FE-FC Holden Discussion Forum

The latest addition to the Club tech section is the article "Supercharge !" by Eldred Norman.  Written in 1969, it is highly regarded as "the bible" on the subject and is an extremely interesting  read. Even if you don't plan on blowing your early Holden, you'll still find it very informative.
Many thanks to Ret for doing an excellent job of putting it all together and getting it online.
www.fefcholden.org.au/techinfo/supercharge
Pics to be added soon.
Cheers
Tony

My effort in putting the web-page together is nothing compared to the effort Tony put into typing up the whole book, scanning the images and so on.

By the way, the images are now on-line as well.

cheers
RET

Great bit work by both of you, Tony  very interesting reading and information.
Still have to catch up
John M

Great work guys. Very interesting reading. Makes you want to go and find a Norman for the red. Tony, do you have a spare lying around. PLMK.
I have a few articles on Normans and supercharging from old Hot Rod mags if your interested.
Regards
Alex

Alex
Spare Normans, I wish! The one I've got is going into the FE. I'm always looking for more so i can add you to the list if you like.
Yes please, I'm interested in anything Norman.
Cheers
Tony

Great work guys.  It will take a while to read through all that great reading.   Talking about superchargers, the other night at the drags here in Perth an EH ute made it's debut.  It had something that I had never seen here before.  A red motor with a Huge s/charger hanging off the side which looked just the same as a gm 6/71 type blower. It looked so odd with the carby/filter hanging out the bonnet and off to one side. I can't remember the supercharger size but after talking to him he said it ran 25 psi boost, had a custom inlet manifold made  over east and had a few problems with camshafts breaking at the pulley area. It was awesome. The car ran 11's.  I'd imagine that there are more engines such as this over your side of the country. Am I correct. Does anyone own such a setup? I'm curious as to this wildly setup  6.

Miikael

One of the guys down south here is building an FC with a supercharged 202 that has a side mounted charger.

He plans to put it all under the bonnet thought.

He will be putting a holley on top, feeding into the supercharger and into a custom inlet manifold.

Last I saw he was still putting the engine together, and he still has to finish the car to put it into, but watch this space for pics when he finishes.

I will see if I can get any pics before the engine goes into the car

Hey Tony....hope that's a short list. Lol.
Here are some pics from magazines I thought you might like to see. Stay tuned to your emailbox for copies of the article on Normans.

(http://pic3.picturetrail.com/VOL15/727938/1242234/15144901.jpg)

(http://pic3.picturetrail.com/VOL15/727938/1242234/15144631.jpg)

(http://pic3.picturetrail.com/VOL15/727938/1242234/15144525.jpg)

(http://pic3.picturetrail.com/VOL15/727938/1242234/15144356.jpg)

(http://pic3.picturetrail.com/VOL15/727938/1242234/15144242.jpg)

If you want to know details on any of these pics, visit my photo album.
http://www.picturetrail.com/gallery/view?p=999&gid=1242234&uid=727938

Hi Alex
Thanks for those pix, they're great. I'm looking forward to seeing that article on the Normans too.
Here's a pic of the setup that's going into the FE. It's a 65 CID  Norman and all fits out of sight under the bonnet. I'll get the old bus finished one day......

(http://photo.starblvd.net/~IhadaV8/3-1-3.jpg)

Cheers
Tony

Hi all. Just thought I'd mention that in the latest issue of Cruzin mag (NOV) in the oz files section is a EK wagon with a grey motor fitted with a Norman. I had never even heard of a Norman charger and one happens to pop up in a Hotrod mag.!

miikael

There's also some photos of a blown EK (not sure if it's the same one or not) on the FE-HR Holden Owners Club of Tas' site ($2)  (Follow the "View All Pictures" link)

cheers
RET

Hey Tony.
That looks like a cool set up. How about some more pics showing the inlet side?
Regards
Alex

Hi Guys
Here's an early Norman ad from the Eddy Thomas Spare Parts catalouge. This guy later went on to form the company "Speco-Thomas". Thanks for the pic Rob.

(http://photo.starblvd.net/~IhadaV8/2-1-1.jpg)

You'll find a few more pix of my setup and a couple of other blown greys here,
http://photo.starblvd.net/IhadaV8

Cheers
Tony

Tony

Great read.  I've read it cover to cover, and while I'll admit that some of the more tech areas went over my head, it had me the whole time.

Some very interesting concepts and interesting to read where Norman believed the industry was heading when you have the advantage of knowing where the industry went.

thanks of typing it out for us all to read.   :D

Al

Hi Al
Good to hear you found it interesting.
If you have any questions about the tech stuff, just ask and I'll try to help you out.
Cheers
Tony

Tony

a general question that the manual brought up in my mind:  Eldred always talked about compressing a fuel air mixture.  What about compressing air and then adding fuel.

I'm thinking in terms of a turbo force feeding a carby
(a boy's got to dream something at night) rather than a turbo sucking through a carby and force feeding the manifold.

Al

Hi Al
Sucking thru the carb is the easiest way to do it. It is also an effective way of supplying lubricant to the rotors and vanes if need be.
Blowing thru the carb is possible, but there are a few problems with doing it that way.
When the pressurised air is forced in thru the carb it leaks out thru the throttle shafts and anti-percolating valves, so it needs to be in a sealed box. This then causes fuel problems, cos the pressure of the blower can overcome the pressure of the fuel pump and fuel can't enter the carb fuel bowl . The solution to this is to seal the fuel pump in a seperate enclosure and have that connected to the discharge side of the blower. So when boost is used, the sealed fuel pump enclosure has the same internal pressure as the incoming boost and  then the fuel pump is able to supply juice to the pressurised carb. Hope that makes sense. It's not a common method of doing it. I've only ever seen one turbo setup this way, all the rest have been suck thru.

If your going to turbo a Red motor etc, the suck thru method is the way to go. I turbo'd my HR years ago doing it this way and it is very easy to do and easy to work on and tune. The performance is amazing, it's worth the effort.

Forced induction is the only way to go  ;D

Hope this helps
Cheers
Tony

Tony

Couple of questions to help occupy my mind while I rock the baby to sleep in the middle of the night.

What size head spacer did you use to keep the compression ration in the 9.2:1 ball park?

What type of turbo did you run / what type of car did you "borrow" the turbo from?

And finally the real dreamers question!
What would work best
* Turbo with standard HR carby (single barrel)  :)
* Turbo with 186S HR carby (2 barrel)  ;)
* Twin Turbo with standard HR carby (into X2 inlet
   manifold)  :D
* Twin Turbo with 186S HR carby (into X2 inlet
   manifold)  ;D

Thanks
The Flamed Dreamer
Al

Hi Al
I used a 1/8th steel decompression plate with a head gasket either side. Compression was very low.

The turbo setup was specially made for the Red motors. It used Ryspeed inlet and exhaust manifolds, a 48mm 2bbl side draught weber and a Californian made Rajay "size F"  turbo with no wastegate, dumping into a 4 inch exhaust pipe.

There was another kit made years ago which used the 186S carby. I've got a write up on it ,being tested on a near new HR, but a mate has the article and I'm having trouble getting back. If I can get it I'll send it thru to you.

"What would work best?"
The Ryspeed kit I had was great, try to find one of those if you can. Or go with the 186S carby setup.

Twin turbos with big twin SU's into a dual carb manifold would be really good. I was looking into this type of setup for the greymotor but then the Norman turned up. Twin small turbos are better than the large single turbo setup. They spin up to speed quicker and don't have the lag of a big turbo.
Hope this helps
Cheers
Tony

Tony

Thanks.  I'll have sweet dreams tonight.

That would be great if you can get back your artical.

When I'm done tring to follow Alex's shifter design  :P, I start dreaming on paper! :D

Al

Found your photos of interest.
Some I havnt seen in many years.
You give no reference to there origins.
See you have a couple of Lindsay Wilsons motors shown.
He is a great source of information on modified greys especially blown and injected.As you would be aware of owning one of these blowers, the two tags on the tappet cover of his daily driven Blown EK wagon are from his land speed setting times on the salt, that still stand ( I think)

 HEY GUYS JUST READ THE NORMAN ARTICLE ON SUPERCHARGING AND FOUND IT VERY INTERESTING
I AM A HUGE FAN OF GREY MOTORS AND HAVE A WARM GREY IN MY EK, HOWEVER FINDING AFFORDABLE PERFORMANCE PARTS AND INFORMATION FOR THESE MOTORS IS GETTING PRETTY HARD. I HAVE A SMALL COLLECTION OF GO FAST PARTS FOR THE GREY AND PLAN TO BUILD UP A HOT GREY ONE DAY, HOWEVER RECENTLY I AQUIRED A FUEL INJECTION SETUP FOR A HOLDEN BLUE/BLACK MOTOR AND PLAN TO USE IT IN CONJUNCTION WITH A TOYOTA ROOTS TYPE BLOWER SIMILAR TO ROD HATFIELDS KIT. THE PLAN IS TO USE THE BLOWER TO FEED THE FUEL INJECTION MANIFOLD VIA AN INTERCOOLER WHICH WILL POWER A FAIRLY STOCK 202 WITH A FEW MODS SUCH AS FORGED PISTONS, ALLOY TIMING GEARS,EXTRACTORS, MABY SOME HEADWORK ROLLER ROCKERS ECT. I PLAN TO RUN THE BLOWER AT A SUITABLE RATIO TO GAIN ABOUT 5-7 POUNDS BOOST. THE WHOLE LOT WILL BE DROPPED INTO A CUSTOM EK WITH CHASIS MODIFICATIONS. I DONT WANT A FULLY BLOWN RACE MOTOR BUT WOULD LIKE SOMTHING SUITABLE FOR STREET USE WITH ENOUGH POWER TO SCARE MYSELF AND STILL BE REASONABLY RELIABLE. SORRY FOR WRITTING A HUGE STORY BUT I HAVE NOT HAD MUCH EXPERIENCE IN SUPER CHARGING ONLY HAVING MUCKED AROUND WITH MULTI CARB GREYS AND STRAIT EIGHTS. I WOULD MUCH APPRECIATE ANY ADVICE THAT ANBODY COULD GIVE ME ABOUT THIS PROJECT AND ANY IMPLICATIONS WHICH I MAY HAVE .
THANKS JIMBO

hey jim, if you ever come back to the forum, can you let us know how you went? I believe it can be tricky to use the vk injection, maybe a aftermarket computer is necassary, however you coluld probably use the superchargers clutch with this set up.

Hey guys,  just thought you might be interested,on the subject of turbo's a good mate of mine has been playing with a turbo red motor for a few years now,making most of the stuff himself, & (like most of us honest  poor people) scrounging the swap meets for most  of the stuff.  He's tried many different set-up's over the years, & currently his LC streeter is running 11.6's over the 1/4.
At the moment he's given in to the  technology demons & is fitting throttle body EFI,computer & a intercooler,some people(& true revheads) are never satisfied!
Prior to this he has tried a single 1 3/4" su ,twin 1 3/4" su's, a single 2" su, a 48mm( l think) weber, & until recently a 650 double-pumper Holley along with all the other tricks like water injection etc. etc. The biggest problem has been gaskets letting go,mainly head gaskets,copper head gaskets have been moderately successful,but now he's found carbon-fibre to be the way to go for not much difference in price,obviously he's running pretty serious boost in this thing,but man it goes! l've been in many a tough car but this little Torry feels like its being pushed from behind towards the horizon! lts probably because compared to most cars doing these speeds this thing is extremely quiet!
Talk about stealth mode!           Daz

sounds like teh torrie's got some power ;D ;D ;D

is there any chance you would know what brand turbo it has on it, and it may be asking for a lot but are there any pics of the motor/turbo and the way it has been setup.

cheers
torque

Hi Torque,
 l think from memory the turbo is a Garret TO4,but he might have changed that  as well by now! l should be catching up with him at the Banyo Swap meet(qld) this Sunday so if l get a chance l will quiz him.  Daz.

Torque!,  Sorry its taken so long to get back to you,its been a little hectic lately.Yes the turbo is a TO4,but like everything else its been modified. When it was rebuilt it got a 53mm? inlet & the outlet is also an oversize item.
l will try to get some shots for you next time l'm down that way & its all back together again! daz.