didn't just puff which was might indicate one cylinder had a problem it fumed uniformly which indicated there was a more general problem.

So after three discussions with the original builder which resulted in the same drive it for 1,000 miles advice I'd had enough. So, I took the car to the guy who looks after my Italian cars. He builds race cars and looks after Porsche Cup cars and V8 utes. His view was that it wasn't right and thought the only course of action was to strip it and have a look. Since the engine had to come out for the rear main anyway, this wasn't a big decision.

I'm waiting for his written report, he hasn't measured it all up yet, but here's what he found.

ring gaps too wide
two ring sets are odd
one compression ring incorrectly fitted
rear main seal frayed ends showing and partially wrapped around the bearing
muck has passed through the motor and damaged two bearings

Not bad for a start eh >:(

Cheers
John

Hi John

Who put the motor together, a butcher.

John

Sounds like the 1st year apprentice was left to teach him self on your engine  :o :o I hate hearing stories like this when we pay good money for a job that is half done then it's up to us to sort it all out.....JUST  WRONG ........FC427.......

Sorry to hear about your problems John, sounds like the bloke was blindfolded and took a lucky dip with the components when screwing it together ::)

Hope you get it all sorted out.

Stories like this give me nightmares!  Had my donk rebuilt about 18 months ago and its still not even out of the plastic!

Hope you sort everything out!

      Sorry to hear about your motor John, obviously whoever biult it doesn't take any pride what so ever in their work.  Seems like you've got the right person for the job working on it now though,

                                          Hope it all works out
                                                    Frank

Yep, I feel for you John, as you may recall, similar situation to me, it's fun putting it all in the 1st time around, but when you have to pull it out because of someones incompetance and then put it back in again it becomes a bit of a drudge.

The thing with mine is, it didn't leak a drop of oil the 1st time around, it was a problem of oil not getting to the rocker gear and tappets

Now thats sorted but guess what? it leaks! grrrrr haven't tracked it down yet.

Hope you get back on the road soon

Gary

Thelma's re-rebuilt engine is taking shape.

It was suggested to me by my engineer that the components should be balanced, something that wasn't suggested in the first place. I had understood that this was to give smoother running, which is true, what I didn't know is that this also serves as a check of the components. This revealed the engine had mismatched rods with two being 14 grams heavier than the other four and that the crank was slightly bent by about 4 thou. This unsettled me a bit and I asked if it was fixable, no trouble, they just put it in a press and straightened it :P

Apparently the two rods were too far out to balance so courtesy of Denis Booth I obtained a matched set of rods. It was suggested that the most worthwhile improvement we could make to an otherwise standard engine is to put red motor valves in so I agreed.

It should be running next week. It will be interesting to compare it with Nev's engine, which is nearly run in.

Cheers
John

Geez John, sounds like you'll have a weapon on your hands. You might have to change this to "Only 158 mph slower than a Bugatti Veyron"  ::)

When you are done with the wagon I'll race you in Nev. But you need to do the windows down, cowl vent open thing to give me a chance. See how you go then hey!!!

Sound like a plan?  ;D

Well, things have moved on a bit since my last post.Thelma is changing complexion a little.

I have decided to build a warm motor now that I am in the throws of the full rebuild catastrophe. Accordingly we have decked the head and block to achieve a screaming 8:5 to 1 comp ratio, Camtech are going to grind a very mild cam for me, too much overlap in these motors can apparently be counterproductive. We have sent the head away to be ported and Nigel at Xtreme Fuel Systems is rebuilding a set of twin Strommies on a Lanspeed manifold, all will be highly polished. I have a Nasco alloy rocker cover and will polish and install this.

We have decided to scratch build a set of polished stainless extractors with 1" primaries on 1 and 6 and 1.5" on 2-3 and 4-5. We will then run a full polished stainless 2 or 2 1/4 " system right through.

I'm keeping the non synchro box and may upgrade the front drums, I will definitely run a 3.36 diff.  I haven't decided on a few other possible mods but everything will be period and she will look stock.

I will post some photos as it all comes together, as well as dyno figures when we are finished.

Cheers
John

Sounds great John,

Enjoy keeping the polished stuff shiny  :D

Cheers

Ed

They arn't too hard to keep shiney Ed, as the Nasco cover & Lanspeed manifold are both smoooooth.

Your a bit of a mug lair John, watch out for those speed cameras, Thelma ay, where's Louise

Cheers, Gary

Hi all,

The wagon build has been stalled of late. I was planning to use my polished Lanspeed twin carb mainfold with stainless extractors. This didn't work because the inner edge of the mainfold is only two inches from the head and we couldn't get the right bend out of the head for the primaries. We then acquired a Cain mainfold which had four inches of clearance but it was badly finished and we couldn't readily secure it and the extractors to the head without seriously milling the the mounting face of the inlet manifold.

So we gave up on that and acquired a set of repro headers which just fit inside the Lanspeed manifold. The problem now is making the linkages up to make it work. Nigel at XTreme Fuel Systems made up some linkages but we need to mofify them using ball joints to reduce friction and changing the linkage arrangement to get full accelerator travel.

So if some of you who have a working twin carb set up on your car could you please either post here or pm me some photos, I would be gratefull.

Thanks and regards
John

Hey John
There's a pic of the linkages in our Bad Girl thread.
This page to be exact.
http://fefcholden.org.au/forum/index.php/topic,9227.60.html ($2)
Hope this helps. If you need something else, just call out, I am sure to have what you need amongst my pics.
Regards
Alex

Hi John,looking back on your engine bay re-paint,did you paint or cad plate your bonnet hinges?Jamie.

Thanks Alex, much appreciated. I assumed, based on the number of Stomberg twin carb manifolds that were around, that there was a standard set of linkages used, not so it appears.   

We painted the hinges Jamie, Nevs have been zinc plated, the painted ones actally look more correct to me - not as shiny.

Cheers
John

G'day everyone,

Well Thelma lives :D The new motor is complete and running and is fantastic, quiet and smooth and completely untemperamental and we haven't even dyno'd it yet. I will post the results after this occurs.

Since my last post we have rebuilt the gearbox (precautionary), the idler arm and installed a 3.36 diff. With 125,000 miles recorded, all of the linkages - indeed most moving parts- including gear and accelerator were worn so we've welded and redrilled them all back to new specs. The carby linkages are particularly neat. I've put seat belts in the front, installed oil pressure and temp gauges and we've learned a bit about early Holden cooling which will be the subject of another post. Toying with a bit of subtle lowering and some slightly wider steel rims.

I'll post some photos and specs of the motor shortly, its all too good for the rest of the car  :-[

Cheers
John

Thelma went on the dyno yesterday. She made 88hp at the wheels :o My guess is that that's around 110 - 115 hp at the flywheel.

That doesn't seem too bad to me? given we are running standard EJ pistons and a very mild cam.

I'll post some more meaningful stuff shortly.

Cheers
John

I should clarify that this power reading was recorded at 4,400 rpm. The dyno operator said that it wanted to keep going but he was under instructions to be careful.

Can anyone tell me what a mildly modified grey with carbs and an exhaust is comfortable to?

John,

The Critical Cranksaft speed of a Holden Grey was always noted as being 6300rpm. This came from years of "trying to reinvent the wheel" so to speak when I was an apprentice developing grey motors for speedway use. I spoke to alot of older mechanics, engine builders and those that also developed them in the era when they were new. They all pretty much said that beyond 6300 was a recipe for failure, without modification.

In developing the greys I pushed a couple beyond 6300rpm, and found that the real achilles heel of a grey is the crank, they break. Steel main bearing caps, or cap strengtheners assist and stop the centre two and three main bearings from stretching which lets you stretch the friendship that little bit more once again. Higher compression adds to the risk, increased valve overlap reduces it to an extent, but the power is developed higher in the rev range which again increases the risk.

Given metal fatigue, crystalisation etc, I would be reluctant to try and spin a grey these days harder than 5,000rpm maybe 5,500 if you have steel main bearing caps or strengtheners.

You already know that it goes to 4,400, how much harder do you want to push it, when the dyno was done had the torque and horsepower peaked. If so going beyond this point is merely thrashing it.

There may be others with a differing view to mine, up to you, it's your motor, and if it goes bang, you will be replacing it.

As Clint Eastwood says in the movie, Dirty Harry "Well do you feel lucky"

Keith

Thanks Keith, no I don't feel lucky and the motor was built around the spindly crank and rods.

Power hadn't peaked at 4,400 and had I been there I might have suggested we go a bit higher than this. Bear in mind though that its fully balanced and I thought that up to 5,000 would be fairly safe. You confirm what I thought. It became a bit of an academic exercise, it would have been nice to see 90 hp.

Given this must be an effective doubling of the power of a stock engine I'm very happy with the result.

John

John , I cant wait to hear what you have learned on cooling gey motors, I just installed a modified grey and with stock fan and radiator and are worried about keeping it cool. You also mention that 90 rwhp is about double the standard, you must have your engine running pretty sweet to  achieve 88hp if standard was about 45. Gary C

I thought standard was about 70hp  ???

Yes Ret, my technical specifications say " Maximum Brake Horsepower (Gross) - -  -70 at 4000 R.P.M."
Cheers Stewy.

I think ??? Johns is talking RWHP not flywheel HP ......FC427.....

I put a standard FC on the dyno when I was an apprentice, it developed 45 RWHP, which at the time I thought was appalling. One of the guys in class at TAFE had a standard Datsun 1600, that developed 48RWHP

It certainly gave me something to work on, and by making changes from that standard engine I could see how the power improved with modifications made.

Keith

Thelma's engine is now finished. She was running lean in the transition from the idle circuit and we took her to a guy who is expert on these engines and he went to adjustable main jets, which I know some of you guys have done. After another dyno session she runs beautifully, we ran her in on the dyno and have now retensioned the head and reset the clearances.

I had her out on the freeway today and she runs effortlessly to 75 mph (checked on GPS) with plenty more to come. The biggest difference between this car and Nev which has a new, but stock, engine is that this one breathes and is eager to rev. I haven't fitted a tacho yet but at 60 mph you can feel the cam come in.

It was 35 degrees today and at 65 mph she was running at 90C. The radiator is stock, as you can see from the photos all we have done is used the heater plugs in the water pump to instal a bypass hose. This means that when the thermostat is closed the water keeps circulating. I understand that what happens without this is that the water in the head gets very hot when the thermostat is closed and steam pockets form which then pressurises the system resulting in the car spitting water out the overflow. Nev, which doesn't yet have this hose installed spits out coolant all over my clean engine bay >:(.

Engine specs are, rebore to accept EJ pistons, balanced, head and block shaved significantly, head ported, mild cam, carbs and headers. Its totally untemperamental. Here are some photos

(http://i36.tinypic.com/350v3b9.jpg)
Note the bypass hose, I couldn't help myself we made a stainless breather to match the exhaust. The masters will be replaced. All of the vacuum lines were remade in stainless.
(http://i34.tinypic.com/2z5raww.jpg)
Its a Lanspeed manifold, the headers are new Aussie Speed which have been Jet Hot coated, I have a Nasco rocker cover which was cleaned for use, however when we put it on it didn't look too good and fouled the vacuum lines. the entire exhaust is polished stainless. We spent a lot of time engineering the carby linkages so that they would be neat. I didn't get a chance to photograph the head before it was assembled, here it is on the engine.
(http://i36.tinypic.com/2yxnc51.jpg)
And finally here she is. Lots of work to do yet. I have some 1958 NSW numberplates to put on, so she will go to full rego, some 6" painted rims, EH front brakes - the existing ones are woeful - electric wipers and a little lowering and some new rubbers......
(http://i33.tinypic.com/330bcqr.jpg)

Cheers
John

Hey John
The wagon looks great with the new trick motor.
Those headers compliment that twin carb manifold nicely.
Thanks for sharing the pics.
Regards
Alex

Looking very smart John, I've heard of a bypass hose on some BMC cars, infact I recall changing one a Mini once, fiddley, I suppose the benefit would be the same as having a heater fitted, assuming it was turned on?

Hi John,
I like what you've done with the wagon, i'm planing some similar mods to mine shortly.
The new headers look good, i haven't seen anyone else use these ones before. What is the fit and quality of them like?
Also, what sort of cam are you running?
Cheers,
Paul

Nice looking wagon. I am restoring one the same, two tone grey seems to be popular. Mark_B

Sounds like its a real goer John. How does the sunvisor fair at 75miles an hour? Do the twin carbs make a big difference in the pulling power? What fuel did you run?
Cheers,
Graham

Graham,

The sunvisor is no problem as its not a factory one, it has a humungous centre mount  ;D Compression despite shaving both the block and deck severely is only about 8:1  ::), so 95 is fine.

Cheers
John

I've just bought a 62 EK ute that was originally sold new through Shelleys - is the company still in existence?

That wagon is beeeeuuuuuudifulllllll !!!!!!!!!!!!!!! What a tidy well looked after old girl. Thelma was blessed.

Dave Mac  :)

John,

That motor looks a treat, Don't the old Greys get along so much better when you let them "breathe" a bit!

I like what you have done so far, I look forward to seeing Thelma after her minor mods

Keith

for those wishing to see thelma and all johns hard work, I will be driving her to the nationals. Wish I had more drivers so I could bring three down.

i will drive one for you if you want hahaha

I am very interested in seeing this car in the flesh, and talking to John about the rebuild. It is very similar to mine. I am currently setting up my linkages, but i'm not using Strombergs so they may change a little to how yours have been done. I will keep you all posted and if you go to the Hayshed FC thread you will see the progress.
                 Cheers Scott