FE-FC Holden Discussion Forum

What started as a minor overhaul, leaking gaskets has led to this"
(https://i.postimg.cc/hPMc8JDK/20200509-143405.jpg)


and this

(https://i.postimg.cc/CxQ0tWnt/20200509-171340.jpg)

and this

(https://i.postimg.cc/Y0HmJdsc/20200525-194556.jpg)

and...................more to come.

and this

(https://i.postimg.cc/VvW1VvXB/20200525-194333.jpg)

and this

(https://i.postimg.cc/RZF9gMhK/20200525-194359.jpg)

and this

(https://i.postimg.cc/XJw0rq1S/20200525-194529.jpg)

and this

(https://i.postimg.cc/XJw0rq1S/20200525-194529.jpg) ($2)

I will try and keep it brief.

Yes I started with a engine clean up. While motor was out I thought I would get rid of some rust in the front subframe. I started lying on my back driling  spot welds etc and gave up as I thought it was going to be easier removing subframe as I did it a number of years ago on my ute. I plan to paint subframe and firewall so it was going to be easier to strip etc..

Subframe was / is in good knick. No suprises. However, passenger side attachment was rusted (Drivers excellent). Once I investigated I realised that a previous repair I had done as a young fella by a panel beater (30 years ago now) was just metal welded over the rust. So much so there was metal welded over the subframe bolt on that side. All of this was then covered up by black "s...t". I have now cut this out and will do it right. I think this why so many of us now do this ourselves because we know that to the best of out knowledge it will be better than the unknown.

Has anyone got photos of what it should look like inside the A Pillar. I know you can now buy replacement panels for these sections and to be honest that would be the easy way but I see it a real learning experince for me to make these and a sense of occomplishment when done. I have looked at many photos of builds and have a good idea but unsure on what the guts should look like.

I have read there is no crush tube between the inner and out but what is left of mine there seems to be one.

(https://i.postimg.cc/7YqqT1yB/20200525-194445.jpg) ($2)

I have gained so much inspiration in watching everyones build. Rob I have look at your previous build and now the one you are on. Sounds like you are in a similar position now.

This lockdown has made me sit back and get back doing what I love with these old girls. Keep up the great work everyone. You probably don't fully appreciate how inspiring you are to others.

Cheers

Rod

Oh can anyone tell me what I am doing wrong with the photo links. I have tried a few different ways. Some show, others don't.

I usually find I can't put more than one link in a post - get that "forbidden 440" message , two if I'm lucky - use the preview function first before posting and if the pics don't show, delete one until they do and then do another post for more pics.

Are you using [IMG] tags?

Hi Rod, there is no crush tube as such! It is a rectangular box section roughly 50x50x90mm. If you have a look at at my build page (My FC Rebuild),you will see how I repaired mine. Also there are some good shots of the bottom Apillar sections showing the measurements as well. These photos are of an original ute that has not been repaired. There are also reproduction panels for the inner and outer sections for bottom of the pillars.
Hope this helps you out,
Jim

Rod,

What you think is a crush tube is the remains of the subframe bolt.

There's no "standard practice" when it comes to repairing the subframe mounts.  I reproduced the box-section, but Mal W (I think) used a crush tube.  The main thing is to get about 1/4" of metal thickness at the inner sill where the hole for the subframe bolt is.

It's a nice piece of fabrication you have done, but . . . the "pad" where the subframe bolts up is not in the same plane as the inner sill. As well as facing backwards slightly (as you have it), it should also face upwards somewhat.  The axis of the subframe bolt is neither level, nor square to the sill.

Rob

It is square to the no 1 body member.  At least the inner and outer subframe mount holes on each side all line up.

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Hi All,

Thank you for your responses. Never in my wildest dreams did I ever think I would have a go at this repair.

I to were getting the 404 errors when posting photos. I have been using Photoimage but I might need to go back and use Imgur.

Thank you Jim for the information you provided. I searched the threads extensively but I missed yours. Very thorough. I have enjoyed reading it from the beginning. The info on the box, original and fabricated will be of great use. Great work!

Rob thank you also. I am fairly confident that I have the inner sill repair ready to go (I still need to add vertical pieces perpendicular to the base of the repair.. I made a template out of a Wheat Bix Box (Very thin but reasonable rigid). I measured numerous times, placing markings on the frame but to be honest I was reluctant to cut the rust away. I read your "First FC Build" and got many ideas, particularly in regards to the "jig". I made one similar and are confident of locating (I hope) the inner hole along with the angle of the "pad". This lines up with markings I made on the chassis. Would it be reasonable to expect not to drill the hole until a trial fit of the subframe has taken place. With a subframe bolt in place I can then get the exact distance to the other a pillar location???? One of the reasons I have come to this repair other than the obvious was that the bolt was seized good and proper both on the inner as shown and also on the outer where the previous repair, steel was welded over the top. What an interesting exercise it was to remove the subframe because of this.

Was / is there a base plate separating the upper A Piller with the bottom A Pillar? ie: at approximate floor level (There is one on the other side but I suspect this was put in on the previous repair. When I replace the outer a pillar panel which I plan to fabricate from a learning experience. What suggestion on metal thicknes would you recommend. I have 1mm which I have been using for minor relative non structural repairs and 1.5ish mm which I have used for the inner sill repair. I am thinking this but I suspect it will be difficult to "mould".

Errol62, thank you for the pointers about being square to the number 1 cross member. This is great to know as it confirms what I found when I put the jig together. On a side note, can anyone confirm that the holes with the inner subframe attachment and the outer attachment are in direct line. My crude measurements suggest yes, but I need to get appropriate size rod and confirm the alighnment with the other side and also using the subframe as well.

Sorry to bore you all. As I said I get great confidence or at least building confidence in re-reading and following all your threads. It is amzing the amount of builds etc... that is going on due to this virus thingy.

Cheers

Rod

Have you got a workshop manual Rod? Have a look at the body section. There is a diagram which demonstrates as I recall. I have a panel van project which I fitted cowl, firewall, dash and a pillars off another car, as well as floor from an auto. I had to fabricate the outer section of the no 1 body member and the entire inner sills. Ultimately you need to rebuild the rusted sections to fit your subframe. This is the best jig. I’ll see if I can find some photos.
Cheers
Clay


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(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20200526/8bb925dffaf55087e0fec7db410c6338.jpg)
See how the screwdrivers through the inner mounts point parallel to the body member. Outers do the same.


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Hi Errol62.

Thank you for this photo. It is brilliant and this confirms my thoughts / questions. Therefore because of the parallel nature of both the inners and outers, if I was to run a rod on a specific side it will allow me to get the appropriate angle of the subframe bolt when I go to reconstruct the lower outer a piller.

This is a ripper. Thanks again.

Cheers

Rod

Rod,

It is worth noting, though, that although the inner and outer subframe bolts are parallel to the No. 1 body crossmember, their axes are not collinear.  Don't expect to be able to run a rod through the inner subframe bolt holes and pick up the outer subframe bolt hole.

Rob

Hi Rob,

Well that throws a spanner in that idea. I was hoping to use this as a back up / confirmation of the jig I made.

Cheers

Rod

Oh, for some reason the photos are now showing. I haven't done anything for this to occur. Has it been done in the background?

Rod

I reckon they are pretty close to being on the same axes, left and right rob, rod.


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You might be right, Clay, but one would need a "reference" body shell or subframe to confirm.  The underbody dimension drawing in the shop manual doesn't have enough detail to make the call.

If the inner and outer bolt holes were on the same axis, life would be a lot simpler.

But I remember when turning up a set of "subframe-bolt-bullets" that the inner subframe bolts are 3/8" dia. and the outer bolts are 7/16" diameter.

Rob

Rod, there is a plate inside the A pillar at about floor level. It is not structural but rather closes the gap so that if you drop a bolt when you are attaching the mudguards then it doesn’t fall Into the sill. The plate is completely sealed around the edges with sealant from the factory.

Ken

Hi Ken,

So the plate would be there to prevent this??

(https://i.postimg.cc/JhWWsKxz/20200528-195304.jpg) ($2)

This is what I found at the front of the sill. I can't remember 30 years ago but I must have dropped them. It did notice that there is no upper nut" on the mudguard in question. I could understand the reason for the two machined bolts but the threaded sheet metal one is a mystery. It looks as it it has never been used. Fortunately or unfortunately I didn't find any sockets.

The timing of your post is uncanny. Last night I have began gathering a template for this panel. Gee that is difficult. My plan was to make one even if it wasn't originally in place to prevent the misadventure of the bolts you have spoken about.

Thanks again.

Rod

and has led to this:

(https://i.imgur.com/PY2WhdWl.jpg)

and this:

(http://i.imgur.com/e2y4nyEl.jpg) ($2)

and this:

(https://i.imgur.com/TxUZesal.jpg)


Thanks so much to the help and guideance in repairing this section. I would have struggled without pointers. I was pleasantly suprised when I tested the subframe that the outer leg lined up exactly with the marking on the the plate I made using the jig point. This was reassurring before removing, drilling hole and placing in position before welding.

Now to complete the outer A Frame repair. I feel quite confident in doing so in looking at everyones builds.

Once again thanks.

Cheers

Rod

Some updates of A Pillar if anyone is interested.

(https://i.imgur.com/sDR55cDm.jpg)

(https://i.imgur.com/JFJ7wBcm.jpg)

(https://i.imgur.com/mKepAUnm.jpg)

And some more.

(https://i.imgur.com/CfYE5XAm.jpg)

(https://i.imgur.com/TJZBJBpm.jpg)

(https://i.imgur.com/SruK2mfm.jpg)

(https://i.imgur.com/5PV75HIm.jpg)

(https://i.imgur.com/6P5EdiZm.jpg)

Last one - Top of A Pillar. Placed a patch but considering the good condition of the cut out steel, I probably would have got away with spotting these holes with the mig.

I hope over the coming weekend this A Pillar will be done. The other side doesn't look as bad - what are those famous last words. Who knows what I will find under the black tar that was put on by a previous panel beater to disguise his lack of work.

While this isn't a Resto (just a general tidy up of rust), Mod's feel free to move this thread to the appropriate section of the forum.

(https://i.imgur.com/KZ34MMOm.jpg)

(https://i.imgur.com/nJ7ncgsm.jpg)

Cheers Rod

Getting close to finishing passenger side lower A Pillar. I honestly thought I was going to struggle. The repair panel as you can see was made by a number of smaller parts stitched together.

Could any tell me if there is "drain hole" at the bottom of the A Pillar. My recollection when I did a very small repair on my ute in this section, there was a rectangular type impression at the bottom which looked like a drainage point.

I hope to have this side finished may be tomorrow if all goes well.

Thank you all for your build threads. It has given me the confidence in having a go.

Have a ripper.

Cheers Rod

(https://i.imgur.com/MhDdJFwb.jpg)

(https://i.imgur.com/XY5HgTdb.jpg)

(https://i.imgur.com/kE5DoX2b.jpg)

Yes there was a slot at the bottom where water was supposed to drain from, I think it was pretty ineffective.
It was a small gap between the inner sill and the bottom of the A pillar About 20 mm long.
Ken

I formed a passage in the bottom outer sheet using a screwdriver shaft as a boss as I hammer welded it to the inner either side of the outlet. Once the guard is bolted on there is unfortunately no way to unblock it.


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Thanks Ken and Clay,

So true Ken, if these were effective we all probably wouldn't have to repair these as extensively as we have to.

I suppose I am thinking of still putting one in as I know other areas of ingress, ie: guard bolts, will allow water to pool at the bottom. Something is better than nothing I am thinking.

Cheers

Rod

I decided to put the drain hole in. Heated the metal and formed into shape.

I am waiting for the seam sealer on the edges of the base plate to cure before I close the A Pillar. I thinking of spraying another coat of fish oil down the sill passage before welding. Not sure if fish oil is flammable or not. I don't want this to end in misery.

(https://i.imgur.com/ub8cL0Yl.jpg)

Don’t put fish oil until you’ve painted the body Rod. Yes it is flammable. I would use a zinc or copper rich primer, which will protect the welds. Then flood with fish oil or cavity wax lanolin etc after paint.
Cheers
Clay


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Thanks Clay,

Great to hear. I have already painted as much as I can with zinc primer. Thanks for preventing a begger headache thank the one I have got.

Have a ripper. Cheers Rod

Well, one side closed now.

(https://i.imgur.com/Txq0miZl.jpg)

(https://i.imgur.com/nHTyk0Ul.jpg)

(https://i.imgur.com/oQXTXdHl.jpg)

(https://i.imgur.com/0oQbbBml.jpg)


I have had a little look on the other side. The inner sill extension is brilliant or so it seems. I have removed some of the ouert A Pillar bitumen that has been plastered on in repairs of old to cover up poor workmanship. What I have found in no where near as extensive as the passenger side.At least I hope.

Have a ripper.

Cheers Rod

I keep telling myself this is a freshen up but I keep chasing rust, which should have been repaired years ago but was covered up by black s...t.

I have been working on and off on the centre hump brace (rust at attachment points - common problem I would suspect). The left side as looking at the picture below, I cut out the whole section and made a small panel. While productive it took some time. On the right side I made replaced bits in situ. I ended up being easier doing it this way.

(https://i.imgur.com/l4alsxnl.jpg)

I then moved on and replaced the bottom section of the ribbed section below. When the floors were replaced by the panel beater, he just cut straight through this section without perserving it. I found a donor piece and replaced.

(https://i.imgur.com/YUcacL3l.jpg)

Next up was the accelerator attachement point. The PB just cut around this section and welded the floor over the top. It looked ordinary, jaggered cuts I suspect due to oxy cutting and underneath there was no weld to the floor or seam sealer. Great spot for water ingress. I cleaned the edges up and cut into the floor and welded in flush.

(https://i.imgur.com/8C9Jigcl.jpg)

The floors have been put in via lap welds. Once again the cutting out of the old floor wasn't pretty at all. I have cleaned this up it reasonably well so the line is relatively straight, re-welding as I went.

(https://i.imgur.com/mqPYEbdl.jpg)

I am still to clean up the welds. Gee I just seem to leave those jobs. Not something I like doing.

Here is a question for you all. The seams where the lap welds are, are ok, but definitley not as pleasing on the eye as if they were butt welded. I am thinking of putting a small amount of body filler to clean up the lines somewhat but suspect over time there maybe a little movement which will cause small cracks etc.. Alternatively I am thinking of just applying seam sealer over the lines due to the sealer qualities and flexibiltiy. However it won't look as clean I am sure. What have others done with lap joints in floors or what would would you suggest?

Many thanks Cheers

Rod

Rod,

Seam sealer stays flexible, and if you apply it liberally and work well into the joint, it will do as intended.  Just avoid the temptation to run it into the seams with your fingers.  Red seam sealer is not recommended.

Rob

Familiar story on the bitumen plastering rod. Good progress.


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And has led to this -

(https://i.imgur.com/bz3udRyb.jpg)

and this -

(https://i.imgur.com/q3NELWKb.jpg)

and -

(https://i.imgur.com/xYA74CZb.jpg).

Finally back into it again. I wasn't going to tackle the driver side a A Pillar too much as there was only a few pin holes here and there. Once again I am glad I did because there was some dodgy repairs once again under the black s...t. Inside is remarkably good. I won't need to make a end sill / subframe mount point. other than cleaning the surface rust up and seall accordingly. I have included photos for future reference for anyone as when I was doing the passenger side I was initially doing so blindly without knowing fully what the end of the inner sill looked like. You can see the factory base plate as I spoke about in a previous thread. This side shouldn't take as long to  repair.

Has anyone got any pointers on making the end of the part that holds the winlace in place and the side kick panel. In the previous repair as you can see it was discarded. Other than finding a donor panel (which I am sure will be difficcult as this is possibly a rust area), I will need to make this section. If it was straight I think it is doable but it has a slight curve towards the end and I haven't got a stretcher / shrinker.

(https://i.imgur.com/8YMdfOOb.jpg)

Complements of the season to you all.

Cheers Rod

Well ended up making the panel for the extension to the windlace. It was a bit fiddly but got there is in the end. It needs a little cleaning up but better than what it was.

(https://i.imgur.com/ba6mojab.jpg)

(https://i.imgur.com/sJ43z7ib.jpg)

(https://i.imgur.com/39EbnRdb.jpg)

I have made a little progress on the A Pillar Bottom. Cleaned up best I could do and made a small internal panel.

(https://i.imgur.com/IOOs7dPb.jpg)

(https://i.imgur.com/a395Kwmb.jpg)

Hopefully next post will be a completed A Pillar which will be the end of the "touch up" or should I say the remedy of dodgy previous repairs.

Happy New Yeat to you All.

Cheers

Rod

The drivers side a pillar is now closed. A little tidy up is in order along with seam sealer in the apropriate places but happy where I got to.

A few additional rust areas at the top of the a pillar were attended to which which I wasn't aware of initally.

From hear it will be time to strip the fire wall and paint and likewise with the subframe. At that point I should be back to "freshening up the motor".

(https://i.imgur.com/AmZvG5Ol.jpg)

(https://i.imgur.com/4zWqVjdl.jpg)

(https://i.imgur.com/WN3D4Uvl.jpg)

Rod,

Brilliant.  You don't by any chance have a replicator, do you?

I guess you made it up out of three pieces of sheet, and then welded them together.

Rob

Hi Rob,

Yes I made the panel out out three pieces welded together. I was fortunate that the lower a pillar external part was relatively intact even though there was some dodgy repairs and rust present. As a result making the template for each of the three pieces was made easy even if it was time consuming in doing so. In hindsight I wished I had started on the drivers side before tackling the passenger side which was more difficult especially as the inner sill extension needed to be fabricated.

I have been following your thread intently and gaining much knowledge and inspiation. Keep up the great work. It is interesting to note that in your recent thread about repairing your lower a pillar that you mention the outer lower isn't spot welded to the box section spacer. When doing mine, I found the external panel and the tongue of the sill panel attachment were both spot welded onto the box section. Maybe this is one of the those anamolies between the FE and FC models or more so between different factories. However on my repair I did not include plug welds after I read you thread. By the way I like the way in which you used the 7/16 bolt to hold this section in place. It prevents you making a jig etc in ensuring everything is in alignment come the subframe reattachment. That was my biggest headache when I did the passenger side repair.

Keep up the great work. Cheers Rod

Decided to have a break from welding, grinding and stripping paint. Inspired by Clay and Brett over at FB / EK i have decided to clean the sterring box up. I was initially tempted to get a Rares kit to put through it but decided to hold off until I inspected the internals. I am glad I did. The pitman shaft lash adjuster was screwed all the way out. I read in a thread with a reply from Ken that this is a good sign, showing possibly little wear. I had fingers crossed. After removing the grease I couldn't believe how good the condition is of all moving parts. There was no sign of pitting or wear that I could find under a magnifying glass.

The only concern was the bush in the cover housing. It came out of the housing once I remover the cover. I hope this will be ok as this bush isn't included in the rares kit anyway. I have ordered a lower seal to replace the original from the local bearing place before reassembling.

Can anyone tell me what this part is?

(https://i.imgur.com/JXvwrgVl.jpg)

It is made of rubber about 20mm in length with the same diameter as the shaft. I found it on the shaft at the bottom at the upper seal level. I have looked in the repair manual at it looks to be a steering shaft anti rattler. If this is it, where abouts should this be located?

The upper felt seal (at the botom of the tube) looks to be in very good condition. Would it be appropriate to soak this in oil to swell the seal to make a tigher fit for the selector shaft. I don't want dirt an grit to find its way in the box.

Have a ripper.

Cheers

Rod

Rod,

The mystery part is an anti-rattle.  It should be midway along the steering shaft.  If yours is loose, go to Jaycar and get some 3/4" diameter self-adhesive heatshrink tubing and put it on the steering shaft, with a hot-air gun.

The loose bush in the top cover is a concern.  It may be easier to find another top cover.  But if you want to use the same top cover, bushes are available from Statewide Bearings in Wetherill Park.  (But you'd need to get the bush shortened, and then it would need reaming to size.)

Don't soak the felt in oil.  It's a dust seal, and prevents dust getting up between the gearshift tube and the steering column jacket.  The steering box is sealed against grit entry by another seal which the gearshift tube runs in.

And finally, you'd be best off re-using the original sector shaft seal, if you haven't damaged it during removal.

Rob

Good stuff Rod. Thanks for the update.
Cheers,
Clay


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Hi Rob,

Thanks as usual for your great insight. I did so some additional reading in the manual and I found reference to the anti rattle in that it is to be placed 21" below the top of the steering shaft. It is loose as you have hinted and definitely would not stay in that position. When you say use heatshrink are your referring to use it on the shaft and then place the anti rattle over it (ie: use it to take up the slack) or conversely place the anti rattle on first then the heatshrink over the top?

The seal I was referring to is the one that seperates the lower tube from the box (ie: the one the selector tube runs through). The tube is a little loose between the seal and I was worried dirt / dust or water may get past into the box hence my question about using oil to swell this a little.

I haven't taken the old sector shaft seal out yet. The mating surface on the shaft is like brand new - not pits or rust present. The seal may be ok.

I might try and get another top. It is murphy's law - I was looking at the bush tonight and pushed it into the recess and bugger me I can't get it out now. I was initially thinking of pushing this home with some loctite on the mating surfaces.

Thanks again for you time in passing on your knowledge.

Cheers

Rod

Rod,

So it's the lower seal on the gearshift tube.  In that case, some oil would be a good thing.

And I was thinking just to use one or two pieces of heatshrink on its own as the anti-rattle.

Rob

Steering column is now together. Just need to wait until I install it before making the final adjustments.

Today was spent stripping the firewall in preparation for paint. I need to clean up a couple of welds (pin holes) and should be ready to go. I have searched high and low through the forum threads (I am sure I have seen reference) in regards to the painting of the ID Plate. Should this be painted? It was painted prior to stripping but I suspect this was painted over when a respray was done. I found all the original paint under the top coat of the firewall but did not find any evidence on the id plate. This has me thinking that it wasn't painted originally. (My FC ute confuses me as the plate is painted).

I have the subframe to strip of paint. I am starting to think that getting it sandblasted will be the best option rather than spending hours doing it personally.

Have a ripper. Rod

In general, Adelaide and Melbourne plates were painted, Sydney plates were not. There are exceptions to this so it can be personal preference.
You have to be careful when deciding to paint because if the plate is given the full treatment of undercoats and top coats you can lose all the printing.

Thank you so much again Ken. Body is Adelaide built and subframe is Melbourne. With that in mind I have prepared the firewall for a full coat of paint including the id plate. I have taken on board your info about the coats of paint on the id plate and have done so sparingly to keep the lettering intact. Priming coats have been done and hopefully tomorrow Iwill get the chance to lay down the top coats.

Cheers Rod

Firewall and A Pillars now have paint. What a relief to see the end of rust. Yes there will be more if I go looking for it towards the rear end but at least I now can get the subframe blasted and painted and put the motor in to get moving. Still many hours (and money ahead).

Cheers Rod

(https://i.imgur.com/fym3vXAl.jpg)

(https://i.imgur.com/ZyacHx8l.jpg)

(https://i.imgur.com/laWTK00l.jpg)

Great work, that's looking so bloody good.  Paint does make a big differences

Thanks Cam. It sure is good to see the paint. Much better than what was there in the first place - leaking master cylinders damage etc... I am happy how it came out to be honest. I was going to cut and buff it but it there is a great shine as it is.

I have now turned my attention to the door hinges so I can get the doors back hanging. I have got the rares kit ready to go. I always like looking at anomolies like the current Maloo at auction. I also just watched a Shannon episode of a custom EH, one of a kind Caddy  Pink colour made for an American CEO. Anyway I have looked at my hinges and there is some wear on the arms of the top hinge where it engages with the springs. I had planned to weld / fill and grind back but thought I would go to a couple of spare hinges I have got and see how much wear they have (no noticable wear). When I picked them up I felt a difference in their weight and sure enough when I compared the cross sectional size of the arm there was a noticable difference as well.

(https://i.imgur.com/8y2SKPFl.jpg)

(https://i.imgur.com/akbTcwml.jpg)

I suspect that the larger ones are FB / EK as there are two entries in the Masters Parts Book. I then measured them and also took a measure on my FC ute as a comparison.

FE Sedan - 8.2 to 8.5mm.
Spare Hinges - (which I suspect were originally on the ute as I can remember the previous owner was going to change some out - colour also confirms) - Approximately 10mm
FC Utes - Approximately 10mm. (I measured all 4 hinges).

What I can ascertain is the following:
1. There is a difference in the size of the FE / FC hinges compared to the FB / EK. Maybe this was for greater strength for the later models (are their doors heavier?)
2. As my FC Ute is late in the production run possibly the factory had run out of FE / FC hinges and started using the FB / EK ones which by then would have been in production.

So where does this leave me. I think I am back to the original plan by is filling the wear section on the arms as I am am unsure in mixing different hinge types is goin to be a good ideal.

No doubt Ken may be able to shed some light on this.

Have a ripper weekend.

Cheers Rod

I have seen the different door hinges Rod, and although there is no specific reference anywhere that I’ve found, I think the hinges changed over during the FC run somewhere. When I had boxes of spare hinges there was usually about half / half in my stash. I think FB EK hinges have a different part number because where they bolt on is different.
However, try to use your original hinges if possible. The door gaps are adjusted in the factory by bending them so you may get some unintended results by swapping them.

Ken

Thanks so much Ken for the clarification.

I was looking at these as on the drivers side I have severe door sag. I adjusted many times over the years but could never get it anywhere close to being right. I succumbed and everytime I closed the door I would lift it in order for it to go into the striker. Once I removed, recently, to be honest I couldn't  see any noticable movement or wear in the the hinges. I am going to replace the bushes but are going to reuse the pins. I have decided to reuse the pins as they are approximately 0.1-0.2 mm larger in diameter than the rare pins.

Time will tell I hope if the sag is removed.

Cheers Rod

Subframe has been blasted, primed and coated. Was a little disappointed with the fine sand in the top coat in places. This was after spending a lot of time cleaning the rails etc....Grrrr.

Now is the time to put it back on. I went on loke a glove is and trial fit. Knowing how things turn out, I recon I will have trouble doing so.

(https://i.imgur.com/2v1a776l.jpg)

(https://i.imgur.com/2Eqk5fwl.jpg)

While I am at it, I have found a little upgrade from the FE (mine) to the FC in the gear box expection plate. The FE had / has "Self Taper" type screws while the FC (my ute) has machined screws ie: Nuts welding onto the firewall. (I hope I have used correct terminology.) Has anyone retro fitted nuts to the firewall as I recon a few of my current screw holes are enlarged / stripped to a degree. This would be the reason for the change I suppose between the two models.

Have a ripper. Cheers Rod

Rod,

You could fit captive nuts, or weld nuts onto the firewall.  But you can't change transmission covers between models.  The one with self-tappers has eight screws; the one with machine screws has ten.

Rob

Subframe is now in place. Somewhat a relief after having to manufacture one A Pillar Bottom / Inner Sill End (pasenger side). The alignment was spot on, but the outer leg was about 1 mm shy of the mounting point. Pulled in beautifully.

(https://i.imgur.com/wJKJuXel.jpg)

I keep looking at the title of this thread - Engine Freshen Up. Gee I haven't even got back to that, but starting to see some light at the end of the tunnel.

Cheers Rod

Not much has happened of late. Life has got in the way. Another hobby of mine is athletics coaching. With our season now over (concluded last weekend with the Stawell Easter Gift), I can get back into it.

I have started stripping the floor and you guessed it, poor workmanship disguished as bitumen. I have found a section of the tunnel which wasn't repaired. A patch will fix this. The floor pans are put in with a lap joint. This has been done poorly with small tac welds every 3-4 inches (when I put pressure on the floor pan it creaks around the joints). I am considering cutting along the edge of the joint and converting to a butt joint. I will only be able to do this if the floor hasn't been welded from the bottom. I suspect that this will be the case knowing what else I have seen before - short cuts. In addition I have found oil from a leaking rear main etc... has made its way inside through the lap joint (at least it has protected this area from rust!). I will investigate further today to see what it looks like from the bottom.

Anyway I thought I would share something that I have found. My wife and I were married just over 29 years ago. This FE was our bridle car. In addition we had a 48-215, an EH and my father in laws HG. One car from the 40's, 50's, 60's and 70's. On a side note. The 48-215 was a very early build (low number). Its then owner had purchased it from brand new as he was the owner of the local dealership / garage in the small Victorian town of Jepart. He was a next door neighbour of my inlaws and I often admired this car. It was like brand new and never touched. When it wasn't brought out for special ocassions, it was up on blocks. If anyone has one of Don Loflers early books I would appreciate if you could let me know of its build date and body number. All I know it was one of the earlier builds. I have looked through my copy of She's a Beuty" but I can't find reference to it. I have read about it in one of his books.

I have digressed slightly. When I pulled out the balk seat I was presented with the following as a reminder of our special day.

(https://i.imgur.com/tzrIpt8m.jpg)


I have bagged up the confetti and will put back under the seat when I finish the tidy up for others to wonder when I am long gone.

Cheers Rod

Mate....  that’s a beauty 87) 87)


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Thanks Clay. Memories!!!

On holidays so decided to do some repairs / alterations to the floor pans as mentioned previously. I wasn't as fortunate as I was hoping about not having tack welds underneath. I have been working on the passenger rear and not too far away from completing the butt weld adjustments. Would have been done if it was not for:
1. Tack Welds underneath on join between the old floor and the replacement pan and
2. More rust (see below)

(https://i.imgur.com/rLLTCeDm.jpg)

(https://i.imgur.com/7Sd5dQ2m.jpg)

(https://i.imgur.com/vVfTQi4m.jpg)

(https://i.imgur.com/KiB1z4Lm.jpg)

I have seen some dodgy things but the last one was a ripper. The hole was filled with bog (most of it fell out) and then a patch welded over the top. Grrr.

I now need to get my head around making a patch to fill this area now. It needs to go back a reasonable distance where the pin holes are. To be honest I am struggling to get my head around how I will do this. Gee I attacked the bottom of the A Pillers, but this is doing my head in.

Until next time.

Cheers Rod

Well what a week that has been! Stripped floor of black s..t, converted most of the lap joints to butt joints, cut some rust out, seam seal joints and prepped and painted the floor. I still need to dress the joints from underneath but will do this when the car is mobile and I can run it up on ramps.

Interestingly some of the butt joints had evident of rust eventhough the car has hardly seen water when I restored her 30 odd years ago. Oh, the joints exposed to oil had no evidence- haha.

When stripping the floor I found the following.

(https://i.imgur.com/7vcFTeXm.jpg)

This is a Rares floor pan from 35 years ago and they are still running the same part numbers.

(https://i.imgur.com/HNKZzdYm.jpg)

Got side tracked today waiting for paint to dry. I recently purchased two radiators very cheaply, a two core and a three core. I thought stuff it and I took the top tank off to clean the cores of the two core one. Cleaned most cores but not most. I then took the bottom tank off to finish off the ones that I could clean from the top. These weren't entirely blocked by scale but by old solder when the bottom tank was originally put on. I decided to have a go at this as I thought I have nothing to loose as the radiators were cheap. If I stuff up, it has been a learning experience. I have had experience with Rad shops in recent years where I have dropped off perfectly fine and functioning radiators for a precautionery, clean only to be told that they need a recore. I got the impression it was much easier and cost effective for the business to do this rather than rodding the cores hence why I thought I would have a play myself. Next step is to replace the tanks and pressure test to see if I havent stuffed up. More to come.

(https://i.imgur.com/zX8fORjm.jpg)

(https://i.imgur.com/PhkDwwBm.jpg)

(https://i.imgur.com/3hPnKLjm.jpg)

Until then.

Cheers Rod

I am about to purchase some Underdog Sound Deadner. Thanks for the heads up in your ute thread Clay about this stuff. If you read this Clay, can you tell me if you bought the rolls or sheets of this stuff?

Would underfelt still be recommended over the top of the sound deadner?

Have a ripper. Cheers Rod

Used the sheets Rod. I wanted to minimise on anything that would hold water so didn't use underfelt this time.

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Hi Rod;
I used similar to to Underdog on my Ute then underfelt and then carpet just for that bit extra.
Neil

Slowly plugging away and starting to a twinkle of light.

Clay with his work has inspired me to clean up the front end. No where near as extensive but gee it took a while to get rid of 60 years of backed on grease. My plan is to get the front end back on along with the motor before replacing the shockers and one broken spring along with the perished bump stops.

I had a grrrr moment as I found movement in one of the king pins. They have had bugger all miles since being refurbished. At that point I remember a post from some time ago to check the lock pin. Low and behold after a nip up, the movement was non existant. This led to another grrrr moment. At that point my 34 plus memory kicked in and I remembered when the king pins were replaced one was a FE and one was a FC one (different wheel bearing size). I am not sure I will correct this but will think it through.

I am now in the process of cleaning up, replacing bits on the steering linkage. I have got the original one out of storage "from way back when" and I think I am going to put it back on. I had replaced it with a HR solid steering linkage but it always rubbed on the sump. I had to raise the engine mounts slightly but it still rubbed but not as much.

I have a couple of questions coming from the experienced ones. I hope you don't mind.

This weekend I am planning on putting the sound deadner on the floor and firewall. I have been cleaning up the pedal box. Would it be a good ideal to solid weld the stop bracket to the main frame?? It is only held on by a few spot welds and I know this area broke in my ute.

When putting this area together, what should be the sequence of events in putting each part back? ie: should the pedal box be installed before the insulation and firewall card or the other way round. I remember reading something about this on the forum but I can't find the thread.

Until next time. Have a ripper all.

Cheers Rod

(https://i.imgur.com/fprp5TNl.jpg)

I had that rubbing problem on a car with red motor and disc front end but when I put the HR draglink in my ute no such problem. Now I have put same HR disc front in the Ute I'm not expecting the problem to return, but we shall see.

I would put the pedal box in the car first. You don't want a anything sandwiched between it and the firewall. Leave the firewall insulation card until your floor covering is in. Handbrake  has to go in after firewall insulation card.

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Rod,

You can answer a query I have about stub axles.  I have an upright/kingpin/stub axle assembly, apparently from an FC; but the holes in the stub axle flange are all through-holes.  Normally, the lower two holes are through-drilled, and the upper two holes are threaded . . .

Can you check your stub axles and tell me which one has threaded holes and which one has through-holes?

Rob

If your firewall insulation cardboard is still all in one piece as per original, you have to put it in at the same time as the pedal box otherwise it won’t go in.
If you have separated the insulation then you can fit it later after the pedal box.

Ken

Thanks Clay, Rob and Ken.

Rob, both stub axle assemblies are the same. ie: The upper two holes are threaded, while the lower two are through holes as you have described.

Cheers

Rod

Rob, I think EJ was the first one to have all 4 holes drilled through.
Pretty sure FE to EK all had threaded upper holes.

I used to supply parts to Rare Spares and they were always chasing the Drilled type stub axles because they were for EH

Ken

Hi All,

Not a lot to report as I have been laid up somewhat. I have almost finished the sound deadner. I only need to put some under the back seat area. I am looking forward in putting the confetti back in its place.

While laid up, I am thinking to much ahead and planning other jobs. One is replacing all the brake and fuel lines. I remember thirty years ago there was a leak in the fuel line half way along the inner sill. This was repaired with a joiner and has worked well but time for a proper repair. Should there be a joiner in the brake line as well, as currently there is one? If so I will put it back in on replacement but it is not showing in the Master Parts Catalogue.

Could I please confirm thread sizes. The following thread from last year - http://forum.fefcholden.club/index.php?PHPSESSID=jbheacq1l52p78dq49mtv5jc85&topic=27814.0

Harv if you are reading you gave the following thread sizes for certain pipes.

Thread sizes:
3/16" pipe uses 3/8-24UNF thread.
1/4" pipe uses 7/16-20UNF thread.
5/16" pipe uses 1/2-20UNF thread.
3/8" pipe uses 5/8-18UNF thread.

I have been able to locate some flare nuts but need to be sure before purchasing. I am all good to go with the Fuel ones but I am a little concerned with the brake ones. The brake ones I can get are for early Holden and Ford but the thread is 7/16 x 24UNF Thread. I have measured an old nut the best I can with a thread gauge. I think it is 24 UNF but want to be certain before purchasing. However as listed in the forum thread (too me many threads happening hear) it indicates the thread is 20UNF.

I am not in a position to get under the car and measure currently but can anyone give approximately how much Bundy Tube I need to buy for both the fuel and brake lines.

Thanks in Anticipation. Cheers Rod

I just bought 6 metre lengths Rod. Also in a roll for one application. Can't remember which but the roll was much cheaper. I did all brake, fuel and vacuum on the FB ute.

Can't specific a lot remember on our FC, but my EKs and FB all had a brass union about one inch long mid way along the sill.
Cheers
Clay

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Hi All,

I have just purchased some flare nuts for both fuel and brake lines. They are imperial for both thread and nut size. I mention this as there was a thread (excuse the pun) some time back that while the threads these days are imperial, the nut size is metric. If you are after "old school" sizes check this site out - www.autoaer.com.au.

Further to that I did pose a question about the thread pitch for the 1/4 inch brake lines. I can confirm they ar 24 threads per inch (Thread - 7/16 x 24 T.P.I UNF).

Cheers Rod

Very cool site thanks Rod. Well done getting imperial hex heads. Save confusion down the line. Wish I had done same. Next time I can.


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Slowly moving along.

Sound Deadner has been put in. I decided to cover it with a thin layer of underfelt to take away the "sharpness of the lines where the deadner was pushed into the curves of the floor.

(https://i.imgur.com/CBGfcYim.jpg)

(https://i.imgur.com/utz4i3ym.jpg)

(https://i.imgur.com/fxqAb15m.jpg)

Oh and put the confetti back in for someone else to find in a future life.

(https://i.imgur.com/pHmOSO0m.jpg)

I am a little further advance than these shots. Slowly plugging away with the interior including putting back firewall card, vent mechanism, steering column, tidying up electrical etc...

After the firewall card was back in place, in went the wiper and other cables etc.. that could be done until the card was in place.

I modified a set of wiper cranks I made some time ago for the electric EK wipers. The reason for this is to lengthen the primary so the wiper arms don't foul on the card. I reused / repurposed the pivot point from the vacuum crank. I then made a inset into one of the arms so it is more hard wearing while leaving the original rubber inset in the other arm which will pivot on the old vacuum pivot.

I hope it all works out in the end as I took measurements from an original crank.

(https://i.imgur.com/SCTPoKym.jpg)

(https://i.imgur.com/HbQH0TQm.jpg)

(https://i.imgur.com/YTZEojTm.jpg)

UNtil next time.

Cheers

Rod

And has led to this....

While I had already given the front end a quick lick of paint I have decided to do some dismantling as some of the seals were no existant. King pins good - win!, Outer Upper and Lower Pivot Pins good - win!, Inner Upper and Outer Pivots seems solid - win!, One broken spring - replace, Shockers ready to replace, Bump stops perished - replace, Upper shock tower needs work (see below) and lower wish bones need work (see below).

This is at I found at the top of one tower. While the "original" shocks were still in place, it indicates that they have at least been removed in a past life.
(https://i.imgur.com/6WrlgsRm.jpg)

It is missing one a rubber support as shown.
(https://i.imgur.com/X6pNj6Zm.jpg)

I will modify one of the 'old' supports and weld to the top.

The lower wishbone need attention as the bolts that hold the lower shocker support have to be welded back in (I assume that were welded going by what I could see) - weren't they a "shocking" job to do in getting a spanner to hold the head through the spring to stop them spinning.
(https://i.imgur.com/zI14Q69m.jpg)

Has anyone got any pointers in removing and more so reinstalling the Inner Upper and Lower Wishbone support bushes so I can replace the seals?

Intil next time.

Cheers

Rod

 

Rod
There should be a seperate plate underneath the lower wishbone to locate and bolt the shocks to

Rod,

It's a painful bloody operation to remove the control arms just to replace the rubber seals.  Oh, and be warned: the Rare Spares seals (tapered) are OK for HR upper control arms, but not much good for the king-pin front suspension (the small hole stretches too much, the seal splits and falls off, and you're back to where you began).  Cut the right size heater hose to length instead.

If the seals are present, do not replace them.  But if any are missing -

Assuming the front springs and (uprights + steering knuckles + brakes) have been removed -

1. Grab onto the outer ends of the control arms and try to rock them fore-and-aft.  If there's any looseness, replace the shafts and the bushes.
1a. If there is fore-and-aft looseness in the lower control arms, take a careful look at the lower control arm shaft where it goes into the crossmember.  It could be that the shaft is loose in the crossmember.  If this is the case, a whole new world of pain has just opened up.  You're best off looking for a better front crossmember.

All good? Then -

2. Undo the grease nipple from the bush.  Get a big socket and long breaker bar, and unscrew the bush from the control arm (front and rear).  If the bushes are good enough to re-use, re-use them.

3. Clean the grease and metal shavings off.  Thread the new seals over the shaft.  Put the control arm in place so that there's equal protrusion of the shaft through the control arm at each end.  Start the front bush back on the shaft.  It should "pick up" the thread in the control arm fairly easily.  Screw it on until it's nearly "home".  Start the rear bush back onto the shaft.  It should also pick up the thread in the control arm.  If it doesn't, rotate the control arm until the threads line up (or you might have to lever the end of the arm outwards a bit).  Screw the rear bush "home".  Screw the front bush "home".

4. Put the grease nipples back in and go nuts with the grease gun, at least until you can see lots of grease ooze out from the seals.

5. Repeat as needed with the other control arms.

Rob

Rod,

Part 2:  The upper control arm seals are 5/8" ID x 1/2" deep.
At a guess, the lower control arm seals are 3/4" ID x 3/4" deep, maybe 7/8" deep.

Rob

Thanks Gary and Rob,

Gary I have the plates that go underneath. The bolts I spoke about hold the plate in place. In looking closer at the bolts, it looks like they have been replaced in the past but not spot welded to the wishbone.

Rob, thank you so much for the information. It is great. I am fortunate that they was no movement at all in any of the pivots, partularly the Upper and Lower Inners. Of all the seals I was missing  three I think and I suspect that these wear blased of when I pressure clean the assembly. Most of the others were hard and brittle and broke when I removed the wishbones. Thanks for the heads up about the Rares Seals. I was about to order them. I suppose I still need to order them for the other seals or could I get away with heat hose?

Cheers Rod

Rod,

You're thinking of the outer pivot seals?  Best to re-use your old ones, if you're not replacing the pivots.  I haven't tried to buy the seals on their own.

Rob

Thanks Rob. I think I might be able to find enough seals in my collection. I have purchased 3/4 Heater Hose and will make some inner seals up over the weekend.

In the mean time I have got slightly side tracked. Took the covers off the front seat as they need some minor repairs, Mainly the hold down points of the fabric have decayed. Looks like it has been caused by the surface rust on the metal retainers. There is also a couple of minor holes caused by the broken plastic side covers (which I removed some time ago).

(https://i.imgur.com/rxOKE98m.jpg)

(https://i.imgur.com/TgVrUZ1m.jpg)

(https://i.imgur.com/dKyHe6pm.jpg)

(https://i.imgur.com/cqV2Iykm.jpg)

The condition of the burlap and covering foam is quite remarkable. More than usable. With anticipation I found a number of surprises - 65 cents, plenty of confetti again and the winner - a 1948 Three Pence.

The "side springs" were gone as I suspected( a copy below of the passenger side for reference) on the drivers side.

(https://i.imgur.com/bwDt0akm.jpg)

In another thread last year I made mention of the differences between the FE and FC. (http://forum.fefcholden.club/index.php?topic=27783.msg175019#msg175019). Using the donor coil springs from the FC I placed these strategically on the FE frame. While there is a slight difference in their location compared to a photo of the FB / EK, I did so using one of the original mount points on the rail hence the second spring had to be in a slightly forward position. I had to weld and reinforce one side "rail / wire as it was broken before installing the springs.

(https://i.imgur.com/Ru79g8pm.jpg)

(https://i.imgur.com/GUfQNEtm.jpg)

(https://i.imgur.com/Omt6bAgm.jpg)

(https://i.imgur.com/pVXkjHom.jpg)

Finished off reclipping burlap back in place in readiness to install the foam and covers once they are repaired.

(https://i.imgur.com/k0u2fzNm.jpg)

The "firmness" on the drivers side is now as firm if not slightly firmer than the passenger side.

Have a ripper.

Cheers Rod

Great work Rod. I notice getting in and out of my ute how much of a hiding the springs get on the drivers side. Hard to imagine that they were an afterthought to FE as it were…


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Its been a little while. Still plugging away at the front end. I hope to have in shortly in order to get the wheels on and moving.

Knowing my stub axles are both FE and FC 9(different bearings), I thought I better double check that there wasn't a mix up on the stub axles and or upright supports. In reading this thread http://forum.fefcholden.club/index.php?topic=7032.20 some time ago there was a mention that there is a difference in the upright supports but not fully confirmed hence this.

The stub axles are left and right but in looking at the part numbers on the uprights I was presented with 8871/2 for both. When I went to the parts catalogue,  74088712 is listed as RHS while 74088711 being LHS - Bugger. I thought I would explore further. I have another four assemblies with three of them having the same 8871/2 number with the other having no number at all. Two of the three with numbers, were from a car I knew its history relatively well as it was my grandmothers and I can never remember a time when the King Pins were replaced. But I may very well be wrong.

I am going to jack up my ute tomorrow and see if I can get easy access to the part numbers for further clarification.

In the mean time can anyone confidently confirm there are clear differences between the LH and RH Supports or alternatively if they are the same. The thread above mentions there is an angle difference which effects castor.

Cheers Rod

Rod, I’m sure that the uprights have different castings to cater for the bump stops on steering lock. Other than that they would be identical.
You would not be able to get any where near full lock if you had mixed uprights from left to right or had two of the same side.

Ken

Rod,

I've just had a squiz at a pair of uprights.  The uprights are made from the same forgings, which is why you have 8871/2 on both, but -
they're machined differently.  In the vertical plane, the king pin bore is not parallel with the forging centreline, but is canted.  If you look through the king pin bore from below, you can see the end of the upper eye.  This gives you built-in caster.

The upright has a machined face at the rear, where the cotter pin nut and lockwasher tighten down against the upright.  If the cotter pin nut is facing rearwards, the uprights are on the correct side of the vehicle.

Rob

Mistake corrected 6/2/2022.

Thank you Ken and Rob. I just want to be sure before putting back together.

I had one upright without the stub axle on and I see what you mean Rob in regards to the angle of the centreline.

It is interesting you mention the cotter pin. It was one on those things I was comparing but its obvious not enough, so thank you Rob. I see what you mean in regards to the recess for the nut and washer. However, the nuts are on the rear of the support where the recess is on all of the king pin assemblies I have.

In my research, I came across this very old thread over at the FB / EK Forum - http://www.fbekholden.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=3470&hilit=king+pin. The original poster hasn't been online for some time however, when I looked at his photos (I think they are incorrectly labeled ie: 1st one should be left from front and 2nd one right from rear), I can see why he had issues with the King Pin Inclination. The stub axles are out by 180 degrees or are on the wrong side because the grease nipples are facing rearward instead of forward. I assume this is the case with FB / EK as with FE / FC with forward facing grease nipples.

You may ask why I posted, possibly an unrelated thread, but I wonder how many refurbed king pins have been incorrectly assembled with stub axles out and or incorrect uprights being used ie: two rights (or lefts) or a mixture of both situations.

Ken and Rob, I really value your input. It is always valuable and I continue to learn in reading your threads and response that you provide throughout the forum.

Cheers Rod

I can't believe that it has been a while since posting. Where has the time gone?

I have done a bit but not as much as would have liked. I wanted the old girl back on the road for a special wedding anniversary next week. That timeline is going to pass as I always find something else to do. I have got the front end sorted. All back on, including guards etc... A little warning for those that undertake a lower A Pillar Repair. Be very careful on how far out you repair panel goes. I found out the hard way when I went to put one of the guards on. I had to modify the lower part of the guard slightly in order to for it the fit flush with the door profile. The other side was fine.

Everything is in place on the inside except for the fitting of the front seat. I have yet to have the covers repaired.

The last couple of days I have finished making new brake and fuel lines. It took longer than I thought. Installing the brakes will be on a to do list shortly.

Today I moved the rear end. I have had an oil leak around the diff centre for a long time. What I thought was a simple job didn't turn out that way. Removed the first axle (very easily) and was presented with an oil leak. I remember replacing the rear axle bearing some time ago (however, probably less than 500 miles ago) and wasn't happy with the oil seal in the kit. It is one of the newer type seals, where the depth of the seal is less than the older metal / leather seals. When putting it in I wasn't happy and rightly so. It had slightly twisted in the opening and there was the source of the leak.

I then moved to the other axle and guess what???, it wouldn't budge. I then thought the easiest option was the remove the diff all together. I am glad I did. The axle came out easy, I can replace the gasket easily by easy access to the diff centre and clean 60 years of oil / grease off it in preparation for painting. Not to mention, replace other rubbers etc....

I hope I can ask a question / advice. Now that the diff is out I will replace the gasket along with pinion seal. I will also replace the axle seal  where the leak was (has anyone got any better alternatives to the newer ones?) but should I replace the the other side as well which has the original seal which hasn't leaked. I suspect it would be good insurance.

All the best. Cheers Rod

Rod,

"If it ain't broke, . . . "

But then Sod's Law also says that any oil seal that doesn't leak will leak if you don't replace it.

In this case, I'll go with the first.

My experience with the replacement rear axle oil seals is similar to yours.  I bought two when I needed one, and used the first as a practice-run.  Yes, they bend.  I used a cylindrical piece of wood as a drift, and then a socket with extension to drive the seal into place.  Check the bore for damage if (heaven forbid) a dodgy mechanic has used a screwdriver to pry the old seal out.

Rob

Thanks Rob.

I will leave the original in and see how I go.

Clean the diff housing up today in preparation for a lick of paint. Do diffs have a number in much the same way as the engine and transmision to date the manufacturing date? I came across a number on the drivers side on the outer most part of the diff housing. It was upside down and face the rear of the diff. The number is 8H7H.

I came across another issue that I need to attend to. The drain plug appears to be stripped.

My options are:
1. Retap the hole (I am unsure of thread and size) and hope for the best along trying to track down another plug.
2. Retap to a larger hole and find a plug to suit (any suggestions??) OR
3. Find a replacement housing which I prefer not to do.

Fun and games.

Cheers Rod

Rod,

This is the drain plug that's stripped, not the filler plug?  The rear axle drain plug was deleted early in FJ production.  Or, is it the bottom bolt that holds the diff centre in the rear axle housing?

If it's the bottom bolt, you can heli-coil it 3/8" UNF.  But you'll need to remove the diff centre first, and it's much easier to take the entire rear axle out and work on it standing up.

The rear axle filler plug is the same as the early gearbox drain plug (1" AF, 3/4 - 16TPI).  Plugs with oversize threads were available . . .

Rob

Hi Rob, Sorry for the confusion.

It is the diff filler plug. Thank you for providing the information about it. I think I should have a gear box plug somewhere. I recon I will retap and see how I go. If not successful I suppose a I could try and find an oversize one. I see Rares sell oversized sump plugs so possibly an oversized diff plug can be found.

Have you seen the stamped numbers on the diff housing before.

Thanks again for passing on you your exceptional knowledge.

Cheers Rod

Finally got a 3/4 Tap (had to purchace one online). Thanks again Rob for the size and pitch. I ran the tap through the opening and cleared the thread. While the "new" plug pulled from an old gearbox fits, there is minor lateral play. I can do the plug up nicely and I am sure with a new copper gasket it will be fine but part of me is worried that I am going to this extent it may leak when I put the diff back together and back in the car. I am not sure if teflon tape will be of help.

I am considering two things. Firstly to slightly narrow the size of the filler opening by punching around the perimeter of the flange from behind. I may need to run the tap through again.

(https://i.imgur.com/5nq4TBCl.jpg)

The other option is to remove the thread flange through grinding it away and then and welding the plate in that I removed from the gearbox bottom plate which had the thread for the bolt intact. My only concern if the amount of clearance between this and the diff centre assembly when reassmebled.

(https://i.imgur.com/inqKLBFl.jpg)

More decisions.

Have a ripper weekend.

Cheers Rod

Rod,

Do you have a welder (either the equipment, or the tradesman)?  Working from the inside of the rear axle housing, lay a nice big fillet all the way around the outside of the flange.  As the weld cools, it shrinks.  Then you can run the tap through the hole again, if the filler plug has become a tight fit.

Or some deft punch work from the inside, as you suggest.

A new copper washer, nicely annealed, will stop leaks at the filler plug.

Rob

Thank you so much Rob. I didn't think to run a bead of weld around the outside. Yes I have a welder. This is a better option than welding the threaded plate on the back.

Cheers

Rod

While not pretty (does look better live), it has achieved the desire result. I had to run the tap through again for a clean up. Not that I am going to but I recon I would need a long breaker bar to strip the tread. Reminds me I might look up what the desire torque is.

(https://i.imgur.com/2190D2bl.jpg)

I will anneal a copper washer when I put it back together.

Thanks Rob for your ongoing assistance.

Cheers

Rod

Hi All,

Still plugging away. Since last post I have done all the brakes ups which included new lines / pipes, reconditioned cylinders etc..., rear shocks and it goes on. Other than the repairs I need to get done on the front seat (another story), I am practically back where I started - "Engine Freshen Up...."

I had a head done up two and half years ago and its ready to be installed with Harv's improved gasket. I got back to the engine and need to have new cam bearings installed. I have removed the old ones. Unfortunately, my tardiness in protecting the old ones was not existant. I cleaned the block internals using Citric Acid (did a brillant job) and some of the fluid found its way onto the bearings when I emptied the block and etched the bearings - bugger. I would like to have a crack at installing new ones myself but I am unsure how good the adjustable online tools are. Its about educating myself in preparation for other rebuilds in the future. Most likely get someone else to do it.

Anyway when I had the blocked turned over I think I have been met with a nasty surprise. I have previously "honed" the engine but have now found what I think may be a crack in the bore of one of the cylinders. It goes from approximately halfway down the bore to to base. It is "very straight".

(https://i.imgur.com/CEIrkt9m.jpg)

What do you think? Am I  hopeful it is a slight score? Are greys prone to clinder cracks. The motor is a standard 3 1/16 bore (replacement bore - Victorian Police Engine Number).

Might be time to go an pull out another block and see what it is like.

Have a ripper.

Cheers Rod

Rod,

The line seems too straight to be a crack.

If the block still has the welch plugs and coolant drain plug in place, here's a suggestion:  Blank off the big hole for the water pump at the front of the block, sit the block right way up, and fill the water jacket with petrol.  If you have a cracked cylinder bore, it'll weep petrol.

If the bore is indeed cracked, it's not too great a drama to get it re-sleeved.

Rob

Rod ..I agree with Rob , seems far too straight to be a conventional crack ..petrol in the water jacket will certainly leak through ..maybe its an old scratch mark that wasn't evident before you honed , like end of a broken ring ,did you hone it yourself with a three or four stone drill driven hone ? stopped at bottom and then pulled the hone straight up and out , and part of the tool scored it on way out ..I may mention a good cross hatch hone pattern is desirable ...Vern ..

Hi mate you can buy Dye penetrant crack detecting sprays ones we use in my workshop are 4 part (4 different spray cans) just follow the directions and they are pretty simple to use.

Thanks so much fellas for your replies.

Rob I tend to agree after I had another look. It is so straight and uniform. I will give the petrol trick a go at some point.

Vern, yes I have used a three legged hone but I always stop at the top of the stroke pulling it out of the bore. The cross hatch is a little deceiving in the picture due to the angle I had my phone at. While it isn't perfect, I have managed to get the cross hatch close to the 30 degrees.

Neil, that spray sounds interesting. Not they I need to get the head checked as it is reconditioned but I suspect this stuff would help finding head cracks.

Since my last post I pulled the spare block out of hiding. It is standard 3 1/16 bore as well. It is a J Block. It is in remarkable condition with little corrosion in the water jackets. The grease I smothered the bores in has done a brilliant job of preventing any surface rust. Other than, a just noticable lip ie: very small at that (which isn't there any more), the bores are remarkable. I can still see the cross hatch in each pot and no score marks that I can see unlike the current one. A bonus is that the cam bearings look like new. No need to replace them.

I will get a set of bore guages to to test out of round / taper, but this block looks like it could be servicable. The more I look at the other block, the more I am inclined to think it needs a rebore.

Thanks again for your help.

Cheers Rod

Hi Rod
Yes the Dye Crack checking sprays are quite good we use them on our Diesel engine stuff and large turbo charger turbines however the results you get can be a bit open to interpretation if you really want a definite yes or no the Magnetic Particle crack checking is the way to go.
Good luck with the engine rebuild.

Rod ..If a " J " engine number is not a problem for you and it is a good block , then why bother with a suspect one ? ..Vern ..

I hear you Vern. The motor isn't orginal so that makes my mind up. Both blocks are stance 3 1/16th and nence plenty of meat for rebore/s. I have decided to compare both blocks. I have spent a lot of time measuring up tolerances.

In a nutshell the J Block comes in the best and I think is serviceable without getting a rebore at this stage. I measured each pot at the top and bottom in both parallel with the crank and in the thrust direction ie: 90 degrees. I recorded three trials at each location to get an average to counter my inexperience in measuring / error – 72 measurements in total. I would have liked to have used a bore gauge but used a telescope gauge and micrometre to gather the measurements. The following info I gathered. Cylinder wear was mostly around 2 thou with one cylinder in at 4 thou. Max out of round was 1 thou with most cylinders’ tapers around 1-2 thou. One cylinder had a taper of around 3 thou which coincidentally is the same cylinder where max wear was noted.

From what I have read I think out of round and taper are within spec. Not sure about cylinder wear as I can’t find this in the manual. I have a set of brand-new standard rings. I tried one of them 1 inch down one bore and the ring gap was close to the max 16 thou. I have yet to hone the cylinders and are unsure how this will affect the tolerances. I will remeasure after doing so.

Overall, I am amazed at the condition of the block. There is very little evidence of corrosion around the water jacket holes and also internally scale is very limited especially compared to the other block before I cleaned it. Throw in the mix the crankshaft is a winner. While I won’t use it in this build, it is standard size, the tolerances are in spec and the journals are remarkable. I don’t think the motor has done many miles at all. I am going to use the crank in the other block as it hasn’t done many miles since it was reground, and I already have new bearings for it.
Now to the block in question. I only had to measure the top of each cylinder to realise I was going to go with the J Block. Most of the wear is around 4 thou with three cylinders being around 5 thou on the thrust side. Didn’t bother to measure out of round or the bottom of the cylinder for taper purposes. Call it coincidence but it is interesting to note cylinder 2 had the most wear in both blocks.

Next step is to soak internal cooling passages with citric acid (this did a great job on the last block.) I need to remember to protect the cylinder walls and more importantly the great condition of the cam bearings just in case I spill the acid on them when removing the acid. I will remeasure bores and go from there on what the next step will be.
Cheers Rod

Hi Rod ..Just a couple of comments ..have you checked your pistons ? Apart from eliminating serious faults , if they look good , and if they are genuine original style Holden pistons or Repco or ACL which were OEM ,check the measurement of the skirt just below the oil control ring 90deg to pin ,if ok that's peace of mind , if bit of " slap" in bore you can get some shops to use piston expander ...using a crank from another engine is not a problem , years ago you could buy exchange reground crankshafts with bearings over the counter ..providing your old crank was re grindable ..it is imperitive the block you are going to use has its original main bearing caps , mixing main bearing caps is a NO, NO unless you line bore them ..As you state you have a good crank with bearings from another engine , I would fit it up using "Plasti gauge"..two strips per journal , NO rear main seal in when doing this ,great piece of mind  ..Vern ..

Hi Vern,

I can't believe your timing. Today I went searching for the Mains. I found them and compared the rear main of both blocks. While they are both J Blocks (the one taking out of the car is a replacement motor with Vic Pol number and was manufactured on March 6, 1963), and while the mains were exactly the same, there was a slight difference in the size of the drain hole. There is no sign of the larger one being opened up more which if I rememebr right / read somewhere that this can be done. Anyway I digress, I do have the correct mains for the "new" block.

The bonus was that I found the pistons and rods that came out of this second motor which I am glad I did. I comfirmed my thoughts that this motor hasn't done a lot of work. I measured these up and compared them to the others and there is marginally less wear. I did a quick measure up on a couple of gudgeon pins and there seemed to be minimal wear as well. I don't how I am going to do it, but I should now compare the small end size as well.

It is interesting that you mentioned the type of pistons. All of them are "Holden". I already have a set of standard rings which incidently are repco. I meaaured up the ring / ring land clearance and they are at the lower end of clearance. Interestingly in the kit there were some what I would call expanders for the top compression ring to "take up the slack" if there is ring land wear. I have seen these in another kit as well, a number of years ago. Now I got worried when you mentioned repco. I am fortuante that I have a Repco Parts Booklet 1948-60. I had a look and the part number for replacement standard rings is FX 993 for 3.0625 inch bore. The ones I got, I grabbed quickly when they came up on ebay a few years ago and the number of the box is K 993-STD (Suits Holden 3.0625). I hope these are for a grey and came out ofter 1960 as a replacement number for EK-EJ and not a 138 Red. The width and thickness seem to be in spec when measuring up.

The last thing I did today was mix up the citric acid to give the coolant passages one last make over taking care of protecting cam bearings etc...

Thanks again Vern.

Cheers

Rod

Well going through this process is to test us all I am sure.

I put the new main bearings in the "new" block and measured up the tolerances and happy to say they are in spec, which I was hoping as the crank has done very few miles since it was reground 30 odd years ago.

In this thread (http://forum.fefcholden.club/index.php?topic=5966.msg173654#msg173654) a couple of years back I spoke about possibly finding the source of some engine noise that over many years we could note find. I also discussed possible excessive end float. Well this definitely wasn't the issue. In actual fact it is / was completely the opposite - no float at all.

When I put the new front intermediate main in (thrust bearing), I struggled to get the bearing between the thrust faces of the crank. Mmm what is going on here??? I thought I would try the old one which still looks serviceable. Still the same result. I was starting to think that I had been supplied with the wrong bearings even all the other mains were in spec. I looked at the box and found a sticker on the inside which indicated that in addition to the bearings being oversized (10thou) the flange is also overwidth. Looking online ACL indicated the more oversize the journal bearing, the wider the flange is. I confirmed this by getting the thrust bearing from the spare crank and sure enough the bearing cap slipped inbetween the trust faces of the crank easily (confirmed with a venier as well). Clearly the machine shop didn't machine the thrust faces 30 years ago to accomindate the oversized flange.

I think what I am going to try is face the surface of the flange bearing in the same manner as this article suggests to get end float between 3 and 8 thou.

https://www.enginelabs.com/engine-tech/blueprint-series-the-thrust-bearing-and-setting-crankshaft-endplay/

Please tell me if this approach is wrong or not or encourage me to have a go. I am a bit hesitant.

Have a ripper. Cheers Rod

Rod,

I got bitten by the overwidth thrust bearing problem a while back when rebuilding an engine.  I told the engine shop about it, and they were very co-operative.  They said it was a very simple (for them) operation to grind the thrust faces on the crank to suit the bearings.

If you have a favourite engine shop, talk to them and see what they can do.  The problem with "enthinnening" your thrust bearings by hand would be ensuring that the thrust faces stay square with the crank axis, and that you take an equal amount off each face, so the crank stays in its correct position fore-and-aft.

Rob

Hi Rod ..I have been away for 2 weeks ..Simpson desert KTM bike run as a support vehicle ..The best way is to have a crankshaft grinder finish the thrust faces in journal , but it is not a high powered hi performance engine , you could clamp your two bearing halves together and on wet , Kero or Diesel or WD40 , wet and dry paper on a face plate or piece of glass , carefully reduce the flange thickness evenly on both sides till correct ..with regards your rings , the thin spacer bands are used where compression ring clearance in the ring land is excessive , usually the top compression ring , it must be machined on a lathe , a little off each side of the land ..cheers Vern

Hi All,

Well I thought I would have a go at getting the thrust bearings into spec. I used the old bearings as a test first to ensure that I wasn't too aggressive etc...

I took the two shells and butted them up on a recently surfaced flywheel (flat surface). I then took a slightly modified hose clamp and clamp the shells together. I then used an old door window and slowly lapped the front face of the bearings (more on this in a moment), regularly checking the measurement,s using 400 grit wet and dry with WD40. I was fortunate to have the shells from the standard crank. I clamped these together in the same manner and these were used as a reference for the size I needed to get to. Once I was confident the dimensions were the same with each bearing set, I placed these into the block and used a dial indicator to ensure the tolerances were in spec which they were.

I then slowly repeated the process on the new bearings. On measurement the end play is between 3 and 4 thou, which is the lower end of tolerances. I think this should be fine considering the wear that will occur over time. So why did I only lap the back face. Firstly the article I posted it mentioned it along with other sources and youtube. The reason for this is the back of the bearing is where further wear will occur. Secondy I took many mic measurements of the flange thicknesses comparing this to the standard set. It was evident that one flange was the same thickness in the standard and oversized bearing. ie: only one flange is oversized not both in the oversized bearing. Only time will tell I suppose if what I have done will cause further issues.

(http://i.imgur.com/cywbU6Xb.jpg) ($2)

(http://i.imgur.com/6VnYdEGb.jpg) ($2)

(http://i.imgur.com/xc3JUG5b.jpg) ($2)

Thanks Vern and Rob for your info. Vern I won't need to worry about the ring spacers as my ring land gaps are all in spec. I found it interesting that these would be used. I would have thought if there was excessive ring land gap that news pistons would be required or at best, the best solution.

Cheers Rod

Hi Rod ..Sounds like your J block is shaping up ok ...I stuck with my "L" block cause I just wanted to , and it is not as close in tolerance as yours , when I assembled it I used Perfect Circle rings , with the solid segemented oil control ring , bad move , I took engine back out and fitted 4 piece oil control rings from JP down in SA ..4 pieces , spreader , expander, 2 rails .. and new compression rings ,very happy now , 130psi in all 6 cylinders ....and not burning oil ...Vern ..

Finally put the crank into place. As we know the most time consuming part is the rear main. I read numerous threads here and over at FB EK forum and used the best of them to come up with my approach with a few improvisations.

I read most threads on the importance of soaking the rear main for 24 hours beforehand. One of Rob's most recent ones in the FB EK forum indicated to do it dry. I will explain how I got the best of both worlds shortly. Now for my steps.

Step 1. Made a wooden block with a cut out to the size of the Rear Main Journal (give or take based upon my hole saw). This was reinforced by metal and the holes drilled to suit the main. I was going to use this with the crank but was able to find some stock round bar of practically the same size as the crank journal.

(https://i.imgur.com/DAzLwdyl.jpg)

Step 2. Made a rear main bearing half to use in the recess of the block and cap for tightening down the wooden block tool.

(https://i.imgur.com/2oC7Ed5l.jpg)

(https://i.imgur.com/hIrX5V2l.jpg)

Step 3. Mould rear main into recess of block and cap.

Step 4. Tighten tool down on round bar and tapped bar to seat rear main into recess of cap. Once cap was done repeat for block.

(https://i.imgur.com/WvXSPCYl.jpg)

Step 5. Made a rear main cutting guide which was notched. I made this out of 1.6mm to keep the seal proud of cap and block.

(https://i.imgur.com/HfG2cgol.jpg)

More to come shortly.

Before I continue I must add that I used "Blue Max" to adhere the seal into the recesses. The reason I didn't soak the seal prior to installation was to ensure I had the best environment for the seal to glue into the recess.

Step 6. Using the guide and a razor blade cut the seal proud of the joint. Using an original seal is a delight to cut compared to the times I have used the later versions (c...p!!!). This was done on both cap and block.

(https://i.imgur.com/mvhJyIkl.jpg)

(https://i.imgur.com/caKqJh8l.jpg)

Step 7. Sorry I haven't got photos. Placed crank in and out, in and out......... torquing down all caps to spec. This was to clean up the stray threads in the joint.

Step 8. This is where the oiling of the seal takes place. I kept the ply that Harv packed our modified head gaskets in thinking one day they will coming in handy. That day came. Keeps on giving! The thickness of the ply is the same as the recess in the cap and block where the oil slinger is located. I cut the the ply to the diameter of this recess and placed one in the block and cap. Using another piece of wood I clamped them in place to make a pool where the seal is. I then carefully filled this pool with oil and let it sit for 24 hours to soak into the seal. I made sure not to fill it too high as I didn't want to soak the ends of the seal. I will talk more to this in a moment.

(https://i.imgur.com/Q1EWtmnl.jpg)

(https://i.imgur.com/yMAHdOnl.jpg)

Step 9. After 24 hours, dismantled the pool making sure not to oil the ends of the seal.

Step 10. Put Blue Maxx on the mating surfaces of the the cap. A great mate of mine who is a mechanic always said to put a dab of Ultra Grey or Ultra Black on the ends / mating surfaces of the seal. I used Blue Maxx as I had already purchased this for reasons previously mentioned. This is the reason why I didn't want to get too much oil on the end of the seals.

(https://i.imgur.com/NevWiyOl.jpg)

(https://i.imgur.com/AMyKh8zl.jpg)

Step 10. Oiled bearings, placed crank in and final torque to spec. The crank in very tight because of the seal. I can move it using a shifter in the front of the crank but can't do it by twisting the crank by the "bells". I hope this means a degree of success but the starter can turn it over when I go to start the motor.

Step 11. Following Rob's suggestion in a thread, I used blue tak to temporily seal the drains on either side of the rear cap. Once the blue maxx has a chance to cure I will then fill the rear cap / recess with oil (through the main drain hole) to further oil up the seal, hopefully more so where the two halves of the seal meets.

(https://i.imgur.com/kOnIKajl.jpg)

My approach may be slightly unconventional. Time will tell if it is successful. I trust photos and write up may help others.

Now to get onto the rest of the engine build. Have a ripper.

Cheers Rod

Rod ..You have been extremely careful with the rear main seal , lets hope it all works well for you ...dont forget to centralise the timing cover seal on the front of the crank before you tighten the cover , use a dual lip seal with a bit of grease packed between the lips ...Vern ..

Thanks for sharing Rod. Very thorough and it better work. 👍👍


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

Well, its been a while. Very slowly plugging away. To be honest I should be enjoying driving the old gear again but life and possibly motivation has got in the way.

Motor is installed ready to go. All wiring and dash components other than wipers have be done.

The reason for the procrastination has been due to the following.

(https://i.imgur.com/QVMp9pum.jpg)

Every since I restored the old girl over thirty years ago, I could never get the drivers side door gap right. I just lived with it. I hoped with the hinges refurbed that this time it would be good. And it was until I put the guard on. Interestingly I felt when I put the guard on and the grill in that the guard seemed to be too far forward. I then consulted the passenger side and my ute and it dawned on me. The sill panel was too far forward and hence the guard couldn't go back far enough. You will say the sill panel can't be too far forward otherwise the subframe wouldn't attach. This side I didn't have to do any repairs to the attachment point (different story other side) other than the outer panel. I then remembered all those years ago, that you couldn't get sill panels at the time. The only option was to buy replacement sections. I put this down to another stuff up by the panel beater as he had put this repair section to far forward. This stopped me in my tracks. Do I accept, what I have accepted for all these years or do I take the punt and take the guard and grill off again and repair. I went back and forth for some time.

This is what I ended up doing.

(https://i.imgur.com/vgPzMmNm.jpg)

I cut a slither out of the sill and shunted the endcap back and sealed it up. Hindsite is great but I don't know why I held off. All of the following including preparing and a paint repair, took a day and a half.

(https://i.imgur.com/gxa4Zbym.jpg)

I am plugging away on other jobs as we speak. Stripped front bumper down, and painted the back. Now to reassembly and put on the car. I continue to do minor repairs on the front seat.

More to come.

Cheers Rod

Hey Rod ..Its been a while since I followed up , time moves fast and i have slowed , where are you at with your engine ?  Vern .