FE-FC Holden Discussion Forum

I am having trouble with the gap between my front guard and door on the drivers side, the gap gets bigger as it gets to the bottom, i was about to start cutting the gaurd but now i am wondering if the subframe is out of place, the gaurd is a damaged and repaired one, this gaurd and the upper tailgate are the only panels i used from the car, the rest are different panels and i did prevously have this problem with this guard, the subframe is also a different one but i thought before i start cutting i want to know if i have the subframe in the rite spot, were should i measure or how can i check.

Hi FCCOOL first thing is to check your diagonal measurement on the top of the sub frame where the guards bolt on that will let you know if the top is square and let me know what you come up with......... FC427........

without removing the radiator and bonnet springs i cant get a accurate measurement, i tried measuring diagonal from bolt holes i could get a good measurement of (2 holes apart, the difference was 1/8"
 i tried another gaurd on, it measures 1/4" gap at the top and 3/4" at the bottom just hanging wich is better than the other gaurd by 1/4" at the bottom but still way out.
 now i am worried i may have got the mounting point wrong for the outer drivers side leg to the sill.
 Should i jack up the drivers side and and loosen it of the subframe and re tighten it ?

Leon,
The 4 subframe mounting bolts at the floor are 'critical' for alignment.
If you rebuilt your lower A pillar, without 'templating/jiging' the NEW hole position to the OLD hole then you may now have trouble.
However, if the assembly bolted together easily, then it is probally ok, as there is not much flex in the parts.

Before I separated my front sub-frame I drilled small locating holes in the upper firewall to ensure that the subframe went back in the same spot. ( I also only had cut out and repaired the outer skin of the lower A pillar )
Thus it went back together correctly, (and it was so tight a fit, that I had to taper the bolt lead in about 0.25mm to get it started)

LEON, IF YOU CAN GET ANY PLAY (FORE/AFT/UP/DOWN) ON THE SUBFRAME MOUNTING BOLTS, THEN YOUR CAR WILL VERY QUICKLY FALL APART (IE. NOT BE ROAD WORTHY).  THEREFORE LOOSENING, AND THEN TIGHTING THESE BOLTS IS NOT A VIABLE SOLUTION.

GET YOUR CERTIFYING ENGINEERS OPTION/APPROVAL IF YOU HAVE ANY DOUBTS, AS WE DON'T WANT YOU ENDANGERING YOURSELF, YOUR FAMILY, AND US OTHER ROAD USERS.

I trust you get it figured out quickly and easily, as I really like the 'cool' look that is coming.
Geoff_K

does anyone know were its supposed to move and what way, eg, does it pivot on the lower bolts but the top stay still, my vehicle painting teacher uncle told me something about this when i first told him i was going to weld the gaurds to the body, i am worried about the welds or filler cracking when the subframe flexes or moves, the guards will stay attached to the subframe with bolts.
 I need the front panels to flex with the subframe without stressing the welds or stretching behind the filler at the bottom were it joins to the sill and the top of the guard were it attaches to the body, that is why i want to get the guards sitting on in the rite place naturally without bolts holding it, so it isnt stressed from the begining.
 

things are not looking too good now, ive found that the hole were the lower outer subframe leg meets the inner sill is aout 3mm too far forward on the inner sill.

 Anyone got any ideas on how to go about this without pulling the whole car apart again?

 I diid measure it all before a drilled the hole but i guess somewere i stuffed up

by the way i still have the origional problem on not being able to move the lower subframe leg back into place.
 i seem to have clearance everywere, there was a bead of seam sealer between the subframe and firewall but i dont think it could be that strong, i am thinking of making a insert and drilling the subframe leg hole becuase i put a crush tube in the inner sill hole and cant move that hole back.
 since the hole is aligning becuase its in the wrong spot does anyone have ideas for getting the lower leg of the subframe back?

Hey Cool,
                 I suppose the only way to have got the hole in the right spot was to have drilled it last when the subframe was actually on and everything else up tight. Would have ensured it was dead on. That being said I have gone through a drama very close to what you are going through right now and believe me I can feel your pain. :(   That's a story for another time.

Makes things a bit hard now that you have a crush tube installed as moving that hole or enlargening makes it a bit hard.
I suppose I have to ask why did you put a crush tube in? They are not there originally, at least not on my FE body.The subframe bolts are shouldered bolts so you can't actually crush the walls of the lower frame.

Option 1,
 Pull back the subframe enough to allow you weld up the subframe hole, put it all back and up tight and drill through. Yes I know, a massive pain in the rear to pull the frame back.

Option 2, Leave the subframe on and somehow get the crush tube out, drill/enlargen the hole right through and get someone to turn up a new bolt from an existing grade 8 bolt. Keeping in mind that the bolt will be bigger than the original and will need to be shouldered and this means it will need to be screw cut.

Either option is a massive pain and I can't really see how you would get the crush tube out with the subframe in place especially if it has been welded in good. Might end up butchering it too much.

If this was me I would go with option 1 as it will be as good as original and use an original size shoulder bolt. If you really want to go with option 2, will need to know the final size if/when you get the hole right through. Ensuring that the subframe hole has been all cleaned up and is round, that might might end up being a bit big if the hole is 3mm out of position. I don't have mine is a position yet to look but how much space is there at the bolt head when the guard is on, keep in mind that a large/larger bolt will have to be turned down to make the new one and the head will be larger. Can be thinned down a bit but not less than original of course.

Whatchya gunna do??           


Cheers  M

Hi Leon,
Do you have a chassis kit under this car?
If you have an engineering certificate, I think its time to have a talk to him, as he may know how to help you out of this dangerous trouble.
If you are a qualified welder, treating the lower A pillar as a 'wreck', cutting it off, realigning everything with the front chassis in place, jigged up and rewelding it back on, might just be the fastest (but brutal) way out.
Get some experts over and get agreement before you start, as at this point in time, you are in trouble!!
I am no expert in this, so don't do it just because I suggested it.
Hang in there, it is salvagible.
Geoff_K

it looks like i can make a sleeve, weld it to a washer and jamb it in, i dont have a bought chassis kit under the car but i did change the way the inner sill is, it has a 50x50 box that is attached to the inner sill and also attached to the rail that run across the front of the floor wich now also is 50x50 box, inside the 50x50 i put crush tubes, i was first planning to run normal bolts but i bought all new subframe bolts anyway, it might be able to pivot better on origional type bolts but i want it fairly stiff in that area so i dont crack the welds or filler were i am welding the gaurd to the sill, it has original type bolts on the inner legs.
 previously this section had broken rite off and i was driving the car for years without knowing a subframe leg was detached, i just had this mystery knock when i pulled into driveways but this time it should all be hopefully more durable but it would have been alot easier filling all the joins if the car had a full chassis and i didnt have to worry about the front panels moving.
 I might try making a sleeve and weld a washer to it and move the subframe leg hole back 2-3mm.

ok, ive got the sleeve jammed in and a bolt in, i lowered it of the jacks, gave it a few good pushes down then tried a front gaurd on, so far it looks like it worked, hopefully the sleeve cant turn in the hole since the outer of the sleeve and hole are both not completely round, i did it in mud becuase it pissed down the whole time and at one stage the sleeve slipped out of the pliers on the bench grinder and disapeared into a pile of mess for a while wich chewed some time, i might give it a few test runs over the dip at the end of our drive way next weekend to make sure nothing moves out of place before i go further.

I am amazed you got all 4 subframe bolts in place with one outer leg moved forward. My experience is that they are difficult to get in place even when everything is in the right alignment. Have you drilled out or moved any of the other bolt positions?
When the subframe is bolted up with all four bolts at the bottom, it should be very tight in place with no movement whatsoever.
I'm a bit worried about your changes to the inner sill. Originally there is a very substantial box section inside which attaches the inner sill and chassis member to the "A" pillar and acts as a strengthener for the subframe bolt which goes right through it. This inner member is crucial to stopping the body from flexing at the area where the floor meets the pillar and therefore stops cracks occurring.
Hopefully you have not compromised the strength of the "A" pillar joint too much.
I'm with Geoff here, my suggestion is to remove the section of metal at the bottom of the "A" pillar which is forward of the outer sill to expose the underlying crush tube. Remove the tube, then weld up all the old bolt holes and realign the subframe correctly. Mark new holes and drill, reinsert the crush tube and reinstall the outer skin at the bottom of the "A" pillar. Make sure the other 3 bolt holes are a very tight fit with the bolts that go through them.


Ken

The way i have it you could pretty much drive the car without the inner and outer sills, the box section was attached to the rails that run across the front of the floor with the bottom of the A plillar also welded to the box section that the subframe bolt goes through, its solid as a rock compared to the standard way.
I did fit the inner bolts first, got the subframe were it looked right and did a few measurements then drilled but i must not have had it in the right spot and that is why the hole was out, the sleeve still only took it back about 1.5 mm.

 If there should be no movement with the bolts done up i dont have much of a problem, main problem is trying to move it back the whole 3mm with every subframe bolt loosened off, i could only get 1.5 after stuffing around for two weekends, the upper bolts i had to replace with nuts & bolts, is that ok or is the a reason for the sheetmetal screws being used?

The 4 sheetmetal screws are unimportant structurally and can be replaced with nuts and bolts - but what about the 6 other upper bolts and nuts? Do they line up or have you drilled out these holes as well?

I still don't understand how you are loosening the lower bolts to obtain subframe movement. The lower 4 bolts are shoulder bolts and as such they do not loosen by undoing the nut. The nut is only used to retain the bolt in position whilst it is the shoulder on the bolt which holds the subframe in position. Therefore loosening the nut does not loosen the subframe unless you withdraw the bolt from its position.

Ken

i think thats why i could only get it back 1.5mm and not the 3mm i was trying to get it back after 4 days trying stuff, offcourse the lower outer leg bolt was not in when i got it back, the top holes are slightly drilled out in the body only, not the subframe, all the top bolts lined up but some strip when i tightened them so i changed to nuts & bolts.

just remembered, i used proper bots on the inner legs but on the outer legs the outer bolts wouldnt work becuase i was going through 50x50 box and the big non threaded part of the bolt was too short so instead of having longer bolts made up i just welded a tube inside the box section.
 

FCCOOL did you end up fixing you alignment problem???????.........FC427..........

the alignment problem so far looks to be gone, but it looks like in the process i cracked the A pillar at the bottom of the winscreen, i just wire brushed the primer and filler off the crack and found that i had a crack along side the weld were the metal has gone brital.
 its kind of scary to find a crack before the car is even finished but i suppose its better to get it now than after the paint goes on.
 I think it was from jacking it up at the bottom of the pillar and jumping on the front of the subframe.
 What sucks is the pillars were welded, cleaned out with por 15 metal ready and painted inside with heaps of thick por 15 paint wich will now catch on fire and leave bare spots inside the pillar that can rust, i will also need to strip more back to suss out the area and take the dash & wires back out and keep my fingers crossed hoping i dont put the body out while welding the pillar again.

I believe you have a problem using standard bolts to retain the subframe. The purpose of the shoulder on the factory bolt is to act as a locater for the subframe, not a crush tube.  You cannot properly locate the subframe on a threaded section of a bolt as you will get lateral movement as the thread is compressed. This will translate into panel movement as you go over bumps etc and will probably give squeaks and groans in the front of the car.
I too am worried by your crack in the A pillar as this should not occur by just jumping on the front of the car with a jack under the pillar. The body will experience higher loads under driving conditions than this.

Ken

HI FCCOOL where is the crack on the A pillar and how big is it???? As Ken mentioned it should not crack just by jumping on the front I assume you still have the crossmember and motor still in the car ???Are you still going to weld the front guards to the car ????? .....FC427....

the crack is in the typical spot you see cracks on standards and commercials when there is no stainless trim around the windscreen.
 I did give it a hard time with the jack under the sill under the b pillar and then under the a pillar, i was getting pissed of becuase i couldnt get the bottom leg to budge, tried everything to move it including line lockers with the 2 drivers side legs unbolted to bouncing on the front of the car on jacks trying to jar it, it started with a problem lining up the front gaurd becuse the gap was big at the bottom and the front of the subframe seemed higher on the drivers side at the front.
 anyway, it looks like i hadnt got all the lead of the metal before i welded up there if i did, i cant remember wich welds i did but when i wire wheeled the bog of the metal polished up like it was still covered in lead, it also is probably why the bog cracked so easy as i have found bog doesnt like lead and you really need to get all of the lead of for modern bog to work properly.
 
So i am just going to re weld it with the metal cleaned up.

 would it be worth while mking new bottom outer bolts from bolts with a longer blank part and just tap a thread down to were i nead it incase the thread is going to wear or crush? i dont see need for a step down bolt since i have crush tubes.

FCCOOL I would make new bolts for the outer leg in the same style as the original ones just longer to suit your application [Through the 50x50 squar tube you have used ] Usually the support inside the sill is 40x40 so your new bolts should only need to be 10mm longer that way your subframe can still move in the way the factory engineers intended it to ........FC427.......