FE-FC Holden Discussion Forum

Guys,
Im considering purchasing an Aussie Desert Cooler (aluminium).
Anybody use one? Are they as good as they say?
I’ve discovered a small leak in my radiator and during peak hour traffic today had my eyes glued to the temp (more than usual anyway).  I’m hoping to be able to just run thermos and no engine fan if I upgrade to an Desert Cooler.

the car normally sits around 175F with no traffic but goes up over 195F in heavy traffic using an engine fan (no shroud) and win 12 inch thermos.  I have considered fitting a shroud (modified HQ unit) but chances are I wont be able to get the bottom half to fit, so the effectiveness is compromised at best anway.  Thoughts??

Cheers

Ed

Hi Ed,    Ben had a lot of trouble keeping the HR cool, he had the Aussie Desert Rad in it with thermos but it still got hot in traffic and really hot days. After a lot of pain, I finally convinced him to put on a large flexible engine fan  (you know how stubburn Ben is  :)) and it fixed the overheating problem. The trouble with putting bigger motors in these cars is that the engine bay is too small and the heat from the motor and exhaust can,t get away quick enough which causes heating problems. Ben also has a transmission fan cooler under the front of the car which helps as well. I think any good radiator will do the job with a bit of help from other things.            Cheers Al

that's interesting Al,

sounds like my radiator is OK then, it gets warm but will overheat only in the worst of conditions.

I will get it fixed and add a shroud.

i was in peak hour crawl for over an hour today along victoria road, anzac bridge and then into redfern, the highest it got was nudging 200F.

Cheers

Ed

just to add....

Louvres in the bonnet are great for cooling. if you touch the louvres after driving they are significantly hotter than the surrounding metal, suggesting that the hot air is being drawn out there.

Also exhausts past the frame look great but add to the heating of the engine bay.  Exhausts thru the inner guards may look bad, but have benefits.

Ed,    what you can do which I,ve done before is to increase water capacity, I use,t to get a cortina rocker covers drill a hole in the opposite end from the oil filler and soilder a radiator outlet connection in, (same size as the bottom rad hose) then weld a plate the length of the opening on the R Cover with 4 mounting holes. Mount the RC on front panel (close to radiator) put a hose from the bottom of the rad to the connection on bottom of RC then from top of RC put another hose to water pump on motor, gives the motor about 4 extra litres. You don,t have to use a RC. I used Cortina ones because the oil filler neck was long and the right size for hoses, plus every wrecker had them and they were cheap. Try something like that!!!! might be easier than trying to make a shroud fit.  Hope this helps you.           Cheers Al

Oops... they were the early 1600cc push rod motor Cortina rocker covers not the overhead cam ones.      Al

Again very interesting Al!

Ive been looking at a HQ shroud and reckon I can make it work without too much trouble.

The extra circulating volume seems like a neat trick, the only trouble I'd have is hiding the tank!

If the shroud fails I will try the tank.

Cheers

Ed

Hey Ed, I haven't had any cooling probs with my set up possibly because the thermo fans have the shrouds from the Commodore built in. Maybe just that you need to make the shroud fit properly forcing the air to go where it is meant to.

Cheers
Jason.

Hey Jas,

I think you're right.

At speed the temp is very stable even on + 40°C days.

at low speed and traffic, air movement through the core isn't so good.

Shrouding the engine fan should cure all probs I reckon.  I have designed one, I will get the local sheet metal place to bend one up for me.

I did try shrouding twin thermos on the rear but it didnt work at all, I suspect twin 12's cant pull enough air for a dense 4 row core, cooling at highway temps were terrible, probably due to restricted movement through the core.

i may even change to a genuine GMH VN water pump which will have the added bonus of moving the fan closer to the core as well.

Cheers

Ed

G'day Ed,
             just my two bobs worth, I have a custom made cross flow alluminium radiator for my car, it has a custom made shroud and runs an engine fan. I also have a 16" thermo fan on the front for those 40C heavy traffic days. My 350 chev has no problems and my motor is not standard.
                       Cheers Scott

Hey Scott,

I remember checking out your radiator closely at the last 2 NAts.

On the weekend i got busy.  I shrouded the radiator but decided to run the twin thermos on the rear.  I reckon last time I must've got the directions of one of the fans wrong, hence why it overheated at speed.

So again im trying it.  I built some nice brackets for the trans cooler (and in case i need to run the fans in front again).  The job of course took longer than expected so I may get to test it this evening.

Using a piece of paper I tested the pull of air thru the core and it really sucks the air through now, so I'm hoping for a good outcome.

the radiator was cleaned and repaired too.. so fingers crossed.

Cheers

Ed

Air, like water and electricity, is lazy.It will take the least line of resistance ( if I had a choice I would too ;) ;) ;) ).

At low vehicle speeds/engine speeds the air would rather take the easy path of over the top of the radiator and under the radiator and then into the fan rather than through the radiator, whilst some air will go through the radiator, most will go around it and airflow through the radiator is diminished as a result.
Moving the fan closer to the radiator and/or adding a fan with more blades can help a bit but we all know the dangers of what happens if we get too close :'( :'( :'(.

Fitting a shroud that fits the radiator neatly over the entire core area and allows the fan to run into the shroud about an inch will give air no other option than to go through the radiator and not around it as with no shroud.

More air through radiator = more cooling especially at low vehicle speed/engine speed such as traffic conditions.

I worked for a radiator expert for a short time and this is what I learn't from him and also experienced in practising what he preached.

Hope this advice helps Ed.

Let us know how you go.

Cheers,

Terry.

thanks terry,

it helps thanks, I figured since my car would never overheat at speed then the capacity of the system is OK.

Airflow as you say is the thing im lacking.  Shrouding the engine fan is a bugger of a job, not much clearance between fan, sway bar, motor.. you name it.

If the twin thermo set up proves inadequate, then I will use a late model VN water pump which will bring the fan closer to the core and i will switch the thermos to the front side again.

shrouding the egine fan it is proving more difficult than I had first thought, but would offfer the best airflow.

previously the einge fan was just recirculating hot engine bay temps, and the thermos were not utilising the max core area due to the push configuration.

will let you know how it goes.

Cheers

Ed

Radiator update...

Rear mounted thermos didnt provide enough airflow to cool the motor... in fact it was alot worse, whether at speed or idle. 

On the up side throttle response with no engine fan was fantastic  ;D ;D
and the transmission cooler was getting the optimum air flow.  I have a sneaking suspicion that the trans cooler was putting alot of heat into the radiator.  When the convertor would lock up on freeway the main coolant temp would start to drop due to increased airflow and this combined effect.

where to from here?

1) back to original setup which is pretty good 95% of the time.
2) original setup with minor inprovements (ie a shroud) which will be a bugger to do but... doable

Does anybody know if you can covert an existing brass copper radiator to the "triple flow" design of an ADC?  do NATRAD have these tanks or is it an exclusive technology?

Cheers

Ed

From memory,

The ADC tripple design used flow directing baffles in the tanks to direct the flow in the radiator by basically separating the one core into 3 smaller cores.They do this by fitting flow stopping baffles in certain sections of the top and bottom tanks ( assuming its not a side flow or crossflow radiator that is)and this makes the coolant flow through the radiator 3 times.

If you were to convert an existing brass radiator ( again assuming its not a crossflow one ) and you were handy with metalworking and soldering then this is how I'd do it.

Desolder top and bottom tanks ( obviously  ;) ) and make up a baffle that fitted very neatly in the top tank about a third of the way along from the top hot coolant inlet and making sure it fitted neatly between the core tubes effectively sealing off this section at the top.Solder this in to the top tank.This would force the coolant to flow down that 1/3rd section to the bottom of the radiator.Then just do the same in the bottom tank again with a baffle soldered in the bottom 1/3rd section of the tank closest to the cold coolant ( hopefully  ;) ) outlet.

The coolant should ( if done correctly ) flow in the top radiator inlet and down the first 1/3rd of the core to the bottom.Then up the middle 1/3rd area of the core to the top and then back down the other 1/3rd section of the radiator to the cold water ( again, hopefully ) outlet.

A crossflow radiator would be done the same way.

Hope that helps,

Cheers,

Terry.

P.S.  Would be a good idea while the tanks are off to clear the core tubes of any crap that might be blocking them but be carefull with any scale deposits if they are jammed into the cores as too much force used to get the scale out of the tubes can actually pierce the tube and render the core useless unless you chop into the core and solder up the hole that is ;) ;) ;)

Forgot something,
The twin thermos would work better at the front of the radiator than at the rear as air is "pushed" easier than "sucked" if that makes any sense ;) ;) ;)

Cheers,

Terry.

Hey Terry,

handy tip!  I  had thought about doing this but im scared of soldering a radiator.. let me chop up some panels instead lol....

anyway I gave Norm a call at ADC and he offered up some good advice as well without selling me a ADC.... yet... nice guy.

He reckons the aftermarket water pump im using should be binned, and the twin thermos im using (ningbo Xingchen brand no less) are crap and since the motor is dropping down to a nice temp on the highway, the radiator is adequate.

so.. I just bought a genuine red motor water pump (ebay) and since Norm was helpful I purchased some thermos from him.   He reckons these are rated closer to the nominal 1000cfm (12inch diameter) most brands claim to be.

so I'm going to try these fans and this waterpump first..

here we go again.

Cheers

Ed

Yep,

Keep it simple.

New water pump and new fans would be an easier option to try rather than time consuming radiator modifying.

I've heard from a lot of blokes about some aftermarket water pumps having cavitation problems from poor design so maybe that could be part of your problem.

Be interested to know how it works out for you.

Cheers,

Terry.

Hi Ed I also tried two 12'' fans on a V8 in an FC they were Davis Craig so weren't cheep ones and it had a large Aluminium radiator and it still got hot . My 6 cylinder with the super charger I again tried this combo custom made aluminium radiator with 2 Davis Craig 12'' fans and it got hot I thought that 2000 cfm of air would be ample it was not, changed both to 16'' 3200 cfm fans and the V8 can idle all day  The 16 '' is the largest I could fit in the front of the radiator . I have got to know Norm over the years and if you want to send back the 2 you ordered and get a 16'' he should have no problems with that ,I have a pair of the 12'' fans here if you want to try them on your car instead of opening the new fans you have ordered I am pretty sure they have mounting brackets on them. FC427

Hi Mark,

If it didn't work for you I doubt I will get a better result.

so you're running a single 16 on the front of the V8 and ute?

I'm going to have to satisfy my curiosity and see how these ICE fans and new water pump work on the setup .  I should have them in the next day or so.

the thermo set up as a pusher and an engine fan is appearing to be the most robust option. I think i'm getting fussy after briefly having no engine fan.. the difference in throttle response is significant!

im not flying in the face of your good advice Mark, but I'd like to see any difference in the quality of fan and water pump used... a little experiment before i revert back to the original set up.

Cheers

Ed

i am starting to think the two cheap 12" ebay fans i bought wasnt a good idea

Just to add my two cents worth, I spoke to the technical department at Davies Craig, and they suggested that ONE large fan was far better for airflow than two smaller fans for my proposed V8 Conversion.
he suggested to get the largest fan that can fit on the radiator, and of course shroud it up to suit.
Matt

You're on the money there Matt,

also as Mark illustrated his 16 inch fan pushes more then 2 x 12".
as a rough value a 16 will push 2800 cfm
2 x 12's will push 2000 cfm

I have no way of measuring actual flow to know how much really is moving through.

As the fan blade radius increases it will move more air as the swept area of the blade travels further with each revolution.  The relationship between the blade length and flow rate is not directly proportional as a 8 inch radius blade will flow more than twice that of a 4 inch radius blade.

so stick a massive fan on your radiator if you can fit it! 

I had another look last  night and can probably fit a 16" or twin 14"s in front of my radiator with some carefully made bracketry and shrouding any gap between the fan and core.. A single 16" would be the best but i'd need to know the exact outer dimensions of the fan.

the trans cooler would then need to be re-fitted behind the core.

Poked my head under the X3 bonnet and it has a MASSIVE ally rad with a single 16 shrouded on the rear.

Cheers

Ed

Its amazing how much of a difference a shroud will make. I had a 308 LH Torana, it ran at 3/4 in traffic, standard fan no shroud, with shroud no higher than half day in day out. Also make sure your thermostat is in the right heat range. Sometimes higher is better. It gives the water a chance to cool through the radiator if it takes longer to open. Something people tend to avoid doing is fitting a higher temp thermostat. I have senn cars run hot but a simple swap up in the range solved the problem!

I run with similar thoughts to Devilrod.High temp thermosat can be better than low temp ones.

Years ago if you spoke of cars running hot the first thing blokes would say was throw away the thermostat.It was usually more of a case of the thermostat being faulty causing hot running than the fact that the engine had a thermostat fitted.

I'm not a fan of no thermosat in an engine I must say.

I've experiance cars that ran hotter without a thermostat than with a thermostat.

Theory is that with no thermostat this allows the coolant to flow through the radiator too quickly without having sufficient time to cool in the core tubes and gradually temp builds up to a higher degree than running with a thermostat.

Terry.

While speaking of thermostats,

Years ago as an apprentice at Tech College ( as it was called then ) we did a tour of Repco engine Shop in Newcastle.The boss of the place spoke of the benefits of a thermostat in an engine.

He used this story as an example,

A few years before, Repco rebuilt 2 engines ( Chev 307's from memory) to factory "blueprint" specs.Each was built the same using same parts and factory tolerances.

They simulated 1000 miles driving on the same engine dyno under all load conditions.

One ran with the factory range thermostat and one ran without a thermosat.That was the only difference between the engine specs.

After pulling down both engines to check for wear they found that the engine that ran WITHOUT a thermosat had in excess of 5 times the amount of wear than the engine that had ran WITH a thermosat!!

I've always ran a thermostat ever since being told that story and always warm up the engine somewhat before driving off in my cars.

Blokes at work laugh at me for warming up the engine but I know better ;) ;) ;)

Sorry for getting a little off topic but it is cooling system related.

Terry.

thanks for bringing up the topic of thermostats devilrod and intersting story terry.

Sounds like I couldnt go wrong trying out a warmer thermostat either.

Ive got the lowest temp one i could find.. 80 odd.. i forget to be honest but on a winters highway cruise that is what the temp settles down to.

what increments do they come in, should i be going for 90?

its never occurred to me to go hotter in the thermostat rnage to aid cooling but it seems to make sense.

Cheers

Ed

Not sure what size to go up to. I'm about to go through the same exercise in the EK, it runs hot on the freeway but if you coast down a hill it cools down and is fine in traffic and at lower speeds. Radiator isn't blocked but water flows to fast to cool. I'm guessing its a 75 (going by gauge), I only checked to see if it had a thermostat when I put the motor in not what heat range.

I also see a nother problem with the twin set up is that you end up with two fan motors restricting air flow. Operating temperature range should 186 F to 192 F otherwise your wearing out your motor because the motor has not reached the heat expansion tolerance it was designed to run at  FC427

good info Mark.

Have you heard of "pacet profan"
check out these flow stats in comparison with a good quality Davies Craig.

http://www.pacet.co.uk/profan.htm
the 12 inch thinline profan claims to flow a whopping 1640cfm at .15" static pressure (equivalent to a 39mm radiator core).

http://www.daviescraig.com.au/main/fans.asp?action=model
meanwhile the davies craig 12 inch flows approx 700cfm at similar pressure.

either profan seriously over state their fans performance or...????

so of course.. has anybody used a pacet profan?? they look relative tornados of flow.

Cheers

Ed

perplexed by the HUGE difference in flow figures for the fans I have investigated deeper...

the quoted figures for the profan are at some stupid amperage which would never work in a car in a real life situation.

the true real life specs we would need to know are more realisticly as follows.

1220cfm   at   11.3A
or we can make them look really good and...
2440cfm   at 22.6A

or spectacular at...
2860cfm   at 37A

the davies Craig figures were quoted im assuming at their nominal 10A.

 comparing apples with apples i suspect the flow would be more realistic at lower amps.

Cheers

Ed

I'm running an ICE (Autobahn and Repco seem to be stockists in Vic, at least they were 4 years ago)  on my roadster and outperformed the Davies Craig both in price and cfm from memory. Just cant seem to put my hand on the specs, will look over the weekend when I have time.

One thing I have noticed is all brands of thermo fans seem to loose a bit of oomph after a few years and definitely don't work nearly as well. Mines borderline for replacing. No where near as good as it was when new.

Tranny cooler can go under the car, gives  more room for the fixed fan.

                                        Cheers Glenn

Hey devilrod,

I've got twin 12" ICE fans now, I bought them from ADC as Norm recommended them.

I put them on to test the flow through the core and they easily pull much more air through than the previous fans.  Using a high tech test ( a piece of A4 paper) the paper would stick to the front of the grille when the fans were activated!  the previous setup couldn't do this.

the front of my grille is about 5 - 6 inches in front of the core at least and this worked without the bonnet hinge panel fitted.

now I'm just waiting on the new water pump so I can test it out again.

Glenn I've got my auto trans cooler mounted in front of the radiator at the moment.  If I need to move it under the car it would be ok when moving but what about traffic?  I spend alot of time in stop start traffic. 


Cheers

Ed

Ed,
Transmission cooling.
In stop start traffic, very little power is going through transmission, so it will stay cool.
(UNLESS you are STANDING on the brake to get the converter up to stall point, then you might need an air flow over the transmission cooler.... motor has to be working to get OIL temperatures up.)
Geoff_K

Interesting Geoff,

I ditched my high stall convertor to try get better fuel economy and reduce trans heat as you say... but one thing i still cant understand...

Every time i stand on the brake and accelarate alot of smoke comes off the tyres??

 :D :D

Cheers

Ed

Hey Ed
Sounds like what you need is a VHT prepared straight bit of surface around 1320 feet in length, with a christmas tree at one end.
Regards
Alex

i reckon you're right Alex,

next sunday 2nd december?

Have you guys got any confirmation from Cruzin re Nostalgia Drags?

I'm pretty confident these heat problems willbe sorted out.

Cheers

Ed

Hi Ed I bought a B&M Trans cooler for my Hot Rod with a small fan mounted to the cooler it is designed to go under the car and cool the auto in any circumstance  even with a Hi stall converter and the fan is controlled by a thermostate and then you don't have to look at the cooler in or around the engine bay   FC427

Hey Mark,

That cooler with fan sounds like the ticket, if I need to I will use one.  So far ive managed to hide the trans cooler and lines with nothing visible BUT if i need more unimpeded flow thru the core, I will consider moving it.

major problems in its relocation would be excessive heat off the exhaust pipes.  You would be surprised how little space there is under the wagon.

There are lots of things like, pipes, surge tanks, fuel lines, chassis kit, gear box sender units and remote mount speed sensors.

Cheers

Ed

Ya big girls blouse... we don't want excuses!!!

Should have done it the first time.  :P :P ;D

Like this!!!

This was pre paint so the lines have now got clips to secure them to the car.

(http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y184/Fevanv6/jason016.jpg)

 ;D ;D

Cheers
Jason.

As usual Jason, showing us how it's done right  ;)  ;D

nice job.

so ive got the car driving round and it seems to sit bang on 195F (90deg) in traffic or moving in traffic. 

the fans pull good air and after a short 15 minute light traffic cruise.. no apparent problems.

i am a bit dubious about the "genuine" water pump as it looks exactly like my after market unit and no Holden stamp or part number on it.

it has a cast impellor of same dimensions so i used it.

on its test run the temp guage shot up to hot but I suspect it was still bleeding off air in the system, it has settled down to 195F.  I felt the bottom hose and it was COLD, the top hose was warm so the thermostat is opening. I will bring it on a short high speed run to see what temp fluctuations occur.

I think I will get a smaller water pump pulley made so it spins faster while in traffic.  need to pilfer a spare pulley so i can send it to the shop to get made.

keep you posted... its a very mild 20 degree day with rain so I wouldnt expect overheating issues today.

Cheers

Ed

Hi Ed did you measure the distance between the impeller and the body on the old and new pump to see if there was any variance ????? we used to close then up in the race car to improve the flow of the water pump FC427

this all sounds like something i'de do ::), spend a heap of money and hours mucking around to end up back where i started
to me it didn't seem like you had a problem in the first place other than the leak, i'de be pretty happy with those temps i only have a 16" thermo fan set up to blow through the front most of my driving is at 100-110 kph, the other day 36 degrees went to 195-200 up a hill so far traffic it sits around 190ish but haven't had bad traffic yet
i've had many many different cars with all sorts of different temp probs i've always found an engine fan and shroud to be the best solution when you can use one
i've had an EK with pretty much stock red 6 with and useing heavy duty torana radiator with heating probs, and an FE with hotty red 6 and stock FE gray motor radiator with no probs ??? >:(

good summation there Ratbox.

alot of time, effort and $$ and little result.   ::)

with twin 12's on the back at 90kmh it sits on about 180 and around town about 195 (but doesnt creep up like before.. yet to be tested exhaustively).

Using an 180 (82°C) thermostat it appears to behave OK.
I have had the fan thermostat (in the ECU) set to kick in continuously at 195F.

the clearance on the new water pump impellor to body are very tight.  There is a metal plate to reduce any clearances.

the positive outcomes have been no engine fan dragging power.
less tendency for the temp to creep higher in traffic (although yet to be tested exhaustively).
better position for trans cooler.
ICE fans flow significantly more than cheap ebay fans.  You can feel the difference in the weight of the motors.  The ICE fans are alot heavier I reckon due to the weight of the magnets.

one thing it did highlight was some of the complexities of a conversion.  The motor was set at the optimum height for good driveline alignment, exhaust and steering position.

this has meant not enough clearance between the engine fan and sway bar to run a decent shroud.

I should post a pic, it's not as dodgy as it sounds.

Cheers

Ed

Ed do you run a HR front sway bar or EH ??? I use a HR and scallop the outrigger and box the bottom of the outrigger for strength and it gets the sway bar a bit lower and out of the way. FC427

i have no sway bar, but very low and heavy springs

Hey Mark and Ratbox,

I'm not even sure what sway bar im using.. i found it kicking about in the shed and it fit up OK. If you're using HR and need to scallop I can only assume im using an EH version.

It sits above the outrigger but my outrigger has already been scalloped on the underside for the CRS rack and pinion.

Perhaps I can check out your ute for ideas?

at this stage im going to keep running the twin 12's but no doubt i will re-visit this in the future.

thanks

Ed

FB EK sway bar is shaped the same as FE FC bar but is the same length as a HR bar. This is what you need to run. It could be the same as EJ & EH but I'm not sure.

Ken

Hi Ed what spring rate [lbs] do you run on your wagon The good thing about using  a HR  sports sway bar is they are thicker than EH etc sports bar especially with the V8. I have had a few sway bars made for different projects over the years the last one 3months back cost around $150 so if you need to make one to fit your application it is affordable I just make a sample out of copper pipe, and the spring maker makes it of that FC427

Hey Mark,

that's interesting, i never knew you could get sway bars fabbed up.

Just had another look under the car and my sway bar sits inches above the outrigger.

it could be an EK bar, again i really dont know. I'm using KMAC springs but couldnt tell you the spring rate, I just asked them to provide springs that could take the weight of a V8.

springs seem OK, but the dampers im using are rubbish.

while on this thread.. how do you go about purging the cooling system of any air?  I'm  certain ive got some air bubbles as the temp guage suddenly jumps up and down.

ive tried just leaving the cap off with the motor running and letting the thermostat open, some air bubbles came through  but coolant just seems to be pushed out the cap??

should i do this for longer??

Cheers

Ed

Hi Ed I have a Snap On tool that you connect to the radiator in place of the cap then connect to the compressor and it pulls a vacume on the cooling system first it is a check of the cooling system for leaks and then you open a valve that is connected to your new coolant and it uses the vacume to TOTALY fill the system with no air voids a must in a lot of late model cars. Hope this helps ......  FC427.......

snazzy sounding tool Mark,

I may hop down to the rad shop and see if they can do this for me.

my top hose is probably the highest point so it traps bubbles, coupled with a filler which is on a neck doesnt help either.

Cheers

Ed

is the filter in the high spot in the hose, or higher than the radiator if so try filling through this, also you probably know this but if you have a heater the tap should be open when filling the radiator

Hi Ratbox,

 i havent got a filter installed  :-[

if i put one in the top hose it would be useful to filter gunk and fill the cooling system.

another thing i put off because im using those metal convoluted hoses and splitting it meant buying another kit.

my heater is always flowing (no tap).

Cheers

Ed

One of the car makers ( can't remember whether it was Holden or F#*D ) had a small bleeder in the thermostat housing in one of their engines to help bleed the cooling system of trapped air when refilling.It was pretty much designed the same as a brake bleed screw on wheel cyl/calipers.

Maybe drill and tap a small thread into your thermostat housing and fit a small bolt and "O" ring or something like that.

Just another idea to think of??

Terry.

I completely agree with the addition of a bleed port in the thermostat housing. Something we do in the workshop is to have a funnel which fits neatly in the radiator neck and sits about 200 mm above the top of the radiator. You fill the funnel right to the top and the extra head of coolant helps push the air out through the bleed valve. You should be able to adapt the unit off any 6 cylinder Commodore engine.

Ken

I would have never thought of an air bleed valve... funny as some of my bikes had them.

I'll drop in to the wreckers for a 6 cyl thermostat housing.

thanks again for sharing ideas.

Cheers

Ed
 :)

The car manufacter I metioned re air bleed valve had to do it as a replacement modification when new as early in production they were having brand new cars coming back for replacement engines due to cooked motors.Seems that when they filled the systems in the factory the system still had air in it and eventually a hot day/under load ( ie-: towing ) caused the system to fail ( obviously ).

I remember it was around mid/late '80's but still can't remember which car manufacturer it was...... and probably just as well as they'd probably sue me for mentioning it anyway!!

Cheers,

Terry.

Hi all,
               FB, are you talking about the VL Commodore that had the Nissan 6 cyl engine? (RB30E ???)

Pretty sure that I had read somewhere that the VL commodore radiator sat lower than the front of the engine due to the slope of the VL bonnet. Air would then not be able to escape from the top/front of the motor.

Has been a while and will stand corrected on this info. :)

Cheers  M

Yeah, could have been that one but not 100 % sure.

Someone here would know.

Terry.

i think he is correct with the VL, don't know about cooked engines but they have a bleeder in the head and i think in the nissan cars where the engine belongs there was no probs, but the VL is very well known for head problems

Hey Ed, The guys name is John Bennent with the bypass system.His phone number is 03 3354344 or 03 7923277  Cheers Craig

thanks Craig,

I will give him a call later.

just a brief update.

after all this I noticed my temp rising on the freeway but OK at idle... hmmm.
After noticing the bottom hose was cold and the top hose hot, Al Wall suggested it sounded like a blockage in the radiator top tank.

since the radiator had been pulled apart and cleaned, it led me to suspect the replacement thermostats I have been swapping in / out etc.

on close inspection, the new thermostats would not open as far (due to a big heavy spring), had a reduced orifice size due to the shape of the metal retaining ring, and the bridge across the top.

All this has reduced the water flow significantly. 
so I will replace these with the original thermostat which I have modified slightly for optimum flow and all should be OK.

Incidentally the brand is Tridon. When at the shop I was looking through the catlogue and there exists a "high flow" thermostat from Tridon (part no prefix TTT). 

When i requested this, the parts guy looked at me and said "I've never sold one before in my life". As he was at least twice my age I accepted his wisdom, and most of the clunkers in the eastern suburbs obviously overheat.

well... the standard Tridon thermostat is woeful.. I know that now.

so I'm back to my original fan configuration now, Have flipped my sway bar over and notched the outrigger as per FC427's suggestion, mounted the trans cooler on a nice solid mount and the fans are not zip tied through the core any longer as this casued leaks.. If you use the zip ties they WILL cause your core to leak.

I'm still going to play around with it more and probably build a shroud from fibreglass, I wont stop until my car can sit in Sydney peak hour traffic jams during a 40 degree heatwave and not over heat... I'm not asking much!

will post pics of the thermostat when i have a min to upload pics.

Cheers

Ed

Hey,dont do this much, I recently got my fe on the road again after 5 years sitting replaced water pump(its a red motor) flushed radiator a large eh unit and replaced battery.shipped to Katherine where I liveand drove daily thru dry and wet seasons outside temp above 40c no external fan a flexfan fitted years ago no guage occasionally smells hot dosent use water.RU running a decent coolant Have you checked the whole cooling system ie. themostat hoses etc. If you are running standard radiator change it for bigger and make room
I dont know what engine or cooling system you are running blow thru fans are better but are they coming on when you are in traffic?this aint hard

Hey lucky,

im running a 4 row HQ radiator which has been chopped down to 13 inches tall.
new water pump, flushed the core recently, good coolant.
2 x 12inch blow through fans, 1 x engine mount fan, new OEM water pump. uncollapsible hoses.
i'm probably just being too particular  but hey... if its running, it's gotta run right.
i just re-adjusted my fan belt in case it's slipping on the pump pulley.

havent driven it yet, rode the bicycle instead...

will start on the shroud over the weekend.
Cheers

Ed

I've just finsihed making a polyurethane buck for a fibreglass radiator shroud, will post pics when i get a moment.


Cheers

Ed

Had a 350 Chev years ago that was running fine until the water pump started leaking. I went out and bought a brand new water pump and put it in , from then on I had nothing but trouble. The solution in the end was to buy a new genuine GM product .Just my 2 bobs worth,
                          Scott

Hey Scott,

Funnily enough im having more trouble now after putting in a genuine GM pump.

I'm reverting back to my original set up in every way except im shrouding the fan.

both pumps have the cast impellor and the aftermarket one seems to have tighter tolerances around the blades to body. The after market one also has a much smaller water bypass.

It's all very annoying now..

Cheers

Ed

just a pic of some odd jobs using fibreglass...

formed the shape using some polyurethane foam.  you can make some real curvey shapes!

painted it with resin, then waxed it up before laying up the fibreglass.

the foam is a "plug" the foam will be dug out once the fibreglass has set.

sizing the shroud, it has approx half an inch from blade tip to shroud.  the shroud wont be this deep, it will be cut down to size.

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v128/Ed74mnd/DSCF0004-4.jpg)

another pic just showing the cool shape you can make with fibreglass.  I was going to fab it out of metal but it would have looked too agricultural.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v128/Ed74mnd/DSCF0002-3.jpg)

I managed to lay up the fibreglass yesterday, i will trim it to shape and chip out the foam.  the shroud will be cut in half (upper and lower) so I can get it in without taking the radiator out.

anybody know where I can buy some toolbox style latches??

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v128/Ed74mnd/DSCF0009.jpg)

Awesome work Ed.There is no shortage of talented people on this forum..... :o

Hey Ed,

Had similar heating problems in my 308  EK ute, changed eveything to no avail.Was talking to a mechanic friend one day...then he pulled out a laser temp reader (same as I use in my supermarket) and took a reading on the radiator and found that it was 20 degrees lower than what the guage said!

Something else to check?

Regards Mark

thanks Jamie,

spent some time chipping out the foam last night and it starts to look like a shroud now!

Mark,

good thinking i'm starting to think my guage is not very accurate too.  i can hold the bottom radiator pipe after a drive so I will drop a thermometer in the top tank and see what the temp gets too.

would love to see some pics of your ute.

Cheers

Ed

Just thought id add i've bought two rads from Norm (ADC) and they are great but you can have the best radiator and no air flow and it will still get to hot, on a wb drag car we had a 16" thermo all the right stuff but it still got hot but after we fitted the twin fan setup from a V6 dunnydoor with the full shroud it woked a dream. on another note if anyone is waping radiators i think the VT radiator is shorter and wider enableing it to fit further forward and under the bonnet latch.... ;D should work good.

Hey Russ,

yep im going with the flow and trying to maximise it! hence the shroud.

I've found that radiator width to be a problem as the narrow rails in the subframe wont usually allow a good  V8 size radiator to fit in and under the bonnet latch support panel.

Jason fevanv6 has fitted a VT radiator nicely with thermo fans, and im guessing it could be done with a V8 as well.  are the V6 and V8 radiators for VT identical?  I'm not considering the change, just thinking more about the fit up in general.  maybe Jas can post a pic here.

Cheers

Ed

(http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y184/Fevanv6/jason020.jpg)


Just cut the radiator down by about an inch, fabricated and welded aluminium tanks and fitted the thermo fans.

Ed,

The V8 and the V6 are the same units.

Cheers
Jason.

Gidday Ed,

Here's a pic of the 308 in my ute with HQ radiator & twin fans.

Mark
(http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a48/ekv8ute/DSCF0176.jpg)

hey mark, OK, its not a FE/FC, but that engine bay is bloody impressive. more pics of the ute please! or are there pics on FB/ek forum?
cheers jack

nice one Mark  :)
very neat fitup.

that's what I should have done, used a standard size radiator.. everything else used is an off the shelf part!

Cheers

Ed

Hi Ed

Your overheating problems my also be caused because you havent put the splash guards back, thus you dont have the air flow required. They were not put their for catching oil drips a number of people that have put them back have solved their overheating problems.

regards

Julius

Hey Julius,

I don't have the splash guards on as they didnt fit once i did the conversion.

I'm figuring they work by creating a low pressure area behind the core therefore encouraging air to flow through.  I can easily fab up something I guess.  Luckily no front timing seal drips for me :)

Still havent finished the shroud either, as my angle grinder died over the Christmas break and the tool shop was shut until this week.  I went to bunnings for a look and noticed all the 125mm disc grinders are now BIG in size.  I have a 125 mm grinder (bosch) and it is barely larger then a small 4 inch grinder.  I think I will get it repaired.

I also got my hands on an IR thermometer and it shows the top tank as being about 85 in temp, lower tank 75°C.  I'm decidedly more relaxed about the whole situation now.

the shroud will still be fitted as it can only be a good thing.

Cheers

Ed

going to canberra on wednesday temp went to about 200 doing 110-115kph and stayed around 185-190 at 100-105kph don't know outside temp but it was hot cruising around in natex no matter what the outside temp was thur/fri coolish sat hot temp gauge sat on 190
have a 308 in an FB van standard big HQ radiator no engine fan and a 16" thermo set up to blow through no splash pans but louvered bonnet

Hey ratbox,

Mine seems to act similar to yours.
thanks for the info.  i found where my sender unit is placed seems to be in a little bit of a hot spot. anyway I have a hi flow thermostat on order which im going to try out just to see.

Did you see the size of the radiator in the green FB at the summernats?  it was very small, I asked the owner if it actually worked, and he said not really.  it was something he was going to change... still a very nice wagon.  Was it just me or did every one seem to have a blower on their motor?


Cheers

Ed

 Ed, if that grinder just stopped with no warning, it more than likely just needs brushes.
 If you unscrew the two black brushholders from the main body of the grinder and remove them , check if one of them has a small pin sticking out the end that contacts the commutator. Bosch grinders have a built in cutout inside the brush so you dont wear the brushes down to nothing and destroy the armature.
 A set of brushes should be less than $10 - while you are at it, pull the end off the gearbox and replace the grease and your grinder will be as good as new.
 HTH

Hey Blacky interesting tip.

I had pulled the brushes but noted there was still some meat on them.. didn't know about the cut out, will have another look today.  the commutator is in good condition but hte brushes are well worn.

one thing i did notice was a large black resisitor or something.. and it was cracked?

the grinder was working intermittently then an electrical crack and nothing.

i will ring up for the parts and give it a go. I cant wait to get this tool operating again, it seems almost every job requires the angle grinder.

Cheers

Ed

tried to talk to the guy with the wagon found him to be quite a wolly, he did one lap in the supercruise and it was hot, came over asked if i had some water gave him a bottle and all he did was tip it over his radiator, then he's back a couple of minutes later for some tape a clip came off his accelorater, so i thought i'de have a bit of a chat, he used the tape gave it back sat in his car and ignored me
lucky he didn't need to borrow anything else he wouldn't have got it off me

Hey ratbox,

He was probably stressed out because the blown small block couldnt keep its cool and his accelerator was threatening to stick to the floor lol. goes to prove behind every good car there are cable ties and tape!

Cheers

Ed

...Went to buy parts to fix my angle grinder (5 inch Bosch - blue professional series).. $58 bucks for brushes and a resistor so bought those and also spied a brand new green Bosch 4 inch for 58 bucks.  I couldnt be without my grinder so I bought that too...

hopefully I can finish up the shroud this weekend and test it out. 

Cheers

Ed

back to the shroud.

the foam was chipped out and ihad the basic shape.
it was then clamped onto a flat board so the flanges could be made.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v128/Ed74mnd/FE%20Holden/rad%20shroud/DSCF0001.jpg)

after that it was starting to take shape.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v128/Ed74mnd/FE%20Holden/rad%20shroud/DSCF0004.jpg)

Once trimmed the mounting holes were drilled and the unit trial fitted to car a few times.  The shroud is fitted by removing the engine fan first, a 20 minute leisurely job.

To smooth the external surface it was hit with a P80 disc on a DA sander to knock down the bumps then bogged and sanded and bogged and sanded and then sanded some more....  results pictured.  I also mowed the lawn in between bouts of sanding, I didnt get time to finish the edges though.

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v128/Ed74mnd/FE%20Holden/rad%20shroud/DSCF0006.jpg)

the shroud was then hi filled and guide coated.. only a coat of paint needed now.
pic of shroud propped on the wrong side of the radiator.

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v128/Ed74mnd/FE%20Holden/rad%20shroud/DSCF0008.jpg)

Cheers

Ed

holly crap! there's more work gone into that than my whole car :o

ratbox,

I tend to get bogged down in details...hence the many year build up of this car...  If I had planned it better then an off the shelf shroud would have fit straight up, but hey my radiator support brace is not cut.

There are many hours in this single piece now, I'm deciding if it deserves a better finish than rattle can black. 

Cheers

Ed

Nice JOB Ed good to see you put an effort in to what you do and finish it professionally ........FC427.......

I think this will fix all your probs ED, Looks FANtastic!!!  ;D ;D

I decided to give the rad shroud a splash of colour.

It came out better than i had anticipated.  Now let's see if it performs...

Cheers

Ed


(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v128/Ed74mnd/FE%20Holden/rad%20shroud/DSCF0002-4.jpg)

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v128/Ed74mnd/FE%20Holden/rad%20shroud/DSCF0006-2.jpg)

Now for the happy finish... I'm not talking about dodgey Thai massage parlours, rather the cool running motor.

The shroud made a huge difference to stability of coolant temp and under bonnet temps... a definite must have item.

I also chose to install a high flow thermostat.  This thermostat had a massive impact on stability of operating temperature. A regular 160F thermostat simply does not perform like this one (made by Milodon, approx $30 compared to 5 to $9 for a regular thermostat).  The temp is really stable, fast flowing coolant does not seem to be an issue either.

Lastly, I installed a top hose filter which allows me to bleed any air out the system and filter the coolant too.. very handy.

thanks to all for your advice, opinions and suggestions.

Cheers

Ed

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v128/Ed74mnd/FE%20Holden/rad%20shroud/DSCF0001-1.jpg)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v128/Ed74mnd/FE%20Holden/rad%20shroud/DSCF0002-1.jpg)

looks fantastic ed well done
regards fatboy

My words exactly,top job Ed. :o

thanks Fat & Jamie,
Something I found out from my research was that the fan should sit inside the shroud approximately 50% blade depth or less. 

Some warm humid days in Sydney at the moment.  I may go and find myself a traffic jam to sit in, which shouldn’t be too much of a challenge. 

Over the course of fixing that bug, a few other jobs were completed as well.   Fixed a leaky heater, added a heater tap, re-wired the power distribution, added a series of circuit breakers, removed the crap commodore fusible links, fabricated a removable frame for the thermo fans, remounted the trans cooler… only a couple more jobs to go now… I think she’s ready to cruise to the Nats.. the timeline is a little more comfortable than last time.

now to get the gearbox shifting properly at WOT...

Cheers
Ed

Looks great Ed, but I reckon you should pull it all out and paint the radiator body colour too :P

 :D :D :D
Maybe just to keep the hits on this thread going.  ;D

Cheers

Ed

Stinky I will second that motion. GO ON PAINT IT Ed you know you want to .....FC427..........

Well done Ed, when you come to cairns can you teach me to fibreglass!!!

CHeers
Jason.

this is what's known as peer pressure lol

I was looking at it last night thinking I could paint it, but I may progress onto the next job, I am going to try and make a modesty panel to cover under the dash... easier said than done I reckon, will start a new thread...

Jas,
Fibreglassing is easy but messy, dirty and dusty... however the results are worth it.
This is only basic stuff, I'm hoping to progress to more elaborate stuff.. If and when required will dictate that.

Contrary to what it appears, it isnt really my favourite material. The resins and chemicals are strong sensitisers so you need to protect yourself when using it (use disposable gloves), otherwise you will develop an allergy.

The dust is highly irritant so again you need to wear a top quality respirator (I use a sundstrom gas and particulate respirator) and to top it off, the little shards of fibreglass can easily become embedded in your skin which is painful and risks infection.  The shards are difficult to locate as they are translucent.  More than once I've had to dig out splinters from my hands and feet, family and even pets feet!

but I'm happy to show you anything I've managed to learn.



Cheers

Ed

hey Ed, is the Milodon thermostat 160 F to suit Chev and Ford? Part no. MILO-16400? Can anyone confirm that Chev thermostats are interchangeable with red motor ones?
Thanks, jack

Jack,

Sounds like the one, cant confirm 100% the part # as rares subbed the milodon over the mr gasket part I ordered, therefore my receipt has the mr gasket part #.  I threw the box out yday unfortunately.

I distinctly remember the thermostat fitting All Chev and some Ford.

I am using a Holden V8, so if a Holden Red 6 thermostat is the same as Holden V8, you're in business.

where are you? I've got some Holden V8 thermostats you could use to size up.

Cheers

Ed

thanks for the info, Ed. A local Chev-head told me that sb Chev, Holden V8 and red six themostats are all the same size. He has a HZ ute with 308, as well as the 56 Chev with 350, and is a mechanic, so I'm assuming this is correct. Have ordered the Milodon 160 F thermo - hope it cures the problem (gets hot in stop-start traffic around town; fine at highway speeds)
That shroud looks like a work of art - must have a gander at your setup at the Nats
cheers
jack

Hey Jack,

I tested out the cooling abaility of the new set up on the weekend.  I drove around town and idled the time away in saturday traffic.  No overheating, it probably got up to around 185°F max while sitting at traffic lights.

The best thing is the new found ability to cool quickly when some air is pushed through the core.  Under bonnet temps are also reduced, which I can only assume is the effect of having fresh cool air pulled in displacing the hot air and forcing it out the bonnet louvres.

A shroud combined with the thermostat will give you the best result, but I reckon the thermostat alone should result in an improvement.

Cheers

Ed

You know what Ed, I am slightly disappointed that your problem is fixed :-[ This has been a fantastic thread, journey some may call it, and I am sad it has come to an end.

Far be it from me to wish bad luck on anyone but if something else goes wrong on anyones car I guiltily hope it happens to you :)    I know, I know Karma is coming after me with a vengeance.

Thanks for shiteloads of pictures as well.

Cheers  M

I'll second that by saying Ed's posts are a great trip through the analytical process of problem solving, I won't wish any misfortunes on him though  ;D

Hey mikey & Stinky,

I'm glad you enjoyed this little journey into something that could be considered mundane. 

To be able to post here and have the input of others to assist in problem solving is fantastic.  If this post helps others then it becomes a resource.

Modifications often go un-noticed and most of the time there is little weight assigned to items such as fan shrouds, alternator brackets, placements of radiators or such things. In my opinion, the greatest thought is placed into the fabrication of those smaller items. which overall contributes to a better more reliable final product. 

It follows the 80/20 "Pareto principle", which could be applied as 80% of the thought goes into 20% of the car.

I wont bore you with my philosophies, I'm thinking of the next little job...

Cheers

Ed

Hey Ed,without even knowing it your post has become a huge resource and quite inspirational with regards to your fabrication abilities.Something so simple (the post that is)has no doubt helped a lot of people to sort out their over heating problems and inspired others to have a go at fixing some things that are totally unrelated.Great job. ;D

hey Ed, I'm still waiting for a milodon 160 t/stat (out of stock - more ordered from yankeeland).
You said that your temp is now a fairly stable 185 in traffic, n thats good news; I would be really interested to hear what effect the new t/stat had on hiway speed temps. After re-reading this whole thread (which sure has been educational - BIG thankyou to you n all contributors), I'm hoping that hiway temp doesnt go TOO low with this t/stat; in which case the milodon 180 degree may be the go... Did you at any stage have the new t/stat fitted without the shroud? If so, what did you find?
Can you give me an update on this "hot" topic?
thanks n cheers
jack

Hey Jack,

I've had to use the car daily for the last 2 weeks and the temp seems to sit around  170 during normal stop start /traffic.

Yesterday in warmer weather it approached 180 - 185 for a brief period in heavy traffic.

haven't had it on extended freeway runs but at speed for a few kilometres it settles in around 165 - 170.

While the optimum running temp of a motor is 180 I prefer mine to run at around 170.

I didn't run without a shroud, but I did run a normal 180F thermostat with the shroud and it sat on 180 and higher and felt too hot.

So with this thermostat and shroud my motor now tends to run on the cooler side of optimum (180F) at around 170 average.  On the freeway I would expect the thermostat to do it’s job and regulate the heat so it may drop to 160F during the cooler months.
For my car I reckon its perfect, with the coolant at 180F the cabin starts to get very warm.
With the coolant at around 170F, the cabin is OK.
Will it affect the longevity of the motor?  I don’t think it will have a significant impact, given the good quality oil it uses.
I had a GSX1100 air cooled bike and that thing would run cold in winter and hot in summer, and they are great motors!
When selecting my thermostat I also went though the same thought process.

Hope this helps.

Cheers

Ed

Thanks Ed, you're a fountain of information! I've found out for sure that SBC t/stats are physically the same as those for red six. Asked several local Chev owners for a t/stat so I could compare to red six - to no avail... Then remembered that my daily (HK ute) runs SBC.... (insert VERY red face emoticon here) (cant decide if I'm dumb or dumber - probably the latter...)
Now got high hopes milodon t/stat will solve or ease my problem. If the 160 makes it run too cool out the road, I'll try the 180 version. Will probably fit a new ICE fan as well - the Davies Craig fitted pumps less and is getting old
Thanks for your help
cheers jack

Hey Jack,

Not a fountain, just passing on whatever I've learned.  Im glad you're obtaining some benefit from my research.

Again i really cant select the best temp for your application but take into consideration why the faster flow rate.  My rationale for selecting a higher flow thermostat was the coolant temp was increasing on the freeway. 

Normally this would indicate the radiator itself was of insufficient capacity.  By dropping my car from Overdrive to drive the revs would increase and the coolant would start to decrease in temp.  Two things were happening due to increased revs. 1) fan speed increased (although over 80kmh I would have thought fan speed had minimal impact) and 2) there was an increase in coolant velocity.

There are a couple of ways to increase coolant velocity.
a) elec pump, but this is expensive and wouldnt fit in my engine bay anyhow.
b) machine up a smaller waterpump pulley (my WP pulley is already 10% smaller than the crankshaft pulley).
c) remove the thermostat.

The easiest looked like point c.  but not wanting to run zero thermostat I elected to get a high flow unit.

I also chose 160F as I do alot of driving in and around Sydney city, I prefer the lower temp where the thermostat opens.

The gain in optimising one facet of your cooling system wont be fully realised until the system as a whole complements the other mods.

If this doesnt help your cooling issues coupled with a shroud it definitely will.

Cheers

Ed