FE-FC Holden Discussion Forum

Galleries => Project Cars - FEs and FCs Under Construction => Topic started by: ardiesse on April 06, 2019, 04:10:21 PM



Title: Found Object
Post by: ardiesse on April 06, 2019, 04:10:21 PM
I really should know better.  I really should.

The back-story:  http://forum.fefcholden.club/index.php?topic=20763.0

When I "took the FC on", I already had two old Holdens, and didn't really need a third.

Fast forward ten years.  Strewth, has it been that long?  I already have three old Holdens, and I need a fourth like I need a hole in the head.
But today I went and got another FC Standard sedan from a fellow-member of the NSW club.  And just like before, I paid $700 for this one, too.

Rob


Title: Re: Found Object
Post by: ardiesse on April 06, 2019, 06:11:29 PM
(Some wonderment at the slooow home internet connection . . .)

(https://i.imgur.com/PaI4nEU.jpg)

It's complete, quite straight considering, but it has rust in all the usual places.  I reckon it has the makings of a good rat-rod.

Mechanically - well, that's another story.  I've been working on it more off than on for the past couple of years.  I re-did all the brake hydraulics, so the brakes work, and I'm amazed that after sitting unused for two years, the brakes still work.  The clutch hydraulics needed replacing; and I got the car to move under its own power.  Just.  The clutch slipped badly.  Then came a replacement clutch and pressure plate from my stores of second-hand parts.  And then I just spent a month of weekends on the fuel system: blocked fuel pickup in the tank (shove a piece of copper wire down the tank outlet until the blockage unblocked), drain and flush tank with about five litres of fuel, many times over, replace fuel pump (valves inoperative), and finally a known good carburettor.  It now starts and runs.  Just.  Number 3 has just about no compression, and I'm suspecting a burnt valve.

Rob


Title: Re: Found Object
Post by: Corey05 on April 06, 2019, 07:07:18 PM
looks great and would make an awesome ratrod.

Corey


Title: Re: Found Object
Post by: Errol62 on April 06, 2019, 09:16:47 PM
Need? It is essential to your mental well being Rob.


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Title: Re: Found Object
Post by: ardiesse on April 06, 2019, 09:39:57 PM
So maybe I'll have to put "Essential to mental well-being" on the workshop wall as a motivational statement.

There are no visible holes in the floors or the boot pan; but the driver's side is pretty rotten.  The RH outer sill has holes big enough to stick your hand through, the No. 1 body crossmember is rusted for most of its length.  The subframe has "farm-grade" repairs, but isn't all that bad.  The doglegs have had it, just like my grey FC.  And the RHR inner quarter panel is "see-through".

It had had a fairly bad scrape down the driver's side sometime in the '70s, I'm guessing.  Both doors were roughly beaten out and then bogged up.  And as always with body repairs, the metal-mice set to work.  The driver's door had rusted out to make a slot big enough to post an A4 envelope through . . .

A couple of years ago I took the driver's door off the car to try repairing it.  I had a "donor" front door (equally rusty) to raid for patches.  And so -

Inside

(https://i.imgur.com/5AJhMjo.jpg)

And outside (tacked)

(https://i.imgur.com/7F1Zmhs.jpg)

I welded it and then dressed the welds down carefully, so as not to take any paint off, primed and painted the inside of the door, and pressure-pak clear-coated the outside.

The quarter window frame had fallen apart, so I replaced it, fitted a new seal and bailey channels.  That's one door done.  I might try the RHR door next before I strip the car down to a shell for the body repairs.

I'm tempted to pull the head off and fix what's wrong with Number 3, but that's just a distraction from the main game.

Rob



Title: Re: Found Object
Post by: ardiesse on April 07, 2019, 08:30:11 PM
I compression-tested the motor today, and scored 120, 130, 120, 120, 115, 125.  Definitely no valve troubles.  The problem's probably ignition, and I tracked it down to number 6 spark plug which had an internal short.  I raided my toolbox for an old Holden spark plug, cleaned it up, installed it, and - you beauty.

The engine now runs on six cylinders.

Rob


Title: Re: Found Object
Post by: Errol62 on April 07, 2019, 11:04:12 PM
That would have been very satisfying Rob.


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Title: Found Object
Post by: 59wagon on April 08, 2019, 01:21:34 PM
So maybe I'll have to put "Essential to mental well-being" on the workshop wall as a motivational statement.

Good to see you looking after your mental health Rob 😀  There's just something about shed time that appears to clear the mind.

Looking forward to following your adventure.

Cheers,

John


Title: Re: Found Object
Post by: ardiesse on April 08, 2019, 07:40:28 PM
John,

Who knows?  Maybe I'll go for a long drive into the setting sun when I get it back on the road.  Best not to get ahead of myself though.  I now have to figure out where I'm going to store the panels, glass, interior and drivetrain before I strip the car down.

Rob


Title: Re: Found Object
Post by: Corey05 on April 08, 2019, 07:57:49 PM
rob
some have yoga, some have meditation. Like you I have my FC. it has been great and encouraging to see this journey from the start. look forward to seeing more.

Cheers Corey


Title: Re: Found Object
Post by: ardiesse on April 08, 2019, 09:14:45 PM
Corey,

It's going to be a lot like repairing the last one.  Good thing I kept all the patterns of the repair sections, 'cause I'll be reusing a lot of them.  And I managed to buy some repro inner sill front sections, which will save me a lot of work.

I'll start at the RHF corner and work my way around, like before.  I know a farmer in the Central West who has an EK sedan that got turned into a "shooting landau" in the late '70s.  Bit of a shame now, because the underbody is rust-free.  I might see about unstitching the front floor pan, complete with No.1 body crossmember.  Hoping the FC and EK manual front floor pressings are the same.

Rob


Title: Re: Found Object
Post by: Errol62 on April 08, 2019, 11:11:28 PM
Pretty sure they are interchangeable Rob, although there was a slight change in the pressings front passenger corner. The EK floor pan was reworked slightly to somewhat reflect the driver side steering column hole flange. The early build FBs even used the firewall centre pressing from FC, the difference being position of the heater hose hole and around the regulator mounting (FB) position (Useless fact to showcase my obscure knowledge).


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Title: Re: Found Object
Post by: my8thholden on April 09, 2019, 08:11:02 AM
G'Day Rob ..So another FC undergoing a resto ,good on you ,looks a nice unit to work on ..I haven't touched mine in 5 weeks ,bit of chrome polishing that's all..been sick also ..back into it next week I hope..Vern ..


Title: Re: Found Object
Post by: 59wagon on April 10, 2019, 10:56:01 PM
.....,I might see about unstitching the front floor pan, complete with No.1 body crossmember.  Hoping the FC and EK manual front floor pressings are the same.

Hi Rob,

Just had a look in the parts book.  FC & EK front pans have different part numbers (though possibly very similar as Clay says), though FE to EK have the same part number for the centre pressing.

(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190410/7c152a6cbb75c2069fdd5251ca546e04.jpg)

(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190410/72461d00a22936baaef06bcb0f4670ed.jpg)

Cheers,

John


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Title: Re: Found Object
Post by: fcwrangler on April 11, 2019, 11:15:33 AM
Hi Rob, Iím fairly sure the floor pan I had for my rebuild may have been an EK one. If you look at my build page the photo of the pan shows a U shape pressing on the left side top at the joint seam. When I removed the FC floor it didnít have that pressing in it. Check yours and the EK one and do some measurements to be sure, would be a lot easier job if it fits.
Jim


Title: Re: Found Object
Post by: Errol62 on April 11, 2019, 11:34:15 AM
Hi Rob, Iím fairly sure the floor pan I had for my rebuild may have been an EK one. If you look at my build page the photo of the pan shows a U shape pressing on the left side top at the joint seam. When I removed the FC floor it didnít have that pressing in it. Check yours and the EK one and do some measurements to be sure, would be a lot easier job if it fits.
Jim
As per my post above the U shape is a mirroring of the steering column cut out flange, presumably for LHD export compatibility. The fit to upper firewall seam is not affected by this.


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Title: Re: Found Object
Post by: ardiesse on April 12, 2019, 09:53:13 AM
Gentlemen,

Thanks for the excerpts from the master parts cattle-dogs.  I'm thinking that it will probably be quicker overall for me to rebuild the No.1 body crossmember than go out to Parkes, unstitch the front floor, and graft it in.  And I may confine myself to panel repairs first, so the car stays in one piece as long as it can.  They take up much less space when assembled . . .

Rob


Title: Re: Found Object
Post by: Errol62 on April 12, 2019, 12:24:55 PM
The body member is easy to fold up in the vice as Iím sure you are aware. 20# sheet from recollection.


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Title: Re: Found Object
Post by: ardiesse on May 28, 2019, 09:56:05 PM
I need to lodge a warranty claim.

Started the car up on Sunday, and it had a big flat spot off idle, so I "overhauled" the carburettor this evening (clean crud out of float bowl, replace perished accelerator pump plunger and leaking check valve, remove main jet and discharge jet, clean and replace).

I went to start the car, and there was a definite "clunk" in engine-land when I cranked it over.  It didn't start, and didn't sound right when cranking either.  When I turned the motor over by hand, it felt quite lacking in compression, and I couldn't hear it "breathe" through the air intake.  Fearing the worst, I took the oil filler cap off, felt around for a rocker arm with my left hand and turned the motor over with my right.  The rocker wasn't rocking.  And yes, I made certain that the fan belt wasn't slipping.

I've broken a camshaft timing gear.


Title: Re: Found Object
Post by: Errol62 on May 28, 2019, 10:40:49 PM
At least it happened at home Rob ;-)


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Title: Re: Found Object
Post by: Errol62 on May 28, 2019, 10:42:09 PM
Last time I did that was half way between Pt Augusta and Iron Knob.


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Title: Re: Timing gear
Post by: old-blu on May 29, 2019, 08:37:40 AM
  Hi Rob. I have original large  fibre timing gears. Also a new steel set if you are thinking of using those. Kevin.


Title: Re: Found Object
Post by: ardiesse on May 29, 2019, 10:57:23 AM
Kevin,

Thanks for the offer.  The FE-FC club has alloy gears, and I probably have an old fibre gear I can use.  Maybe.  It would be good to have the project mobile until I strip it down.

Curiously, I have a newly rebuilt motor sitting on a stand at home.  Swap, or repair the present motor?  Either way, it'll be an engine-out job.

Clay,

There must be something about the Eyre Peninsula.  My last broken timing gear was at Port Lincoln.

Rob


Title: Re: Found Object
Post by: my8thholden on May 30, 2019, 11:32:01 AM
Hi Rob ..Sorry to hear of your timing gear going ..I would like to know when you pull it down what you believe the cause was ,also what size main jet did you fit in carby ,I put a .051 in mine ,and have been running it on test rig off and on for months now ,and have come to the conclusion it using a lot of fuel.plenty black soot in exhaust pipe ..Vern


Title: Re:blinker lights
Post by: my8thholden on June 03, 2019, 07:49:02 AM
Got the Ba15d LED lights in amber ,work really well in rear tail light assembly ,in lower clear lense , off the car ,should be good on final assembly ..Vern .


Title: Re: Found Object
Post by: ardiesse on August 24, 2019, 09:44:49 PM
Who's feeling a little embarrassed?

I had confidently diagnosed a broken timing gear, and since today seemed like a good day for an engine-out, I pulled the motor and gearbox out and set it up on the test stand.  Removed the harmonic balancer (more on that later), popped the timing cover off, and . . . all gear teeth present in their correct locations.

OK. So what's going on?  I turned the motor over (b.f.screwdriver in the uni-joint holes in spare driveshaft yoke, top gear) and it tended to bind in some places, and made some occasional clunking sounds in valve-train-land.  Water in cylinder bores?

Removed spark plugs and turned the motor over.  Still tended to bind; but no water came out the plug holes.  What's happening under the rocker cover?  Six bent pushrods, that's what.  Strangely, all six for the inlet valves.  OK, then . . .

I removed the rocker gear and straightened six pushrods, replaced the rocker gear and turned the motor over.  It tended to bind, and made a clunking sound in valve-train-land.  That's not good.  So I pulled the rocker gear off again and discovered that I'd bent one of my laboriously straightened pushrods, which I then straightened.  Again.

"Stupid is when you do the same thing over again expecting a different result."
Thinks: bent pushrods are usually caused by stuck valves.  I got a brass drift and a hammer, and went down the order tapping on the valve stems.  All exhaust valves free.  All inlet valves stuck, except number 1.

The cylinder head's off now, sitting on its side on the bench with kero in the inlet ports.  The inlet valves have gummed up shut.  I kid you not.  This is what happens when you start a car with >10-year-old fuel from the tank: most of the petrol has evaporated, leaving a soup of sludge and crap in the tank, which travels through the fuel system and ends up in the inlet tract.  The engine gets nice and warm, and the lighter fractions in the sludge evaporate, leaving a pretty effective adhesive to glue the inlet valves shut.  And the reason why number 1 inlet valve is still free is that it's uphill, and doesn't get bathed in sludge like the others.

Another patient admitted to the grey motor hospital . . .

Oh - the harmonic balancer.  It's one of the aftermarket ones.  I wondered why it came off with hardly any resistance.  Most of the hub stayed on the crankshaft.  It looks like it'd been speedy-sleeved (don't know whether all the aftermarket ones are), and it fractured.  A few blows with b.f.h. and chisel right above the keyway (being careful not to slip with the b.f.h. and moosh the camshaft gear teeth) and I could lever the remains of the hub off with a couple of screwdrivers.  This motor is going to get a reconditioned original-style balancer.

Maybe, on reflection, it was a good idea to do an engine-out.

Rob


Title: Re: Found Object
Post by: Errol62 on August 24, 2019, 11:09:44 PM
Gee, no rest for the wicked Rob.


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Title: Re: Found Object
Post by: my8thholden on August 25, 2019, 07:47:09 AM
By the way Rob ,was that fuel E10 ?..I cleaned a generator carby that was glug from old E10 fuel with Citrus Paint Stripper ,it came up a treat ..


Title: Re: Found Object
Post by: ardiesse on August 25, 2019, 11:59:55 AM
Vern,

The last fuel I put in the tank was regular unleaded. I don't think E10 is to blame.
Until I pull the car apart, I'll be running the engine from a mower fuel tank direct into the fuel pump.

Rob


Title: Re: Found Object
Post by: 59wagon on August 25, 2019, 06:32:10 PM
Hi Rob, fun, fun, fun hey?

....... I pulled the motor and gearbox out and set it up on the test stand.

Do you have any pic's or ideas for a grey motor test stand?  I've been thinking of building one and have a few ideas, but any advice would be helpful.

Cheers, John


Title: Re: Found Object
Post by: ardiesse on August 25, 2019, 10:36:48 PM
John,

Take a look at the thread "The Black Art of Cooling Grey Motors".  I took a couple of photos of an engine in the test stand.  I made it from galvanised steel angle from Bunnings and three axle stands.  The only thing that's a little tricky is setting up the brackets for the transmission mounts - the motor and gearbox slope down at the rear, which means that the brackets aren't horizontal; and the stands don't face fore-and-aft, but are slightly rotated.

Rob


Title: Re: Found Object
Post by: 59wagon on August 25, 2019, 11:34:06 PM
Thanks Rob :)


Title: Re: Found Object
Post by: ardiesse on August 27, 2019, 11:34:19 AM
. . . and I found that kerosene hardly budges the gummy residue.  WD-40 is better, but still very slow.  The best, I found, was acrylic lacquer thinners.
I've cleaned the inlet valves, the guides and the inlet ports.
Is there a head-gasket-removing solvent available?  It takes quite some effort with a chisel to remove the remains of the head gasket.

Rob


Title: Re: Found Object
Post by: my8thholden on August 27, 2019, 08:23:55 PM
Strip it disc in an angle grinder ..go carefully and keep it nearly flat ...removed remains of gasket today on an International engine ,works well ..Vern


Title: Re: Found Object
Post by: ardiesse on August 27, 2019, 09:26:10 PM
Good idea.  Didn't think of that.  It would probably be a good move to put a rag over the camshaft side of the cylinder block so I don't get gasket dust in the sump.


Title: Re: Found Object
Post by: my8thholden on August 28, 2019, 07:27:31 AM
Yes Rob ,the dust is not wanted ,definitely protect against it ,at oil and water access areas..I was thinking about your sticky inlet valves ,its usually oil coming down the valve stem that builds up with heat and carbon ,and contributed to by worn guides and valve stem seal failure ..its odd that residue from burning old petrol finds its way "UP" the valve stem and guide and bends 5 or so push rods at the one time ,while the plugs keep firing  ..or even made its way thru the carby ,old fuel standing in a vehicle that builds up sludge would be right through the fuel system..I would be looking for " murphy " also ,that unexpected finding ..cheers Vern ..


Title: Re: Found Object
Post by: ardiesse on August 28, 2019, 10:11:49 AM
Vern,

The car had been parked facing downhill in the drive before I picked it up, and I think the fuel level in the tank was higher than the float bowl.  It's just possible that, if the needle and seat didn't seal perfectly, fuel might seep down into the inlet manifold and evaporate, leaving the gummy residue.  The fuel bowl in the carburettor was liberally coated in varnish inside.  And the amount of crap that came out of the tank when I drained it had to be seen to be believed.  To be on the safe side, I might have to pour some lacquer thinners into the cylinder bores, no. 6 particularly, just in case the rings are in a mood to stick in the grooves.

Rob


Title: Re: Found Object
Post by: my8thholden on August 29, 2019, 07:08:06 AM
Hi Rob ..Sounds like a lot of unusual sludge ,shame ,bugger,In theory a car with a full tank of fuel parked on a hill should remain that way ..freeing up piston rings ,HMMMM ! if it were I ,and the amount of sludge you know is there ,and your fearfull its also in the rings ,I would sump off ,and take pistons out ..100% piece of mind ..guess work removed ..all the best Vern .


Title: Re: Found Object
Post by: ardiesse on August 31, 2019, 03:11:47 PM
I replaced the busted aftermarket harmonic balancer with a fair-to-good original, and made a discovery - the cylinder block's cracked.  I wondered why there was a rusty stain on the crankcase behind the generator.  Now I know.  I'll reassemble the motor so it goes, and then pressure-test the cooling system to confirm.

There are times when having spare motors is of advantage.  This is one of them.

Rob


Title: Re: Found Object
Post by: Errol62 on August 31, 2019, 07:31:57 PM
I got rid of an L series recently. Darn, you could have had it.


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Title: Re: Found Object
Post by: my8thholden on August 31, 2019, 07:51:41 PM
maybe you can Irontite stitch it .


Title: Re: Found Object
Post by: ardiesse on August 31, 2019, 08:28:09 PM
I'll assemble and install it.  It'll run well enough until I strip the car down.  I had been considering a 3-3/16" bore B-motor I have at home as a possibility.  I think I'll go with it.  The head's had quite a lot of work done on it, but it'd need rings, bearings and a slightly lumpy cam.

A cursory valve grind, and the cylinder head's now back together.  I think the poor motor never got any oil up top.  No. 1 exhaust valve has about the same clearance in the guide as the tappet setting.  It is *loose*.  And it's had a set of red motor exhaust valves fitted.  The seating area is right up the inside of the valve faces.

Rob


Title: Re: Found Object
Post by: ardiesse on August 31, 2019, 08:29:16 PM
Oh, and four cam followers had little bits broken off the side.  Collateral damage from bent pushrods.


Title: Re: Found Object
Post by: mcl1959 on September 01, 2019, 03:49:15 PM
Sounds like that head is about finished, not much you can do when the valves have recessed that far.
Ken


Title: Re: Found Object
Post by: ardiesse on September 01, 2019, 10:48:35 PM
Ken,

The valve seats haven't recessed.  It's just that the exhaust valve seats are the grey motor size, while the exhaust valves themselves are for a red motor, 0.080" bigger in diameter.  Hence the offset position of the valve seats with respect to the middle of the exhaust valve faces.

I put the rocker assemblies back on, and guess what - the motor didn't want to turn.  And yes, I gently bent another pushrod.  Something's binding. I pulled the rocker assemblies off again, and checked the pushrods.  All in the range 256-257 mm long.  At firing instant for each cylinder, the pushrod tips sit 1-5/8" to 1-11/16" above the milled surface of the head, except no. 6 inlet, which sits 1-13/16" above the milled surface of the head.  No. 6 inlet cam follower appears to be a late type.  I'll have to substitute a short pushrod to go with it.

I'm wondering how this motor ever went . . .


Title: Re: Found Object
Post by: my8thholden on September 02, 2019, 06:37:31 AM
Rob.." substitute a short push rod to go with it "!!!! Sounds like you are going to use mixture of components ..Don't do that ..use correct and checked components ...


Title: Re: Found Object
Post by: mcl1959 on September 02, 2019, 08:39:35 AM
Rob, I see what you mean now!
I agree, how could the motor have run with a mismatched follower and rod. Maybe they ground a rocker down to suit :o

Ken


Title: Re: Found Object
Post by: ardiesse on September 02, 2019, 08:26:49 PM
I put a "short" pushrod into (correction) no. 5 inlet, and all is good.  The motor turns over freely now.

Vern - there's a whole story about pushrods and cam followers.  There are "early" and "late" pushrods, and "early" and "late" cam followers.  "Late" cam followers have a thicker base than "early" ones, and the "late" pushrods are about 4 mm shorter than "early" pushrods to compensate.  The Service Bulletin dealing with followers and pushrods says it's OK to substitute "late" and "early" types for each other, as long as they are swapped over in pairs.

In practice this doesn't always happen.  You can just about get away with early follower/late pushrod if you wind the adjuster right down.  But late follower/early pushrod is almost always a recipe for disaster.

Rob


Title: Re: Found Object
Post by: my8thholden on September 02, 2019, 09:01:32 PM
Hi Rob ..perhaps Holden could have added in their bulletin swapped over in pairs and in "sets "


Title: Re: Found Object
Post by: ardiesse on September 03, 2019, 09:34:00 PM
. . . distributor installed and timed.  Manifold heat riser valve freed up.  Lacquer thinners through the inlet manifold to get rid of the gum.  An hour or so wasted bending the fuel and vac. adv. pipe to something like the shape they're supposed to be in.  Lacquer thinners through the fuel pipe.  And the fuel pump bowl was full of sludge, the same consistency as congealed gravy.  Wiped out sludge.  Flushed the fuel pump with petrol until the petrol came out clean.

I thought I might be able to start the motor tonight, but 9 pm has come, and it wouldn't be a good look to disturb the neighbours' kid practising minor scales with really strange-sounding intervals on the piano.  A fast 6/8 beat from an unmuffled exhaust would not go down well.


Title: Re: Found Object
Post by: my8thholden on September 04, 2019, 06:53:52 AM
Rob..what did you end up doing with the valve train ?..Vern ..


Title: Re: Found Object
Post by: Errol62 on September 04, 2019, 08:17:14 AM
Curious how those fuel and vacuum tubes can distort time......


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Title: Re: Found Object
Post by: ardiesse on September 04, 2019, 10:10:52 AM
Vern,

I put a late FB-EJ pushrod in the No. 5 inlet position.  When I did that, the pushrod tip sat 1-5/8" above the milled surface of the head, like all the others.  So I infer that the no. 5 inlet cam follower is a late FB-EJ type, and all the others are FJ-early FB.  The engine now turns over without any hint of binding, and the valve clearances all adjusted normally.

Clay,

When you say, "curious how those . . . vacuum tubes can distort time" you made me think of the guitar amplifier in "Back to the Future".

Rob


Title: Re: Found Object
Post by: Errol62 on September 04, 2019, 12:24:51 PM
Iím very vaguely familiar with that movie Rob. Doesnít it feature an eccentric yet very handy and creative electronic engineer? 😊😊


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Title: Re: Found Object
Post by: ardiesse on September 04, 2019, 07:43:25 PM
Connected battery cables, ignition, and a mower tank with fuel, turned the key, and . . .
the motor started and ran.  Like it had never given trouble.
Quite anticlimactic really . . .

Rob


Title: Re: Found Object
Post by: ardiesse on September 08, 2019, 12:22:15 PM
The motor's back in now, and the car moves under its own power.
Every time I get under the car I manage to make little piles of rust flakes and dirt on the carport floor.  The right hand sill has more than one clear-vision part now, as does the no. 1 body crossmember.

Rob


Title: Re: Found Object
Post by: Errol62 on September 08, 2019, 01:41:59 PM
After your brief distraction with the mechanicals I predict you are in for many hours of fun cutting welding and grinding. You only paid $700 so Iím surprised the car is as good as it is. That is how much I paid for my first EK in 1986.


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Title: Re: Found Object
Post by: ardiesse on October 07, 2019, 05:20:30 PM
A temporary cease-fire in the Battle of Firewood and the Leaf Wars this afternoon.  I stripped the hardware out of the RHR door.  I couldn't unlock it and I couldn't open it.  So I pulled the door trim off in situ, "encouraged" the window to wind down, and worked out where to put a screwdriver into the door lock mechanism to allow the door to open (lift ratchet pawl with screwdriver).

The bottom of the door frame is rusted worse than the skin, but at least it's only flat sections that need replacing.  Yet another pile of dirt and rust on the carport floor . . .


Title: Re: Found Object
Post by: ardiesse on March 22, 2020, 09:18:32 PM
The LORD be with you.
And also with you.

Let us pray.

(https://i.imgur.com/EEKJJ4o.jpg)

Almighty God, to whom all hearts are open, all desires known, and from whom no secrets are hid . . .

(https://i.imgur.com/EAvTGDv.jpg)

The Gospel reading is taken from Matthew, chapter 6, verse 19 -

"Do not store up for yourselves treasures on earth, where moth and rust destroy, and where thieves break in and steal."

(https://i.imgur.com/OfM8UZu.jpg)

Lift up your hearts.
We lift them to the Lord.
Let us give thanks to the Lord our God.
It is meet and right so to do.

(https://i.imgur.com/7a8szCt.jpg)

Behold, I am making all things new.

Procedamus in pace.
In nomine Christi, Amen.

Not bad for a day's work, if I say so myself.

Rob


Title: Re: Found Object
Post by: 59wagon on March 22, 2020, 11:25:49 PM
Well done Pastor Robert. 👍

May the grinder and welder be with you.

Cheers, John


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Title: Re: Found Object
Post by: ardiesse on March 23, 2020, 10:06:29 AM
. . . and also with you.

It is noteworthy how much more I can get done now that church services have been cancelled.
And as for the on-line streaming services, I will treat them with the contempt they rightly deserve.

Rob


Title: Re: Found Object
Post by: KFH on March 24, 2020, 07:54:48 AM
Amen


Title: Re: Found Object
Post by: ardiesse on March 28, 2020, 05:59:11 PM
Yesterday, while the sheet-metal shop at work was still open for business foreign orders, I cut a long section out of a donor panel, and folded over a ~10 mm return for the outer skin.  And "I 'ad a fink, an' a cuppa tea", and figured that it would be less trouble to turn the donor panel into a quarter-skin (or maybe a sixth-skin).  I traced the outline of the bottom 150 mm of the door onto cardboard, marked up the "quarter-skin", trimmed it and put the extra folds in.  The wheel-arch profile was fairly straightforward.  I started on the B-pillar fold, and found that the skin was about 5 mm too long.  I got the length right on my third attempt at the fold.

I think the effort in fabricating the replacement panel will be worth it - a straight-line weld is always easier than turning corners.

More crud came out of the door when I cut the rusty part of the outer skin off.  There are a few craters in the bottom of the frame to repair before I splice the repair section in.

Rob


Title: Re: Found Object
Post by: ardiesse on March 29, 2020, 05:10:31 PM
I was foolish enough to say, "a few craters in the bottom of the frame to repair . . ."  It more resembled a colander, once I'd chipped the rust scale away and wire-brushed it.

It's repaired now, but took all day.

Question for the brains trust:  What is the best paint/preservative to use on the inner parts of a door, especially freshly welded parts?

Rob


Title: Re: Found Object
Post by: Errol62 on March 29, 2020, 06:23:40 PM
If you have a nice clean surf@ce to put paint on you couldnít go past the Epotec 2k Iíve been using.(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20200329/457c56806087965e40b09bbb34832dc3.jpg)
 Then cavity wax or synthetic fish oil.


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Title: Re: Found Object
Post by: ardiesse on April 04, 2020, 06:52:14 PM
I didn't like the idea of two-pack paint (no experience, don't have a functioning spray gun at the moment, would prefer to brush the paint on . . .) so yesterday I tried the black epoxy from Super Cheap.  It says you can apply it without primer.  Anyway, wire brush, some sandpaper, Deoxidine, and then a lick of paint.

(https://i.imgur.com/Z7oZVjV.jpg)

(Sorry, over-exposed highlights)

And then, by the time sunset came around:

(https://i.imgur.com/eFixBBd.jpg)

The 90/10 rule applies to welding sheet metal too.  Preparation, preparation, preparation.  Get the gaps even.  Line the donor piece up carefully.  Quenching block in hard contact with the seam is absolutely essential.  I have a ~1" thick x 10" long piece of machined aluminium, and I drilled and tapped it M3 in five places.  I notched the parent and donor pieces to take the screws, and then spent a lot of time moving the quenching block from place to place.  Tack welds first.  Sand them down with a disc and backing pad.  Then a series of half-inch welds.  I put a folded wet towel about an inch above the seam.  Double duty: it keeps the panel cool, and it damps out sound when I use the angle grinder.  Weld.  Tap weld while still hot.  Wipe with damp rag to cool weld site.  Go somewhere else.  After a half-dozen welds, sand them down, planish.  Do not rush.

I'm quite happy with the result.  I still have to "tip" the folds over and then massage the door to suit the opening.  A quick hit with Deoxidine, and some clear-coat, and the Frankenstein scars will still be visible.

Rob


Title: Re: Found Object
Post by: Errol62 on April 04, 2020, 07:59:48 PM
So a two pack Rob?

Nice work keeping the skin flat.

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Title: Re: Found Object
Post by: Luke Healey on April 04, 2020, 09:58:31 PM
Some good tips there for a beginner welder like myself. Cheers, Luke

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Title: Re: Found Object
Post by: ardiesse on April 11, 2020, 06:09:58 PM
The RHR door is now rust-converted, red-oxide-primed and matt-black-epoxy enamelled on the inside.

I started "Found Object" up, drove it out of the garage, and set to work on the passenger's side doors.  The car now weighs about a kilo less than it did this morning.  The amount of rust scale and dirt that came out of the passenger's side doors . . .

And it was the usual amount of trouble stripping the LHR door down.  Window seized solid in the bailey channels, and the window glass lift channel came off when I tried to pull the glass down.  And the division channel stud was rusted firmly in place.

Hint for the amateur door dismantler:  Use a MAP gas torch with a gentle flame, aimed directly upwards on the stud and the threaded tab.  Heat until just red (and make sure nothing else catches fire), allow to cool, and the stud will come free.

LHF door will wait until the sun is shining again.

Catastrophe narrowly averted:  My nephew has been flogging his Xbox to within an inch of its life.  Its "most exquisite quality" replacement power supply got hot and let out the magic smoke, complete with exploding electrolytic capacitor, depriving him of existence in his MMORPGs.  Replacement ordered, but several days' delivery time.  Oh no. Existential crisis.  What to do?  I suggested a car battery and a pair of jumper leads, because an Xbox runs off . . . wait for it, 12 V.  He still had the power supply which came with his previous Xbox, but of course Microsoft designs the accursed things with sui generis power connectors, which (of course) they change with each model release.  The previous model power supply's ratings are about the same as those of his present model's power supply.  So Muggins here defeated the bloody tamper-proof Torx screws with a centre-punch and a drill, exchanged the DC supply cords, bridged out the +5V and +12V return terminals, and replaced the covers with duct tape, as befitting an emergency repair.  My nephew is now back in the Metaverse with his Adelaide cousins.  Phew.  After all, what else would I be doing on a sunny weekend afternoon?  Hmm.  Let me think . . .

Oh yes, there was yesterday's effort with his A6 and its aftermarket fulli-sik wirelessly-controlled exhaust bypass gimcrackery, which allows him to go from stealth mode to annoy-the-neighbours mode with the touch of a button.  Except when the butterfly valve actuators only drive in one direction when attached to the vehicle, but yet in both directions when removed from the vehicle . . .  That was a subtle one.

Rob


Title: Re: Found Object
Post by: ardiesse on April 12, 2020, 06:05:14 PM
The RHR door is now reassembled with all internal hardware.  Jobs like these are much easier the second time around.

The LHR door is red-oxide-primered inside.

The LHF door is stripped down, wire-brushed internally and rust-converted.  It was the usual fight to get it apart (read entry for LHR door), but it must have had some replacement internals in (say) the '70s.  The division channel bailey was in excellent condition, good enough to read 7408509 in pencil on the rear, and the window glass and lift channel were also in excellent condition, with 7408344 in crayon on the rubber flap (still pliable!).  Quarter window was shattered, and the frame's festy, but I've got a replacement in good enuff condition.  just waiting for Rares to get a LHF quarter window rubber.

Rob


Title: Re: Found Object
Post by: my8thholden on April 13, 2020, 07:39:45 AM
Rob..Got my front 1/4 rubbers from Old Auto at Penrith ,they were Rares product ,they may still have stock if Rares are out ..Vern..


Title: Re: Found Object
Post by: ardiesse on April 13, 2020, 01:44:14 PM
The best place to store panels is on the vehicle . . .

(https://i.imgur.com/F2Ay2M2.jpg)

It's enough to make me think there's some hope yet.

But I'm in a bit of a quandary with the passenger's door:

(https://i.imgur.com/M6TghAW.jpg)

There's really only paint holding the rust together.  The holes are just big enough to make me think I should try patching them.  But if I start welding, I'll need to replace a strip about fifteen inches long.  Maybe a few tack welds and a liberal coat of seam sealer on the inside, once I've rust-convertered and primered the inside surface.

Rob


Title: Re: Found Object
Post by: ardiesse on April 14, 2020, 06:06:15 PM
"The sun comes up, it's a new day dawning . . ."

I ummed and ahhed for a while.  I have neither bog nor seam-sealer.  But I do have a welder.  And I found an offcut from the donor door that was about the right length.  So I bit the bullet, marked up and cut the graft, took a deep breath, and sliced out the diseased section of the door.

Mister MIG had been acting a bit ornery for a couple of years now.  Sometimes when I started an arc, there'd be a loud "bang", the feed would go "rrrr-r-r", and the welding wire would melt into the tip and stick.  Or I'd start an arc, and there'd be an empty "hmmmm" sound, and I'd watch a ball of melt go from sand-grain to peppercorn and not actually transfer to the job.  Then when I pulled the wire out to free it, there'd be a quarter-inch length of melt, next to the feed wire.  It had melted inside the tip.

And then a "no shit, Sherlock" moment:  I haven't replaced the tip in all the >20 years and three restoration jobs I've had the welder.  The welding wire had at least its own diameter of clearance inside the tip.  That means it's worn out.  I remember that a small bag of accessories came with the welder when I bought it.  After 20 years?  Well, I found it.  New tip, and the welder is transformed.  It now operates reliably on the lowest current setting.  Useful when trying to weld paper-thin metal.

(https://i.imgur.com/2LnxsGH.jpg)

My intention is to use no bog.  Just welds.

This one makes it four doors rescued.  Front guards next.

Rob


Title: Re: Found Object
Post by: JOX515 on April 14, 2020, 06:53:27 PM
>20 years and it is not working properly...Ö they just don't make things to last these days..   :)


Title: Re: Found Object
Post by: ardiesse on April 14, 2020, 06:58:19 PM
Umm, yeah.  I was getting to the stage of thinking I'd have to buy another welder.  But I couldn't cope with the thought of just putting it in the bin.

Hare and Forbes most likely won't have replacement parts for a twenty-year-old el-cheapo MIG welder, so I'll reverse-engineer the tip and get the machine shop at work to make a few for me.

Rob


Title: Re: Found Object
Post by: my8thholden on April 15, 2020, 07:43:00 AM
Your planning on welding for another 20 yrs !!!!!..Rob ,if your stuck I can loan you a gasless " el cheapo " welder ..Vern ..


Title: Re: Found Object
Post by: ardiesse on April 19, 2020, 06:04:56 PM
"Found Object" is now a four-door again.  I know where a lot of the weight in a Holden lies: the front doors.  With all their hardware, they're heavy.  And swinging a front door single-handed [sarcasm]is no trouble at all[/sarcasm].  The usual gotchas in rebuilding a front door applied:

The Rare Spares quarter window rivets need reworking to fit FE-FC quarter windows.  The hole in the outer frame is 1/8" (3.2 mm) diameter; the hole in the quarter window frame is say 5.85 mm dia.  The Rares rivet is 6.20 mm (so not even 1/4") diameter on the first shoulder, and 3.53 mm dia on the stem.  It's easy enough to drill the hole in the outer frame to 3.5 dia, but I didn't want to rework the hole in the quarter window frame for fear of breaking the glass.  So I chucked the rivet into the drill press and filed the first shoulder down until it fitted into the hole in the outer frame.  The rivet stem was a good press-fit in the 3.5 dia. hole.  I used a 3" G-clamp and a 5 mm socket and eased the rivet into place.  Peening the rivet over is a job for Vishnu (you need four hands . . .) but manageable.

The bailey channel kit supplied by Rare Spares is an inch too long for a rear door and an inch too short for a front door.

The front quarter window division channel strip has two "ribs" that run down the sides on the face that attaches to the division channel.  It's best to grind these off before fitting the strip.  (bench grinder, patience).  And ordinary super-glue bonds the rubber strip to the division channel very well.

Remember to put the window winder in place before installing the front division channel.  Otherwise you'll have to take it out again to get the window winder into place.  The best order of installing internal components is:

Door lock mechanism, rear bailey channel retainer, rear bailey channel, window glass in door, window winder, rain deflector, quarter window assembly, then the division channel.  Install the division channel stud from inside the door, before putting the division channel in place.  Push the quarter window assembly into place and loosely install the lower two screws.  Put the window into the rear channel, engage it into the division channel, line the division channel up, install the top quarter window screw, slide the window half-way up, install the two screws at the rear bottom of the quarter window.  Adjust the division channel stud, tighten the locknut, slide the window all the way down, engage the lift channel with the window winder.  Now is a good time to install the door belt weatherstrips, if you are happy that the window glass slides freely.  Install and tighten the window winder screws.  Install the top bailey channel.  Job done.

Rob


Title: Re: Found Object
Post by: mcl1959 on April 19, 2020, 07:56:58 PM
Good job Rob, thatís a good set of instructions. Iíve done up and undone that many components in the front doors itís not funny. Itís like you say, half do something and then put another piece in. Then put another random piece in and go back to the first thing you were working on.

Ken



Title: Re: Found Object
Post by: Errol62 on April 20, 2020, 12:00:27 AM
Yep  good description Rob

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Title: Re: Found Object
Post by: my8thholden on April 20, 2020, 08:00:37 AM
hey Rob ,,Ive just done mine ,and ditto , I elected to put top bailey channel in before side ones ,support on the ends  ..Vern ..


Title: Re: Found Object
Post by: ardiesse on April 20, 2020, 05:31:24 PM
The exploded diagram starts.

(https://i.imgur.com/zOaRo6K.jpg)

Despite the car's generally run-down appearance, this was the first time the front bumper, apron panel and grille have been removed from the car.  The self-tapping screws hadn't been disturbed . . . up till now.  There'll be lots more disturbances to come.

I didn't realise that there was a rubber gasket between the front guards and the grille frame.

And I can set to work on the holes in the subframe apron and radiator supports while the subframe's still on the car.  When the subframe apron fills up with water and mud, there's only one place the gunk can drain to: the subframe tie member, courtesy the holes for the crossmember outrigger bracket.  The tie member itself will have to wait until the subframe's off, though.

Rob


Title: Re: Found Object
Post by: Errol62 on April 20, 2020, 05:58:33 PM
Looks like you are having fun Rob.


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Title: Re: Found Object
Post by: ardiesse on April 20, 2020, 06:23:10 PM
Yeah.  The bumper bolts, particularly, didn't want to let go.  Good cop/bad cop routine (WD-40/MAP gas torch) was quite persuasive.  After removing all the screws I pulled on the grille.  Didn't budge.  Thought that Holden's engineers might have hidden a couple of screws out of sight (think '48 grilles), but no.  Anyway, bit by bit the grille unstuck.

It's easier having pulled an FC apart already.  When I got my other FC, I knew EKs, I knew humpies, but had no FE/FC experience.

Rob


Title: Re: Found Object
Post by: Longman on April 20, 2020, 07:13:28 PM
Got any pics of the grille gasket?


Title: Re: Found Object
Post by: ardiesse on April 20, 2020, 08:32:55 PM
I only have fragments of it (the gasket, that is).  I reckon that a piece of truck inner tube cut to shape would do the trick.  And/or mastic sealant.

Rob


Title: Re: Found Object
Post by: mcl1959 on April 20, 2020, 09:41:35 PM
Not only did the grille have a gasket but the guards had them too. Up near the grille and down the bottom near the bottom of the door.

Ken


Title: Re: Found Object
Post by: Longman on April 21, 2020, 06:31:45 AM
Not only did the grille have a gasket but the guards had them too. Up near the grille and down the bottom near the bottom of the door.

Ken

Thanks Jen, so not factory then. I know the guards had lacing along the door end.


Title: Re: Found Object
Post by: my8thholden on April 21, 2020, 07:45:25 AM
Gents ..yes please more info and any pics of grille / guard gaskets ..My vehicle had no gaskets around the grille ..The guards ,there is the just the outer door / guard seal ,no other gasket was evident on dismantling ,just bitumen based sealer ..and lots of it  .yes I would love to know what where ??? thanks stay well Vern


Title: Re: Found Object
Post by: mcl1959 on April 21, 2020, 02:46:37 PM
Not the dust seal, a rubber sleeve over the bottom of the guard edge where it contacted the body at the sill.

Ken


Title: Re: Found Object
Post by: mcl1959 on April 21, 2020, 02:58:58 PM
(https://i.postimg.cc/Wt6zMK6L/BED3049-C-C388-493-F-BB40-0-BEE23-C24-C12.jpg) ($2)

These are the guard seals or antisqueak. 1 goes down the grille and one at the bottom of the guard.

They are mentioned below in the workshop manual under installation

(https://i.postimg.cc/YjkYKQd7/F201-BF46-8061-4-EEE-8-FC0-F3-E89-E2-A9801.jpg) ($2)

Ken


Title: Re: Found Object
Post by: ardiesse on April 21, 2020, 06:22:15 PM
The rubber that goes between the front guard's "mouth" and the grille frame appears to be a specially moulded part, in that it has a groove moulded in it so it can slip over the leading edge of the guard and stay there.  I could see the remains of the strip that runs along the top of the subframe skirt, and the part of the front door seal that goes between the rear of the front guard and the body.  But I couldn't find any evidence of a rubber strip between the subframe and the grille frame.

The RHF guard's off.  The inside top bolt (the one that you can't see, that's partially hidden by the upper door hinge, that you have to take the front seat out and lie on the front floor to have any hope of removing) was an hour-long project.  Ken, would I be right in thinking that the factory used Taptite screws at the rear of the front guards?  Because they were tight, and they were tight all the way out.

And under the front seat, I found fragments of the November 2, 1932 edition of the Sydney Morning Herald.  No, I kid you not.  Maybe Herbert George Wells was the first owner of this vehicle.

Barber's Towels: one shilling elevenpence ha'penny per dozen.
White damask luncheon serviettes: one and sixpence ha'penny for a half-dozen.
Striped tea-towelling: five and three-quarter pence per yard.

Rob


Title: Re: Found Object
Post by: mcl1959 on April 21, 2020, 09:05:27 PM
The screws at the very rear of the guard at the top are the same as the ones that go down the guard along the door edge.
My method to get them out
Get a 3/8 socket kit and two long extensions with the 7/16 socket on it.
If you go straight up the gap between the dash and body the socket will go straight onto the bolt head and stay there.
It wonít work with a 1/2 drive socket set.

Ken


Title: Re: Found Object
Post by: ardiesse on April 21, 2020, 09:37:16 PM
. . . pretty much as I discovered.  The best is a 1/4" drive 6-point socket, with a 1/4 - 3/8 adaptor, a 3/8" extension, a 3/8 - 1/2 adaptor, a long 1/2" extension, and a ratchet.

Rob


Title: Re: Found Object
Post by: Errol62 on April 22, 2020, 07:52:54 AM
Masking tape to hold the extensions together so you donít lose them?


Title: Re: Found Object
Post by: ardiesse on April 22, 2020, 08:45:32 PM
I thought of that only after dropping a 1/2" socket down the cowl.  But I remembered some of Harv's advice and wadded a rag into the bottom of the cowl panel.

The front door hinges need new hinge pins and springs, so it may be more convenient to fit the front guards with the front door hinges out.

Rob


Title: Re: Found Object
Post by: Errol62 on April 22, 2020, 08:54:49 PM
Fished a few bits of hardware out of the a pillar bottoms with magnet on a piece of tie wire.


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Title: Re: Found Object
Post by: my8thholden on April 23, 2020, 06:57:24 AM
I was hoping to find something under the floor or swab of the seats to lead me to original owner ,an envelope with an address or a invoice or a paid receipt ,but no ,there was ,two one dollar coins , part of Tally HO cigarette paper pack ,50c piece ,old shopping list scribbled on piece of paper ,hardly legible ,and a 1941 threepence coin ..Vern


Title: Re: Found Object
Post by: ardiesse on April 24, 2020, 03:10:54 PM
Here's the right hand front guard.

(https://i.imgur.com/MPudHbf.jpg)

It's a curious mix of the rotten and the sound.  The lower sill section is basically just air, but yet the headlight peak is good.  The lip of the guard at the top of the wheel arch is paper-thin, where it had been bent out of the way, and then left to rust.  Judging on that and the flattened webbing on the brake drums between the stud holes, I think that the car once had a set of widened Torana rims.

The stratigraphic record (as the geologists would say) is quite revealing.  First was underbody schutz under the headlight peak and along the rear inside of the guard.  Then somebody wadded up some rags and jammed them into the rear of the guard.  Then came something which looked for all the world like spray concrete.  The front indicator/parking lamp holder had been coated liberally in white mastic, and then painted over black.  Over time, of course, the underbody schutz separated from the metal in places, and the metal mice started gnawing.  With all that crud stripped out, the panel's much lighter than it was.

I set to work on the rear upper guard, but made the rookie-level mistake of too small a patch, and had to weld air in a few places.  Then I needed to put in another postage-stamp size patch.  Anyway, it came good.

(https://i.imgur.com/IHN2v0K.jpg)

I've got a Rare Spares lower front guard repair section to graft in over the weekend.  Says it's for FB/EK, but it will do the job.  The main drama will be in working out where to cut in order to avoid rust-pitted sections.

Rob


Title: Re: Found Object
Post by: Errol62 on April 24, 2020, 08:09:21 PM
Pity I cant lend you my fancy crimping tool over the back fence Rob or are you going to butt it? I did one on the FB recently, Was the large extended one. After I wished I'd gone smaller.

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Title: Re: Found Object
Post by: my8thholden on April 24, 2020, 09:41:22 PM
Rob.so welder is all good again ?


Title: Re: Found Object
Post by: ardiesse on April 24, 2020, 09:45:17 PM
Clay,

I'm planning on butting the join.  The repair piece I've got goes up just past the lowest bolt-hole in the rear of the mudguard.  My guard is rusted out to the point where the wheel arch lip becomes the sill's reveal line, and I think I'm going to need most of the repair panel.  I'll find out tomorrow.  It'll be one of these things where the closer the repair piece approaches the car, the more work it'll need to fit.

Rob


Title: Re: Found Object
Post by: ardiesse on April 24, 2020, 09:53:15 PM
Vern,

Yep.  I replaced the tip and the welder is behaving waay better than it had.  On the FB-EK forum, one of the guys was talking about "stacking the dimes" when TIG welding, and another suggested a similar approach with a MIG when the metal's very thin.  So I found if I put in a tack weld, then let the pool solidify (maybe a second), move on about 1/8" and put in another tack weld, and so on, while the metal's still hot, it's a good technique.  Four or five "dimes" in a row, and cool with a damp rag, I get good weld penetration, and don't blow holes.

Rob


Title: Re: Found Object
Post by: Errol62 on April 24, 2020, 10:49:47 PM
The third element being no distortion of course. That is the bit I'm still coming to grips with when it comes to butt welds on 20# sheet. Cooling and patience I know.

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Title: Re: Found Object
Post by: Errol62 on April 24, 2020, 10:50:42 PM
That and hammer and dolly.

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Title: Re: Found Object
Post by: ardiesse on April 25, 2020, 01:12:02 PM
I've started massaging the lower front guard repair section to suit.

(https://i.imgur.com/j4RTrEz.jpg)

I'll now concede that the FB/EK front guard lower repair sections are intended for . . . wait for it . . . FB/EK.  It's got to do with the profile of the wheel arch lip.  The piece of A4 paper (folded back) is a template for the FC wheel arch lip.  It only deviates from the FB/EK repair section's profile for the front three inches or so.  Some hammer-and-dolly work and (perhaps) a nip and weld should get it right.

And a fair amount of reworking is needed to get the reveal line's profile to resemble the original.  More work with hammer, dolly and sandbag.

Rob


Title: Re: Found Object
Post by: ardiesse on April 25, 2020, 03:41:45 PM
This is looking a lot better.

(https://i.imgur.com/fp1lOIb.jpg)

I didn't have to do a nip-and-weld like I thought.  And the inner edge of the return lined up pretty well, as an added bonus.

Rob


Title: Re: Found Object
Post by: my8thholden on April 25, 2020, 08:21:14 PM
Well Rob ,looks like you are on a roll ,keep at it ,there is no social distancing from the welder or grinder ..Vern


Title: Re: Found Object
Post by: my8thholden on April 26, 2020, 07:03:01 AM
Rob..I just read your comments on weld ,and I am NO grand welder ,by any means ,we have used .92mm cold rolled steel sheet , splash a bit of water on it in morning ,by afternoon you can see the rust ,so we have been careful with rust proof on the reverse side on everything ,and yes ,we have found tac your work in place , then come back and fill in the gaps ,even then bit by bit ,letting cool as you go ...cheers Vern


Title: Re: Found Object
Post by: ardiesse on April 26, 2020, 05:20:07 PM
The repair piece is tacked in place.

(https://i.imgur.com/tbkNxHk.jpg)

It looks like I moved the peak of the wheel arch lip a little too far.  I suppose this is the difference between overlapping the repair section and "patient", and butting them.  I'll have to bring the peak back gently.

The holes that Rare Spares provide for the two lower mounting bolts are never in the right place, it seems.  So I blanked them off.  The best thing to do will be to wait until I've replaced the sill, and then drill the inner sill flange and mudguard in one go.

Rob


Title: Re: Found Object
Post by: zulu on April 26, 2020, 08:06:40 PM

Rob, almost call that done, it's already black!
Seriously though, good progress


Title: Re: Found Object
Post by: ardiesse on April 26, 2020, 08:28:18 PM
Gary,

That's the good thing about the Rare Spares repair sections - they come handily pre-painted.  I'm still wondering about leaving the ID stickers on the panel, but they'll most likely burn near the weld seam.

Rob


Title: Re: Found Object
Post by: Errol62 on April 26, 2020, 09:15:14 PM
You'll strip that black off I daresay Rob. Well d one, the FB EK patch was a good starting point, the price is re a s unable when you c insider the labour saved. Sorry about the bad syntax but you get the drift.

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Title: Re: Found Object
Post by: my8thholden on April 27, 2020, 08:09:11 AM
Hey Rob .They were talking the other day on this forum about rubber gaskets at lower guard and grille ,I found bits of rubber in the grille box but don't know where a new one would fit or what it looks like ,I see you have your grille out could you indicate size and where , I don't recall any rubber in front guard and I am approaching that job this week ,right where you have shown the lower repair piece you are welding in ,the outer door seal runs down leading edge of door and then down and back along under the scuff plate ,does it go from that turn point in outer seal down to sill ,that area is really in the line of stuff coming off a rotating front wheel ..looks a tricky little place to make a gasket for ..any images of any one doing this ,guard and grille ...stay well Vern


Title: Re: Found Object
Post by: ardiesse on April 27, 2020, 10:11:41 AM
Vern,

For the seal that runs down the rear of the front guard, I'd suggest bicycle inner tube cemented into place.  It would run along the "step" in the cowl at the top, and then all the way down the leading edge of the front door, to finish just above the front subframe bolt head.  As far as I know, the front guard does not have the "return" below the subframe bolt.  You can probably confirm this from your front guards.

Rob


Title: Re: Found Object
Post by: ardiesse on April 28, 2020, 02:25:13 PM
Vern,

I've looked at the grille-to-subframe rubber and the front guard-to-grille rubber.

The grille-to-subframe rubber is 12-1/2" long, 1" wide (approx.), and will need to be relieved at one place to clear the "ear" at the front guard flange.

The front guard-to-grille rubber is also 12-1/2" long and about 1" wide.  It'll need to be trimmed to suit the front guard's flange where it butts up against the grille, and will need to have two holes for the mounting screws.

Car or truck inner tube would be my suggestion.

Rob


Title: Re: Found Object
Post by: mcl1959 on April 28, 2020, 02:37:47 PM
You will be lucky to get a grille to subframe rubber in place, itís generally a tight fit and the thickness of the rubber plus the added friction doesnít help. Guard to grille rubber no problem.



Title: Re: Found Object
Post by: ardiesse on April 29, 2020, 04:47:13 PM
The front guard is essentially repaired.

(https://i.imgur.com/VWSYOTV.jpg)

I put in the little return section that had rusted away, knocked out a reasonable-size dent between the headlight and indicator, and "coloured-in" a couple of fingernail-size rust holes.  A welder and quenching block is quicker than bog, and more permanent.

LHF guard next.  But dark clouds on the horizon, with cold and rainy weather coming.

Rob


Title: Re: Found Object
Post by: Errol62 on April 29, 2020, 06:40:43 PM
Good weather for doing rust repairs as long as youíve got sheddage Rob


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Title: Re: Found Object
Post by: ardiesse on April 29, 2020, 06:54:48 PM
. . . but no door on the downstairs workshop, and the wind blows the rain inside.


Title: Re: Found Object
Post by: DJ on May 01, 2020, 11:21:22 AM
..any images of any one doing this ,guard and grille ...

Did you get any pictures Vern?


Title: Re: Found Object
Post by: ardiesse on May 02, 2020, 01:45:56 PM
Vern,

Haec epistula pro te est.

Pars interiora alae dextrae picturata rubra est.

(https://i.imgur.com/MwkJfDb.jpg)

Dum exspecto rubrum siccare, abstuli alam sinistram.

(https://i.imgur.com/PsQZmLa.jpg)

Sordida est!  Multus humus ad ea adhaesus est.  Sed videtur que ala sinsistra minorem ferruginem habet quam alam dextram.  Prime debeo totum illum humum detergere ab ea.

Rob


Title: Re: Found Object
Post by: DJ on May 02, 2020, 02:19:31 PM
That's exactly how I would have described it.


Title: Re: Found Object
Post by: ardiesse on May 02, 2020, 04:21:37 PM
Once all the crud is scraped away, the secrets are revealed.

(https://i.imgur.com/NqBRBdS.jpg)

This is a little more like what I'd expect.  I have to repair the headlight peak.  No surprise really.

Rob


Title: Re: Found Object
Post by: my8thholden on May 02, 2020, 05:48:14 PM
Rob..I only did Latin first year of high school ,and always sat near a window..metal work and wood work got me away from the window ..I doubt there would be any guards not needing work around headlight peaks .join the club....your powering on ..cheers Vern .


Title: Re: Found Object
Post by: ardiesse on May 02, 2020, 05:56:09 PM
Vern,

That's one more year of high-school Latin than me.  The classical languages had been abandoned by the time I got to high school.

Rob


Title: Re: Found Object
Post by: HAD 708 on May 02, 2020, 09:44:11 PM
Rob
I am loving watching this post ,its great very enjoyable.
Thanks
Brett


Title: Re: Found Object
Post by: ardiesse on May 03, 2020, 05:02:36 PM
At first I thought I'd only have a couple of pinholes to repair above the reveal line on the LHF guard.  But it quickly turned into an exercise in welding air, so I figured I'd best slice out the diseased portion and replace it.

(https://i.imgur.com/bjqGSbR.jpg)

The "door that keeps giving" is supplying my needs for repair patches.  As for the part of the lower guard below the reveal line, I thought (as usual) that I'd only need maybe a 3 x 3 cm patch.  But as I wire-brushed and scraped, more and more daylight appeared.  I can probably keep the repair to the gently curved section, which means (hopefully) that I only need to bend the donor piece in just one direction.

Let's see.  I have an FB-EK LHF lower guard repair section just in case things go badly wrong.

Which reminds me - Does anybody want a set of four half-door skins for FE-FC (will also suit FB-EK)?  I rescued my doors without needing to use them.

Rob


Title: Re: Found Object
Post by: Errol62 on May 03, 2020, 09:31:52 PM
Thanks for the offer Rob. Must say, after collecting panels for over 20 years, Iíve been quite a bit luckier with doors and bonnets than I have with guards, or for that matter boot lids and tailgates.


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Title: Re: Found Object
Post by: my8thholden on May 04, 2020, 07:29:26 AM
Rob ..You will place the 4 door skins no problems ,I hope its not me that needs them ..keep at it ..Vern


Title: Re: Found Object
Post by: FireKraka on May 04, 2020, 10:07:20 AM
Hi Rob;
I might be interested in the door skins mate can you PM me with a price.

Neil


Title: Re: Found Object
Post by: ardiesse on May 06, 2020, 03:33:29 PM
Another day at the "office" . . .

(https://i.imgur.com/DUVEYxj.jpg)

That's the lower rear section of the LHF guard repaired.  There's a rust hole at the cowl-bonnet-fender junction (shouldn't be too hard).  The welded reinforcement for the front bumper is rotten, so it'll need the spot-welds to be drilled, removed, both pieces repaired, and reassembled.  Time for a spot-weld drill, I think, because there'll be many more spot welds to drill by the time this project's finished.

And, of course, there's the headlight peak to repair too.  Happy days . . .

Rob


Title: Re: Found Object
Post by: ardiesse on May 06, 2020, 05:23:04 PM
The hole at the cowl-bonnet-fender junction is filled in.  I filed the hole out until the metal was more than paper-thin and grafted a piece in.  The shock of welding then pinged a piece of scale off the guard, revealing another hole.  Duly coloured-in with "liquid-metal-gun" and quenching block.  Quenching block nearly became a permanent addition to the guard.  That's the problem with steel.  Use non-ferrous metal instead.

Rob


Title: Re: Found Object
Post by: Errol62 on May 06, 2020, 08:36:43 PM
Donít you love WFH Rob? I got 4 coats of primer on the ute today 8) 8)


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Title: Re: Found Object
Post by: ardiesse on May 06, 2020, 08:42:06 PM
. . . going over to FB-EK to see.


Title: Re: Found Object
Post by: Errol62 on May 06, 2020, 08:53:26 PM
Better go down the shed and take some pics.


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Title: Re: Found Object
Post by: ardiesse on May 08, 2020, 04:52:12 PM
This is getting a little obsessive-compulsive.

(https://i.imgur.com/LUXn1VY.jpg)

It's the reinforcing bracket where the front bumper bolts on.

I went to Lee Brothers and bought an 8 mm spot-weld drill, and it was fantastic.  Like a hot knife through butter, until I broke the tip off. (Fffricative).  I had an old 5/16" drill, and attempted to rework it into a spot-weld drill.  But it didn't work anywhere near as well.  I'm guessing that toolmakers will have an array of grinders and stones which put a home bench grinder to shame.

Rob


Title: Re: Found Object
Post by: ardiesse on May 09, 2020, 04:10:47 PM
The slightly fiddly repair to the LHF guard near the bumper mount is complete.

(https://i.imgur.com/4Eh7SC5.jpg)

The bracket is yet to be plug-welded in place, but I figured I'd put a little paint on the hidden surfaces before welding.  Then more paint afterwards.

And now, "What Lies Beneath", a.k.a. the headlight peak:

(https://i.imgur.com/AQRNFzs.jpg)

Beneath the paint was bog.
Beneath the bog was a leaded repair.
Beneath the leaded repair was (i) a piece of galvanised sheet and (ii) a couple of oxy-welded repairs.
And beneath the galvanised sheet and the welded patches was about half an inch of body schutz.

There must have been a time when lead-wiping was the norm for body repairs, and this new-fangled polyester filler was for fine finishing before paint.

There's a few hours' work here.  Most of it will probably be in the inner section where the headlamp bucket goes. The outer part looks gruesome, but will probably fix (relatively) easily.

Rob


Title: Re: Found Object
Post by: DJ on May 09, 2020, 05:08:31 PM
Nice job around the bumper mount Rob.
The headlight peak has a lot of history! Good to see it will all be replaced by someone dedicated to produce quality work. Looking forward to see what you come up with protect the peak from filling in future. I have thought about fitting a shaped mud flap to let the moisture & grim slide down the inner guard instead of forcing itself into the peak. That's a far as it's gone so far though.


Title: Re: Found Object
Post by: Errol62 on May 09, 2020, 05:50:58 PM
Lead was used to fill rust holes in the tailgate reveal on my ute, with wee bit of bog in the spare wheel door reveal bottoms done later Iíd say. But the lead was used exclusively where it was used.


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Title: Re: Found Object
Post by: ardiesse on May 09, 2020, 06:03:13 PM
I can't see that I'll be driving the car down muddy unsealed roads much, and in the event, a Gerni once home works marvels.

Mind you, I remember driving from Marree to William Creek when it rained, and another time from Birdsville to Innamincka via Haddon's Corner in the rain.  The car was just about sitting on the bump stops from all the mud in the guards.

Clay, you're right about wiping lead.  I thought that once it set and cooled down (a minute or so), you'd get out with the body file, shape the repair, then undercoat and paint.  No need for bog.

Rob


Title: Re: Found Object
Post by: Errol62 on May 09, 2020, 06:47:06 PM
I got about three wheel barrows of clay from under the EK215 after some paddock work one autumn up near Snowtown. Mostly in the front guards. Sat real low.


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Title: Re: Found Object
Post by: ardiesse on May 10, 2020, 05:48:34 PM
More dis-covery.  I melted and wire-brushed the remaining body lead away, and decided to excise the oxy-welded patches, just to see what lay underneath.

(https://i.imgur.com/IskBPcg.jpg)

Yep.  The patches had been laid upon rusted-out areas and then welded in.

And when I tried to hammer the ridge back to its original profile, it split open.  Sure enough, attempting to weld the split was a fool's errand.  So.  The body file had obviously been taken to the headlight peak.  My repairs are going to be more extensive than I thought at first . . .

Rob


Title: Re: Found Object
Post by: ardiesse on May 14, 2020, 05:41:40 PM
This "office work" can get quite involved, what with size, shape, curvature and other formatting options.

(https://i.imgur.com/6I1aiLx.jpg)

The unused piece of the Rare Spares RHF lower guard repair section was the right size for the headlight peak repair.  It was then a case of cutting and trimming to size, then putting the roll and peak in, and then making the surface convex (gently!).  The headlight surround is the best template, but its profile and the mudguard's profile didn't always agree.  The surround was offset towards the right at the bottom, so I widened the screw-hole and moved the speed-nut until the headlight surround was centred.  Then I was able to grind the leading edge of the repair section so it lined up with the headlight surround, and "rolled" the leading edge over.  Which disturbed the profile as seen from the front.  But the good thing about rolling the edge over is that it lends some rigidity to the repair section, and it didn't take too much effort to get the repair section to line up with the headlight surround.

So that's the bigger of the two outer headlight peak repair sections.  The inner section, with the flange for mounting the headlamp bucket, came next.

The "door that keeps giving" abruptly stopped giving, because I discovered bogged-up holes in the part I cut out.  The door was from an FC Special, and I'd reached the holes for the chrome strips.  But I had an old FJ front door that had seen better days.  My plan was to make a cylindrical section, and then "tuck-shrink" the headlight flange.  I had the wooden form to do it (a 9" diameter cylinder).  How hard can tuck-shrinking be?

"What's tuck-shrinking?", I hear you ask.  Google it.  You need a tool called a "tucking fork" (I am not making this up, Reverend Spooner), which you can make out of two old centre-punches welded side-by-side, with a T-handle welded onto the back.  You use the tucking fork to pucker the edge you want to fold over, and then bit by bit hammer the puckers down flat with hammer and dolly, then put the puckers in again, lather, rinse, repeat.

With thin sheet-metal, you can use round-nose pliers instead of a tucking fork.  But it's hard on the hands.  I got the flange to about 45 degrees, and then it got too hard.  As you hammer out the puckers, the metal shrinks, gets thicker, and gets harder to work.  So I got out with the angle grinder, put in a dozen or so nips, hammered the flange to shape, and welded the cuts.  Not as pretty.  Much easier.

(https://i.imgur.com/8iEpFba.jpg)

Then I reproduced the cutouts in the headlight flange by looking at the marks in the headlight bucket's gasket and grinding to suit.  And finally I relieved the places around the mounting holes where the speed-nuts go, lined the headlight bucket up and drilled the screw holes.

The plan is to cut away the rotten top half of the headlight mounting flange, which will give me clear access to the seams when I weld the outer peak repair into place.  When that's done I can splice in the inner section, trim to shape at the front, and weld in the "return" for the headlight peak.

What can possibly go wrong?

Rob


Title: Re: Found Object
Post by: Errol62 on May 14, 2020, 08:29:35 PM
Clever work Rob. Hey donít the mounting screws tap into little spring tabs like the FB EK ones? Apologies to those in the know if Iím being a philistine in making this comparison with the obviously inferior younger siblings of the venerable FC.


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Title: Re: Found Object
Post by: ardiesse on May 14, 2020, 09:33:01 PM
Clay,

Yes, the headlight mounts do have the spring tabs.  I'll enlarge the holes to the right size and install the tabs when the piece is welded in place.

Rob


Title: Re: Found Object
Post by: FireKraka on May 15, 2020, 09:18:46 AM
Great work Rob
Neil


Title: Re: Found Object
Post by: ardiesse on May 15, 2020, 05:15:43 PM
"What could possibly go wrong?"

Not much.  Apart from it being 13 degrees, grey and drizzling . . .
The outer headlight peak repairs are now metal-glued in place.  Inner repair section and bridging-of-the-gap tomorrow.

Daytona 8 mm spot-weld drill works well, I am happy to report, and I haven't even broken the tip off it yet.

Rob


Title: Re: Found Object
Post by: ardiesse on May 17, 2020, 02:10:50 PM
Well, that was no trouble at all [\sarcasm].

(https://i.imgur.com/smd7Cjh.jpg)

Outer peak repair sections welded into place.  Headlight flange massaged into position and then welded.  But, as usual, the smaller pieces are the time-consuming ones.  To join the outer and inner repair sections took three smaller pieces.  It just seemed easier doing it that way.

And getting the headlight surround into the right position is a topic worthy of its own thread.

Next: rust converter, primer, epoxy enamel on the inside.

Rob


Title: Re: my8thholden Build
Post by: Errol62 on May 17, 2020, 05:24:02 PM
Tidy welds. They look continuous rather than individual spots.

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Title: Re: Found Object
Post by: ardiesse on May 17, 2020, 07:10:06 PM
Yeah.  I put in tack welds every inch or so, then laid in a series of half-inch welds between them, then zipped up the remaining quarter-inch gaps.  I overlapped the ends of the welds, so that when dressed down, the seam looks continuous.

Rob


Title: Re: Found Object
Post by: my8thholden on May 18, 2020, 07:52:20 AM
Rob..Coming along nicely ,good work ,if you start a headlight surround thread ,we can contribute in a small way ,lets start with a A3 spreadsheet !!!!Vern


Title: Re: Found Object
Post by: ardiesse on May 18, 2020, 05:30:52 PM
. . . wire-brushing the inside of the guard before rust-converting pinged a few more rust scales away, revealing holes.  Out with the welder and file again.  I think I've got them all coloured-in now.

Rob


Title: Re: Found Object
Post by: RET on May 23, 2020, 01:48:31 PM
That old door may have stopped giving, but this is the thread that keeps on giving.

Excellent work Rob, both the attention to detail on the Found Object, and the documentation of the process, the techniques and the tools for those that come after you.

You're an asset to this forum.

cheers
RET


Title: Re: Found Object
Post by: ardiesse on May 23, 2020, 04:10:30 PM
The "Correcting the Mistakes of Others" Department -

The LHF guard didn't have the "difficult" bolt - the second from rear, the one that sits directly below the rear corner of the bonnet when it's open.  The hole had been seam-sealed up shut, which made me wonder . . .

This is what lay underneath when the guard was removed:

(https://i.imgur.com/Jbhqzuo.jpg)

A second hole had been drilled in the subframe skirt, which looked way out of whack.  After scraping the usual layers of dirt, body schutz, bitumen paint and sealer away, this is what I found:

(https://i.imgur.com/nH0j9yl.jpg)

A second hole had been drilled in the body also.  Between the body and the subframe skirt was a good-size lump of sealant, which looked original.  So I'm guessing that the car had been assembled with a bent subframe skirt.  Because when the car was built, Holden was supplying half the new car market in Oz, and the pressure would have been on to get as many Holdens down the production line as possible.  It would have taken too long to pull the car off the line to rectify the fault, and instead the big drill came out.

I can get the guard to fit properly either before I take the subframe off, or after I put it back on.  Before is better.  With the delicatest of instruments (12" multi-grips, Mister Hit and a piece of wood), I brought the subframe skirt back into alignment, and probably for the first time in 60+ years, these two screws are now in their correct places:

(https://i.imgur.com/IVXX8nb.jpg)

Here's the pile of crud I scraped off -

(https://i.imgur.com/DMfAIQN.jpg)

And here is what lay underneath.

(https://i.imgur.com/D3TPGUm.jpg)

No surprises really.  And that's a good-looking outer subframe leg too.  I think it's going to be rotisserie time very soon.

Rob


Title: Re: Found Object
Post by: Errol62 on May 23, 2020, 06:42:56 PM
The fun continues Rob. Will you brace the lower part of the car to do the sills or just get the gaps right and tack weld the doors shut? Presuming it needs inners as well as outer I suppose.
Cheers
Clay


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Title: Re: Found Object
Post by: ardiesse on May 23, 2020, 07:17:47 PM
Clay,

I broke all the rules with my last FC, it seems.  I laid the bare body shell down on a mattress, nearly rolled over on its side, to remove the outer sill and repair the inner.  Then when I was ready to fit the outer sill, I put the body back on the level, swung the doors, and tack-welded and self-tappered the sill in place when the gaps were right.  Then I removed the doors, put the body back on the mattress and put in the zillions of plug-welds at the bottom of the sill.

I'm going to repair the inner sills in place without replacing them.  At the very worst they'll to have the bottom inch or so (bend included) replaced, and fingers crossed, the body shell won't sag on the rotisserie with one outer sill removed.  A bare body shell is quite rigid and doesn't weigh all that much.

Suggested plan of attack:  outer subframe mounts and cowl repairs, No. 1 body crossmember rebuild, test refit of subframe, remove subframe, then front floors, rear floors, rear doglegs, then inner and outer sill, one side at a time.

Which reminds me: I'd better rebuild the front door hinges and get the front doors to swing right before replacing the outer sills.

Rob


Title: Re: Found Object
Post by: ardiesse on May 24, 2020, 02:11:31 PM
OK, so . . . I take to my chrome with a wire brush.  There wouldn't be many others who would do the same.

(https://i.imgur.com/Zz0hlak.jpg)

The grille, like everything else, needs work.  The lower grille bar has a few more holes in it than appeared at first sight.  This is going to be some fun.

Rob


Title: Re: Found Object
Post by: my8thholden on May 24, 2020, 07:44:20 PM
all the hidden challenges , yet they are typical of most of the cars on here when being dismantled after 60 yrs Ö vern


Title: Re: Found Object
Post by: ardiesse on May 31, 2020, 04:45:36 PM
The lower grille bar's repaired.  A lot of holes to fill in, and two larger ones which I patched with sheet.  There's an art to repairing rust holes, but with a non-ferrous quenching block and patience, it's fairly straightforward if time-consuming.  Of course, your average sane person would just go and find a lower grille bar without rust holes.

(https://i.imgur.com/a16VWxr.jpg)

And your average sane person would not bother to repair the drip rail.
I repaired the drip rail.
Syllogisms, anyone?

And the grille frame had a handful of rust holes.  It was easier, though, because it's made of 16-gauge sheet.  The holes are welded, dressed and primered.

Rob


Title: Re: Found Object
Post by: Errol62 on May 31, 2020, 09:01:59 PM
Very satisfying Iím sure rob.


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Title: Re: Found Object
Post by: 59wagon on June 06, 2020, 05:02:57 PM
Loving this thread Rob, itís very ejumakashional.

Cheers, John


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Title: Re: Found Object
Post by: ardiesse on June 06, 2020, 06:00:57 PM
I haven't been out with the camera in the past week, but -

The grille's reassembled.  I rust-convertered, primered and matt-blacked the underside of the lower grille bar, and gave the top side a quick coat of clear to preserve it.  I painted the bottom of the frame, and fish-oiled the rest of it.

The cowl vent's out.  I was expecting the usual struggle to get the control rod to unscrew from its fitting, but it only took gentle heating with a blowtorch, then multi-grips and an adjustable spanner.  And the drain around the vent is in pristine condition.  Y.F.B. . . .

(This is about as far as I got on my previous attempt at posting.  I leant the side of my left hand on the bottom left of the keyboard perhaps a little more than advisable, and all the text I typed vanished.  It was obviously a CTRL-something keystroke.)

The headlining's out.  It only took a couple of minutes' work to disabuse me of the notion that I might be able to re-use it.  It is so brittle I only had to look at it and it tore.  And previous experience told me to label the listing wires the moment I removed them.

The tar-paper sound deadener which was mostly sitting on the headlining instead of glued to the roof is now out.  It appears to have been stapled to the centre roof rail.  Big mud-wasp nest in the roof rail where the dome lamp went.

The C-pillars had been wadded full: of cotton waste on the left side and hessian/coconut fibre underlay on the right.  No idea what the purpose of that would have been.

And way back when, something heavy had been dropped on the roof about a foot in front of the rear window, then a really dodgy bog and spray putty repair was done.  With a sandbag on the roof and a dolly in hand, knocking the dent out was simple.

Rob


Title: Re: Found Object
Post by: Errol62 on June 06, 2020, 07:48:07 PM
Photos or it didnít happen Rob.

My FB ute had latex foam stuffed in the B-pillars. Go figure.


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Title: Re: Found Object
Post by: ardiesse on June 06, 2020, 09:22:18 PM
I'd better make it happen, then.
Tomorrow.
It'll be light outside.


Title: Re: Found Object
Post by: FireKraka on June 07, 2020, 09:29:51 AM
I found foam in the B pillars of my EK Ute too Clay.
Neil


Title: Re: Found Object
Post by: ardiesse on June 07, 2020, 11:48:33 AM
Because descriptions using words are passe -

(https://i.imgur.com/WZcLrag.jpg)

Cowl with vent removed.  This is a major source of worry gone, as I don't have to repair anything here.

The rear bumper had been pushed into the body on the right hand side.  A little traction here and there . . .

(https://i.imgur.com/nT8GInA.jpg)

For the safety-conscious, I should advise that I stood beside the rear quarter panel during this operation, so that if things went pear-shaped, I wouldn't be in the firing line.  It didn't take that much effort to pull the bumper back into position, all things considered.

(https://i.imgur.com/6IMlt73.jpg)

And the rear bumper is now removed.  The body-to-bumper rubbers are complete, but perfectly rigid, so will need replacing.  RHR lower quarter is a mess.

I've now got the car on ramps, and I'm underneath with a MAP-gas torch on the subframe bolts and the exhaust pipe clamps.  Surprisingly, the nut for the left outer subframe bolt still has six sides.  That's a good thing.

Rob


Title: Re: Found Object
Post by: Errol62 on June 07, 2020, 12:12:17 PM
Thanks for the photos, we love photos. Your words are very good too of course.


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Title: Re: Found Object
Post by: ardiesse on June 07, 2020, 06:42:31 PM
I spent the afternoon under the car, fighting with threaded fasteners that didn't want to let go.

The nuts for all four lower subframe bolts loosened and unscrewed.  A six-point 1/2"-drive 1/2" AF socket is a godsend.
The front half of the fuel pipe is out.  I'll most likely have to replace the fuel and brake pipes.  It'll make the blue-slip people a lot happier if I present the car with new pipes.
The tailpipe is out.  I persuaded it out of the muffler with a MAP gas torch and many words of encouragement, some even printable.
The rear spring shackle nuts have been removed.
The front stabilizer bar is out.  I'd never before seen a sway bar post made of an M8x200 coach bolt and old front crossmember spacer tubes.  I reached deep into the store of fricatives to disassemble that piece of engineering genius.
All four shock absorbers are out.  The rears were those bloody Superlift things, and they had seized up solid.  Is it any wonder that the top mounts had torn out?  And for the first time, I used a hacksaw to remove a front shock absorber.  I unscrewed the Nylock nut most of the way off the stud, when the top bit with the flats sheared off flush with the nut.  The lower mounting plates for the front shocks need some attention from Mister MIG.
And the rear springs' front spring eye bolts have defeated me.  A few medium-size blows with a sledgehammer, and they didn't budge.  I heated the inner flanges with the MAP gas torch, and went in harder with the b.f.h, and the bolts didn't budge.

Not in a good mood at the moment.

What's the secret for stubborn rear spring bolts?  More heat?  Bigger hammer?  All of the above, plus a big dolly on the inside hanger, the one where the bolt head fits?  I could slice through the bolts with an angle grinder, but that still leaves the problem of how to remove the bolt head from the hanger . . .

Should I mount the shell on the rotisserie with the rear axle still in place, and then resume operations against the spring eye bolts when I'm not flat on my back under the car?

Rob


Title: Re: Found Object
Post by: Errol62 on June 07, 2020, 07:41:39 PM
Biggest spade bit you can get in your hammer powered impact driver. Get it turning. Plenty of crc. Once turning put 18V or air gun on it with one hand and hammer the other end. They will come.


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Title: Re: Found Object
Post by: Errol62 on June 07, 2020, 07:44:46 PM
Leaving the rear axle in will make it difficult to set up as the arse end will be bottom heavy, and just heavy to manoeuvre in general. You can still get the axle off without removing the springs maybe an option.


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Title: Re: Found Object
Post by: my8thholden on June 08, 2020, 07:15:10 AM
Hey Rob ..You really have been into it ,lying on your back also ,least its not raining ..You have brought to my attention with your last post ,the rear body to bumper rubbers ,none on my car when dismantled,no old evidence of fitment ..IE screw holes,were they on all versions of FC's ? ,could you post close up images and esp how they attach ,cant see them in Rares or Old Auto catalogues either ,if I make them I will make you a pair also ,if you wish to post on here that's OK or if you rather just send to my phone that's fine ..0405 703 413 ..Vern ..


Title: Re: Found Object
Post by: Errol62 on June 08, 2020, 08:17:52 AM
Iíll save you the trouble Rob(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20200607/fdb72fe23e9a0afd9132a119a10f8919.jpg)
These are new ones supplied by Maco on here, recently fitted to my FB ute. They have an L profile, the end of which is crimped under the U section sheet tac welded around the base of the rear corners.


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Title: Re: Found Object
Post by: ardiesse on June 08, 2020, 11:59:46 AM
New day.  Car higher off ground.  Using a second b.f.h. as a dolly, I got the right hand rear spring eye bolt moving with about the usual amount of effort: a few firm to heavy hits.

The left side still refuses to budge.

Rob


Title: Re: Found Object
Post by: ardiesse on June 08, 2020, 02:43:55 PM
The heavy artillery came out.

(https://i.imgur.com/3mn2no5.jpg)

I figured I needed more height so I could swing the hammer not lying down, more reaction mass behind the spring hanger, and an easier target to hit.

The reaction mass and height came as a package: an 850 mm length of rail, which weighs at a guess 40 kg.  The next fun bit (which took all morning) was lifting the car's rear up high enough to get the rail in place when upright.  I maneuvred the rail in and G-clamped it securely in place.  And I could swing the hammer from a seated position.

The easier target was going to be a length of 1" round bar with a 7/16" UNF nut welded to the end, so I didn't have to swing the hammer under the sill.

But I tried a few hits anyway.  And then when I was properly laying into it, the sound of the blows changed to a duller sound.  Aha.  That's the sound of success.

I'd better drive the bolt most of the way out.  And it'd be a shame not to waste all that access under the car's rear, so I'll disconnect the handbrake cable and the fuel line from the tank.  And I vaguely remember Dad telling me that you have to remove the brass fitting from the front of the tank, otherwise you can't lift the tank out.

Rob


Title: Re: Found Object
Post by: ardiesse on June 08, 2020, 04:59:41 PM
Sod's Law of Immovable Objects:  Any bolt that refuses to budge will become a loose fit when a nut is mooshed tight on the thread.  I tried unscrewing the nut off the spring eye bolt, and the bolt, which only a few minutes before was stuck fast, turned in the spring hanger.  I moved the rail away, and drove the bolt back into place so I could unscrew the nut.  Heating the nut to dull red helped.  And then I could drive the bolt out again with a hammer of ordinary size.

The rear half of the fuel line is out.  The pipe union at the tank outlet is out (thought I was going to shear it off for a while, but it loosened).

The handbrake cable is free from its attachment points, and the gearbox crossmember is out.

And the car is back on its feet.

I plan to take the front springs out while the motor and gearbox are still in the car.  Removing the springs from a front suspension is no fun when there's no car attached.

Rob


Title: Re: Found Object
Post by: Errol62 on June 08, 2020, 09:01:18 PM
You going to re-use those spring eye nuts and bolts Rob?


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Title: Re: Found Object
Post by: ardiesse on June 09, 2020, 10:19:29 AM
Clay,

The only way I can re-use the one from the left is if I weld it up and grind it down.
Damn.  You've tempted me now.

Rob


Title: Re: Found Object
Post by: my8thholden on June 09, 2020, 06:43:00 PM
Rob...Maco TXT me the rubbers he had made , I didn't read about those he has on this forum ,I am weighing up putting them on now as the rear of the car is finished ,not real keen on disturbing the new paint ..and I see Clay has posted details on them ..thanks again fellas ...Vern 


Title: Re: Found Object
Post by: ardiesse on June 09, 2020, 07:43:27 PM
Vern,

If you're missing the channel that the bumper-to-body rubber sits in, it shouldn't be that much effort to fold it up out of thin sheet and then pop-rivet it in place.  It'd be a shame to weld near fresh paint.

Or maybe you could use a narrow retaining strip and send self-tapping screws through the strip and rubber into the body.

Rob


Title: Re: Found Object
Post by: Errol62 on June 09, 2020, 07:56:23 PM
I wouldnít bother if you have the bumper on Vern. Doubt youíll miss them.


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Title: Re: Found Object
Post by: my8thholden on June 10, 2020, 07:39:59 AM
Gents ..Rob the chanel is there on the car intact ,dumb me I just didn't question during rebuild why was it there , more haste less speed Vern ..there is always mud flaps ,they have been on the car previously and we knew that and I have left that option open ,Steve is also reluctant to re visit under the rear bumper ,and Maco said he wouldn't drill or rivett or anything like that ..so its status quo .as Errol 62 says wont miss something you've never had...
Just a bit of trivia ,seeing we are not sitting around and talking , a was talking to the bloke who bought the Hillman Hunter I restored ,he said I bought a Holden ,takes his stable to 9 mixed make cars , its a HZ sedan with 14,000kms ,came from Tech College in Hobart ,used as instruction vehicle for apprentices ..there is even Government shed finds ..stay well Vern


Title: Re: Found Object
Post by: ardiesse on June 13, 2020, 01:18:44 PM
The fuel tank is out.

(https://i.imgur.com/LMb1jd9.jpg)

As usual, no trouble at all.  Seven of the ten screws loosened, three didn't want to let go.  I broke my No.2 Phillips impact driver bit on one, and then elected to use heat instead . . . and the three stubborn screws moved.  Unscrewing the nut from the tank sender terminal was another exercise in patience.

Hydraulic jack under the tank to separate it from the boot floor, and then I could lift it out.  The flange isn't rusty; but I wish I could say the same about the rest of the boot floor.

Rob


Title: Re: Found Object
Post by: ardiesse on June 13, 2020, 05:53:51 PM
Threaded Fasteners Chapter LXXVIII: Tie Rod Ends

(https://i.imgur.com/GWAJTk1.jpg)

The rail has made another appearance.  I have never had as much grief separating a tie rod end as with this one . . . but I will reserve judgement until I've separated the right hand one.

And then I mooshed up the threads on the nut and had to run a 1/2" UNF tap through to restore them.  The tie rod end itself is good, it just needs a dust seal.  You used to be able to buy replacements for the OEM tie rod ends - are they still available?

Oh yeah . . . I took the front spring out and replaced it with my patent Infiniti-Rate version (a 4x2, 6" long).  The front spring has a broken coil, as expected.

Rob


Title: Re: Found Object
Post by: mcl1959 on June 13, 2020, 06:16:51 PM
Rob, you just need a bigger hammer!
By the way, is that a drum retainer clip on the wheel stud?
They are rare things to find.

Ken


Title: Re: Found Object
Post by: ardiesse on June 13, 2020, 07:02:06 PM
Ken,

No, it's not a drum retainer clip - probably an errant cobweb.
Bigger hammer?  It seems I more often need one (1) ACME 500 lb. anvil, although preferably not dropped from a great height.

Rob


Title: Re: Found Object
Post by: Errol62 on June 13, 2020, 07:11:24 PM
The rubber boots are available from time to time Rob but I reckon they are about the same price as a new outer tie rod end with rubber included.

I must have been lucky with tie rod end outer tapers on my ute. Just jacked up and support with a stand under the steering arm. Wind out the castleated nut and bfh. Ping, off she popped, both sides. Youíre going to apply heat you devil.


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Title: Re: Found Object
Post by: ardiesse on June 13, 2020, 07:50:33 PM
Clay,

How you describe separating tapers is my normal experience.  I was thinking of heat, but didn't like the idea of heating suspension components.

Didn't think of putting jack stand under the steering arm though.  Did try dolly supported by hydraulic jack, and got nowhere.

Rob


Title: Re: Found Object
Post by: Errol62 on June 13, 2020, 07:54:44 PM
Isnít there a separator claw tool you can use if you want to be mechanical Rob?


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Title: Re: Found Object
Post by: ardiesse on June 14, 2020, 01:43:24 PM
The Threaded Fasteners Wars Parts CXXIV and CXCI -

The RH tie rod end's taper let go with the help of B.F.H. and the rail.

RH lower outer pivot bolt next.  For some reason, a replacement had been installed from the rear of the control arm, so that the grease nipple (if there had been one) was at the rear rather than the front.  The nut was little better than finger-tight.  Cue false sense of optimism.  The bolt didn't want to move.  Not with a socket ratchet.  Not with me leaning off a torque wrench.  In cases like this, I usually put a jack under the free end of a ring spanner and lift.  Which I did.  I thought the bolt began to move, but it didn't feel right by hand.  Heat around the bolt head and try again.  It seemed easier.  Cue second sense of false optimism.  The bolt head broke off, leaving the pivot bolt still firmly stuck inside the control arm.

Brief pause for labio-dental fricatives.

Options:

(1) Remove king pin from steering knuckle support, move brake assembly and steering knuckle out of the way, and cut through the pivot bolt with angle grinder, taking care not to damage the control arm in the process.  OK.  So I can remove the front spring, but then what?  There's still a section of pivot bolt stuck in the lower control arm.  And who knows what dramas await, particularly the removal of the cotter pin from the steering knuckle support?

(2) Get out with Mister MIG and weld a nut onto the protruding length of pivot bolt at the front.  Encourage the stuck bit of the bolt, which is at the rear, to move with the MAP gas torch and a few hammer blows.

I decided to pursue option 2.  I think I've managed to get the bolt to move a few degrees of rotation, but the weld has just let go.  I ground the weld off and laid a bigger one in.

So far, yet another tactical victory for the threaded fasteners . . .

Rob


Title: Re: Found Object
Post by: ardiesse on June 14, 2020, 06:12:43 PM
The Threaded Fasteners Wars Part CXCIX:

My bigger weld came unstuck also.  I ground it off and put a yet more substantial weld in.  It burned down, fell over and sank into the swamp.  No.  The third one stayed oop.

I wondered if taking the spring tension off the bolt would make it easier to unscrew.  I had a length of threaded rod which I put in where the shock absorber goes, and cranked it up until the suspension came off the rebound stop.  With the load off, I could tell that the upper outer pivot was flogged out.  It had enough free play for me to discover that the lower outer pivot bolt wasn't seized in the control arm (like I thought), but in the steering knuckle support.  So I redirected the heat onto the bush in the support.

The absence of a grease nipple in the pivot bolt was significant after all . . . this was a complete lubrication failure.  The bolt could only turn the angle corresponding to the suspension travel.  Bit by bit I got the range of motion to increase, but it behaved like a thread had picked up inside, which meant a couple of hours of turning the bolt back and forth, alternating between heat and WD-40.  And then -

(https://i.imgur.com/gAH2uWF.jpg)

Sure enough, you can see where the thread picked up, about five turns in from the left hand side.

I pulled the RH front spring out (broken coil also) and ratted my bin of clapped-out suspension parts for a lower outer pivot bolt.  I fitted the patent Infiniti-Rate front spring and sat the car back on its feet.

Let's just see what surprises are in store next.

Rob


Title: Re: Found Object
Post by: Errol62 on June 14, 2020, 10:05:01 PM
Sounds like youíre in front then?!


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Title: Re: Found Object
Post by: ardiesse on June 21, 2020, 12:25:22 PM
Exploded Diagram (II)

(https://i.imgur.com/xuRq72i.jpg)

Motor's out.  Now I have to work out a strategy for dropping the front suspension and unbolting the subframe, before wheeling in the rotisserie at the front.  I'd probably better take the fixed glass out too.

Rob


Title: Re: Found Object
Post by: ardiesse on June 21, 2020, 05:41:49 PM
I took the fixed glass out and unbolted the front guards, had a think and then decided, "next weekend."  The car still rolls, steers and stops.

Rob


Title: Re: Found Object
Post by: ardiesse on June 27, 2020, 05:12:14 PM
The Threaded Fasteners Wars Parts CCVIII and CCIX: Rear Spring U-bolt Nuts and Tailpipe Clamp Bolt.

The rear spring U-bolt nuts let go with MAP gas and swearing on the left hand side; and with wire brush and WD-40 on the right hand side.  The difference is that the right hand side of the underbody is coated with greasy road grime, whereas the left side isn't.  Is it a coincidence that the crankcase breather pipe's on the right hand side?

The tailpipe clamp bolt just turns in the spare wheel well.  So far it has defeated me.

Next:  Boot Hinge Spring Pin Removal.  I can amend RET's instruction sheet as follows -

Removal:

1.  Remove boot lid.  Remove boot mat.  Drain and remove fuel tank.  (It's a lot easier to sit in the boot with your feet on the ground than assume fetal position inside the boot.)  Remove spare wheel clamp assembly.
2.  Lift boot hinge pin retaining tab with screwdriver, remove hinge pin and boot hinge assembly.
3.  Mark and centre-punch the centre of the spring pin.  Drill a pilot hole at least 5/16" deep.  Enlarge pilot hole with a 1/2" drill so that the outside of the 1/2" hole is 1/16" deep.
4.  With a hacksaw, cut through the hinge spring post flush with the support panel.  Dress the rear face flush with a file.
5.  Using a 1/2" diameter round file, enlarge the 1/2" hole just enough to admit the adjustable hinge spring pin.  Or use a 14 mm step drill.

So.  I thought that maybe I'd have the rear axle out, and the back end of the car on the rotisserie.
No.  The rear mounting brackets need rework.  But seeing as how there's a rotten section at the right hand rear corner right above the bumper bracket, I'm thinking about a pipe-and-trammel arrangement to go on the rear spring hangers instead.

Rob


Title: Re: Found Object
Post by: Errol62 on June 27, 2020, 07:27:43 PM
Put some tack welds on the coach head bolt head in the spare wheel well to stop it spinning Rob.
Why the need to mess with the hinge? Are they busted?
On my van I fixed the rotisseriemount with s bolt through the rear spring hanger, as well as the two bumperette iron mounts. They are (almost) in the ssame plane.

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Title: Re: Found Object
Post by: ardiesse on June 27, 2020, 07:53:21 PM
Clay,

Having commercials, you are spared the dubious joys of busted boot hinge spring posts.  I "only" have to replace the passenger's side (the driver's side ain't broke, so I won't fix it . . . )
Bumperette mounts would be a good option for the rotisserie brackets, but it's a sedan . . .

Welding the coach bolt head to the spare wheel well is one option, or some steel strip with a 1/2" hole in it.

The pipe-and-trammel arrangement's taking shape, mentally anyway - I've probably got enough 1" water pipe, and perhaps even two short lengths of 1-1/2" to go over the 1" pipe.

Rob


Title: Re: Found Object
Post by: Errol62 on June 27, 2020, 09:17:53 PM
The bumperette mounts are the same as sedan bumper iron mount holes Rob.


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Title: Re: Found Object
Post by: ardiesse on June 28, 2020, 08:15:27 PM
It's dark outside, and it's raining lightly.  But my backyard metal fabrication project has yielded results:

(https://i.imgur.com/yDHpY4x.jpg)

The distance between the spring hangers is 947 mm, about 945 between the rubbers.  I cut off a 940 length of 1" water pipe.  I had some M12 nuts, of the style that looks a bit like a lampshade, or a nut with integral washer.  The cone bit of the nut sat very nicely on the end of the pipe.  I bevelled the pipe ends and welded the nuts in place.  Then I cut off two 100 mm lengths of 1-1/2" pipe, drilled the pipe and welded two M10 nuts onto each.  Then I got two 1" x 3/16" steel strips, curled one end up a quarter turn, and drilled a 31/64" hole in the other end to take an M12 bolt.  I welded the strips onto the 100 mm pipe sections, slid the 1-1/2" pipe sections onto the 1" pipe, and put the 1" pipe between the spring hangers.  Two M12 x 80 bolts with flat washers went through the spring shackle rubbers and into the nuts at the ends of the pipe.  Then it was a case of sliding the "tongues" of the rotisserie onto the T-bar and picking up the mounting holes on the 1-1/2" pipe.  It came together quite well.

This photo shows the arrangement in more detail, and even the rotten section next to and behind the bumper bracket.  The rotten section is why I decided to go with the pipe-and-trammel setup:  I can move the attachments laterally on the cross-pipe so they don't get in the way when I'm repairing rust in the car's rear.  Brackets attached where the bumper bracket bolt-holes don't allow me to do that.

(https://i.imgur.com/b4hwrlj.jpg)

And this is what the trammel looks like from the front, with the M10 clamping bolts.

(https://i.imgur.com/Czo0EUQ.jpg)

And then I unbolted the rotisserie from the trammels, moved it out of the way, and rolled the car back into its resting place in the car port.  Another weekend gone . . .

Rob


Title: Re: Found Object
Post by: mcl1959 on June 28, 2020, 08:55:47 PM
Ingenious Rob, a weekend well spent

Ken


Title: Re: Found Object
Post by: camxsmith on June 29, 2020, 09:22:57 AM
Great idea


Title: Re: Found Object
Post by: my8thholden on June 29, 2020, 08:34:04 PM
Rob.straight forward , inexpensive ,effective ,way to go !!!well done Vern ..


Title: Re: Found Object
Post by: ardiesse on July 04, 2020, 05:34:18 PM
Another day's work, and this is all I have to show for it.

(https://i.imgur.com/4Adobrb.jpg)

Guide wire inside the transverse roof member, guide wire inside the RH A-pillar.  Body wiring harness removed, and just like before, I'll have to replace the fried dome lamp wire.  The main wiring harness made cracking sounds as I fed it back into the cabin - hopefully "just" the harness tape, rather than the PVC insulation cracking.

A temporary cease-fire in the Threaded Fasteners Wars: the front door hinge screws loosened without much effort.

Front seat's out.  Doors are off.

Rob


Title: Re: Found Object
Post by: camxsmith on July 05, 2020, 01:29:27 PM
Mate any work on the car is time well spent and worth doing ..  Keep up the great work  ;D


Title: Re: Found Object
Post by: ardiesse on July 05, 2020, 07:38:41 PM
Rear Axle Removal:

Using an ACME skyhook, suspend rear of car.  With two hydraulic jacks, raise rear axle enough to enable removal of rear wheels and admit a furniture dolly.

(https://i.imgur.com/beIeA5d.jpg)

Lower the rear of car and the rear axle bit by bit to sit the rear axle on the furniture dolly.  Drive out the rear spring front eye bolts.

(https://i.imgur.com/rjb4LXJ.jpg)

Roll the rear axle assembly out from the rear.

(https://i.imgur.com/s9BC4ti.jpg)

Remove U-bolt nuts, shock absorber plates, U-bolts and rear springs.  Label rear springs for side and lay over the top of the rear axle.  Wheel the rear axle out of the way.  Bolt up the rotisserie (rear section).







Title: Re: Found Object
Post by: ardiesse on July 05, 2020, 07:40:37 PM
Oops.  Too quick on the trigger finger.

Rotisserie attached at the rear.

(https://i.imgur.com/Yrnsjg4.jpg)

Rob


Title: Re: Found Object
Post by: ardiesse on July 05, 2020, 07:59:39 PM
Now I can turn my attention to the front.

Disconnect the front brake hoses, unbolt the idler arm support, remove Pitman arm from steering box.  Undo the front crossmember bolts.  Jack the car up by the front subframe.  Put a couple of jack stands under the (very dodgy) no. 1 body crossmember.

(https://i.imgur.com/tQhHU74.jpg)

Knock the "Infiniti-Rate" front springs out with a b.f.h.  Remove the hydraulic jack.  Wheel the front suspension out complete.  Replace the front crossmember bolts and spacer tubes in their original locations.

(https://i.imgur.com/Z6yfVXn.jpg)

Fiddly work on the inside.  I hadn't removed the top steering column cover on the firewall.  I only noticed that when I tried to remove the column.  Minor delay, then - steering column removed.

Pedals next.  Brake pipe distribution block and brake master cylinder next, being slow and careful so as not to butcher the brake pipe nuts.  You have to remove the master cylinder pushrods to get the pedal set out.  But the firewall insulation has to come out more or less at the same time as the pedal set.  Swing the pedal set downwards at the front, then depress the clutch pedal all the way to get the overcentre spring out of the way of the firewall insulation.  And then there's just enough room for the pedal set to clear the dash brace.

(https://i.imgur.com/IXhln2I.jpg)

Rob





Title: Re: Found Object
Post by: ekute on July 05, 2020, 08:07:45 PM
Great write up Rob, too much work for me!


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Title: Re: Found Object
Post by: ardiesse on July 05, 2020, 08:26:52 PM
Which just leaves the front subframe.  The four bolts underneath came out with "encouragement" from a hammer and drift.  Getting a spanner onto the bolt head and turning the bolts during removal aids the process.  The self-tappers on the subframe skirts let go, except for one, which took persuasion with the MAP gas torch.  Then the six upper bolts, and then some deft levering with the Auld Persuader to break the subframe free top and bottom.

(https://i.imgur.com/6Yl2AXg.jpg)

Note toolbox acting as ballast.

I "walked" the subframe away on its legs, and then brought the front section of the rotisserie near.  This was another of those things where it looked OK from a distance, but the closer I got, the more it didn't want to go.  By dumb luck, the attaching brackets were at nearly the same height as the rotisserie's axis, which meant that I couldn't bolt the rotisserie up directly.

Then in mating the two halves of the rotisserie (tie members underneath) things appeared badly out of whack at the rear.  The vertical member had taken on a distinct inwards lean.  The "leg" of the T with the third castor is only attached with two bolts.  When you put the load of a body shell on the rotisserie, all the bending moment is taken by these two poor bolts.  I co-opted a hydraulic jack to sit on the "T" member and jacked up the pipe (between the spring hangers) to get the load off these bolts.  Then I found that if I put one of the pins in the main vertical member and jacked up the hydraulic ram, the sagging went away.  So this design of rotisserie requires load to be taken by the hydraulic ram always, otherwise it sags.  Major design flaw . . .

It was a similar deal at the front.  I jacked up the hydraulic ram, which allowed me to attach to the mounting brackets, then put the stay pin in at a convenient hole, and then jacked the ram up more to stop the sag.

(https://i.imgur.com/H5YTHZU.jpg)

As you can tell, it was now dark; and I was running out of energy and patience.  But the whole show held together well enough to wheel the shell back into the carport and take the load off the rotisserie with jack stands.

I need to re-design the front attaching brackets so the pick-up point is about a foot lower than at present.  Then I'll be able to get the roll axes front and rear to the same height.  And to stop the sag I need to put in a pair of stay members between the vertical and the leg of the "T" (front and rear), dimensioned to clear both the hydraulic ram and the rotating part of the framework.

Which will mean unbolting the rotisserie from the body.  After all the time it took to bolt it up.

Rob


Title: Re: Found Object
Post by: Errol62 on July 05, 2020, 10:58:10 PM
Outstanding progress. Here is a photo to contemplate.(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20200705/d69ebdb0da7a0481b8fe58b1f2dc1ba5.jpg)
On my EK van I have height adjustable axis. The centre is set 25mm below bottom bonnet hinge bolt hole, bearing in mind the van has a raised roof so bit higher centre of gravity.
Just welded nuts to square tube and bolts for clamping, but youíve seen my set up.


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Title: Re: Found Object
Post by: Errol62 on July 05, 2020, 11:47:27 PM
I can reverse the mounts and get the axis lower if required.


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Title: Re: Found Object
Post by: ardiesse on July 06, 2020, 10:52:26 AM
Clay,

Yours is a simpler rotisserie setup, and better because it's simpler.  I'm losing my EK-memory, so tell me - where the bonnet hinges attach to the firewall, do the bolts point fore and aft?  That'd make for a simpler mounting bracket.

On the subject, I just took a look at the Canberra FX-FJ club magazine for July.  Featured was an FJ van under restoration on a rotisserie.  The rotisserie was of the same general design as mine, and a piece of 25x25 square tube had been welded between the upright and the leg of the "T" to brace it.

Rob


Title: Re: Found Object
Post by: Errol62 on July 06, 2020, 02:21:33 PM
Aye-aye skipper, fore and aft. I actually welded two lengths of two inch galv water pipe either side, between the front and rear stands, as well as diagonal bracing.


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Title: Re: Found Object
Post by: fcwrangler on July 07, 2020, 06:57:24 PM
Iím with Clay, the simple designs work best. I used two supercheap engine stands mounted with cut down bonnet hinges and adapted fear bar irons and 50x50 tie beams for support. I have seen the type of  rotisserie you have and the guys using them werenít impressed.


Title: Re: Found Object
Post by: ardiesse on July 12, 2020, 11:45:27 AM
How To Make a Dugout Canoe, Step 1: First select a stout tree.

The parallels between this folk-wisdom parable and restoring Holdens are obvious.

I've bought a Holden.  It needs a complete strip-down and rebuild.  It would be convenient if I could turn the body shell over to perform structural repairs.  I'll get a rotisserie.  Rotisserie needs extra bracing for rigidity.  Design the braces, so that the rotating parts don't foul on the stationary parts, and so that the braces clear the hydraulic ram.  Make the braces and mounting brackets.  Discover that the members are 50x70, but are oriented differently.  Dig up some 25x10 steel flat bar and cut to size in order to space 50 mm out to 70 mm.  Line the parts up, mark up locations, remove paint, fire up Mister MIG.

(https://i.imgur.com/jXPb350.jpg)

That's one done.  As an aside, every workplace needs a sheet-metal shop.

Rob


Title: Re: Found Object
Post by: Errol62 on July 12, 2020, 01:07:04 PM
Hard to believe they didnít build any diagonal bracing in to such a fancy set up. Iíd still like to see the two stands joined at the base, so they canít move independently.

Starting point for shell centre of gravity for a sedan is the level of the fuel filler hole. Seems low but then the bottom of the shell is where all the boxing is, using 18# sheet a lot of it.

Will be an absolute joy to work on once you get it sorted.


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Title: Re: Found Object
Post by: ardiesse on July 12, 2020, 04:16:19 PM
Yeah.  It's a curious mix of the dodgy and the precision-engineered.  The inner pipe for the horizontal axis has machining marks where it's been turned to size, and the pipe it turns in has been sleeved with nylon (perhaps).  But yet the engineer who designed the whole show decided not to provide the bracing which I've just put in.  And the moving vertical member runs on rollers; but the rotating T part has 4 mm clearance in the cross-head.  (Which I'm going to take up with greased pieces of 2 mm sheet.)

Here is the second rotisserie braced.  Minor oops:  I only made up four brackets instead of eight, so I went to Bunnings and got a couple of 340 x 40 x 3.5 "mending plates" (zinc-plated, even), drilled them and cut them to size.

(https://i.imgur.com/BbW8v0C.jpg)

The rotisserie's not complete, because I need to disassemble it to get it past the body shell in the carport, where I can reassemble it.

After reassembly, I am happy to report that it lifts the rear of the shell easily, with no sagging.  Yay!

Rob


Title: Re: Found Object
Post by: Errol62 on July 12, 2020, 10:41:41 PM
👍👍


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Title: Re: Found Object
Post by: ardiesse on July 18, 2020, 04:14:52 PM
Today's pleasant task: cleaning the subframe.

(https://i.imgur.com/JltbozJ.jpg)

Once all the grease and dirt is removed, I get a much better idea of what lies beneath.  The right-hand outer leg, for example:

(https://i.imgur.com/b65ZZvk.jpg)

This is your classic farm-grade repair.  The RH inner leg looks almost sound - maybe one or two pinholes.

The LH inner leg:

(https://i.imgur.com/0Vyu9Z8.jpg)

This repair even has a few lengths of MIG wire sticking out near the engine mount bracket.

And the LH outer leg:

(https://i.imgur.com/Q1qi9lR.jpg)

Even though it's got gaping holes, I feel I can work with this one more easily - it hasn't had a previous repair.

Now the tie member and LH "dumb iron":

(https://i.imgur.com/CzeXbys.jpg)

This is about what you'd expect, really.  And note bonus holes in the front of the skirt.

This is where the three right hand legs come together near the steering box:

(https://i.imgur.com/81msm8k.jpg)

And similarly, on the passenger's side:

(https://i.imgur.com/0Mop5Fc.jpg)

There's a couple of months of weekends ahead of me, just on the front subframe.  I started to take the engine mount bracket off on the driver's side, and as I was undoing the second bolt, the subframe made creaking sounds, and a gap opened up between the inner leg and engine mount bracket.  The repair to the RH outer leg has distorted it, so the engine mount bracket bolts went back in.  I was hoping to make a jig for the subframe legs; but the best jig will be the body, even if the no.1 body crossmember is rotten.

The question of whether the inner and outer leg bolt holes are collinear still remains.  It's probably best to determine that from the body, instead.

Rob


Title: Re: Found Object
Post by: Errol62 on July 18, 2020, 08:51:15 PM
Yes and yes. Bull dust and moisture have rotted many an inner subframe skirt. It wasnít just farmers either. Farmers used oxy mostly. My mates HT wagon had 1/2Ē plating arc stitched around the rusted near side lower legs. This in 1980 when the car was ten years old!!


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Title: Re: Found Object
Post by: ardiesse on July 19, 2020, 07:57:00 PM
If, then, I'm going to use the body as the alignment jig for the subframe legs, I need to be able to attach and remove the subframe, preferably without removing the rotisserie at the front.  This rather constrains which attachment points I use, and the bonnet hinge bolt holes became the preferred choice.

Down to Bunnings for some 40x40x3 galvanised right-angle section.  Cut, bend, mark up, drill, file holes, bolt to body; measure, cut, mark up, cut, bend, drill, saw, relieve, weld; line up, mark, grind off zinc, line up again, tack weld, remove from body, go nuts with the welder, reinstall on body.

(https://i.imgur.com/B8dvOOB.jpg)

(Crappy focus, unfortunately)  It's not complete yet.  I have yet to put the tabs in to bolt it up to the rotisserie's rotating T-piece.  The rotisserie will be as close as I can get it to the firewall, so that (fingers crossed) I can tip the shell upside down and put the subframe on around the rotisserie.  And maybe 135 degrees will work too.

Rob


Title: Re: Found Object
Post by: Errol62 on July 19, 2020, 08:15:53 PM
Good one, yes its essential. I used the subframe as a jig when I replaced my floor with Hydramatic floor cut. I hadnít anticipated this but happily only a bit of clearancing was required to fit the subframe. I did so with the car upside down and a ratchet strap from the rear body to the radiator support and a fistful of Phillips head screw drivers.


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Title: Re: Found Object
Post by: my8thholden on July 20, 2020, 08:18:29 AM
Gees Rob ,you will have to go back to work to get a break ..


Title: Re: Found Object
Post by: Longman on July 20, 2020, 08:38:26 AM
Same. I used subframe as a jig when replacing my entire floor pan, then used the floor as a jig when replacing the subframe legs. Now it all slots together with little effort.


Good one, yes its essential. I used the subframe as a jig when I replaced my floor with Hydramatic floor cut. I hadnít anticipated this but happily only a bit of clearancing was required to fit the subframe. I did so with the car upside down and a ratchet strap from the rear body to the radiator support and a fistful of Phillips head screw drivers.


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Title: Re: Found Object
Post by: ardiesse on July 25, 2020, 06:18:38 PM
Another day wasted productively spent with the drill press, angle grinder and Mister MIG.  The lifting frame from last weekend needed to have a couple more brackets attached.  Inspiration came from Brett027's "Wilma" thread over at FB/EK.  And it helps to have a sheet-metal shop at work, where I can get offcuts of square and rectangular steel tube.

Cut two 150 mm lengths of 50x75 tube to slip over the cross-arm of the "T", drill and weld on M10 nuts.  Cut two 80 mm lengths of 25 square, with a quadrant cut out at the end, to take ~35 mm lengths of 1" water pipe.  Weld pipe to 25 square, then weld the 25 square to the 50x75 tube.  Cut 4 off, 40 mm lengths of 40x40x3 right angle, and drill clearance holes for M10 bolts.  Weld two of the brackets to the lifting frame, and drill two M10 clearance holes in the lifting frame for the remaining two brackets.  Lube three old sway bar rubbers with "You know you're soaking in it" and insert into the water pipe.  Slip the 50x75 tubes onto the "T" of the rotisserie, jack the body up to the right height, thread an M10 x 50 bolt through the right-angle, the sway bar rubbers and the other bracket.  Tighten the nut on the through bolt until the bolt holes on the other bracket and lifting frame line up.  Insert and tighten M10 bolt and nut.  Repeat for the other side.  Centre the rotisserie, and lift.

(https://i.imgur.com/nD88Wl3.jpg)

And it all just worked.  No flexing of the firewall.  No sagging of the rotisserie.  Quite an anticlimax.  As it is supposed to be.

I might be able to turn my attention to the subframe soon.

Rob


Title: Re: Found Object
Post by: Errol62 on July 25, 2020, 08:19:12 PM
👍👍

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Title: Re: Found Object
Post by: 59wagon on July 25, 2020, 09:59:08 PM
Great outcome Rob.  I too find that I spend just as much time, (actually, a lot more time), making tools & stuff to do the job than doing the job itself.  Still satisfying though.
Enjoying your descriptions.

Madge's "You know you're soaking in it" brought back a memory and smile :)


(https://tse1.mm.bing.net/th/id/OIP.g1Y74Hf9Uvp_q7eJ4gGojAHaHG?w=180&h=180&c=7&o=5&pid=1.7)

Cheers,

John


Title: Re: Found Object
Post by: ardiesse on July 26, 2020, 11:38:50 AM
John: You got the pop-culture reference.  Bonus.

The rotisseries needed some more tweaking.  Because the "T" has about 4 mm clearance in the cross-head, I decided to insert some spacers (2 mm galvanised sheet) to take the slop away.  Which led to some work with a file on the inside of the tube in the cross-head so the "T" ran freely with the spacers in place.  And then I found that the jack-screw-crank didn't point at the hole in the "T" like it was supposed to, but was about 1/4" off.  More work with a round file to move the hole.  And the thrust bearing was on the wrong side of the "T" to take the load, so I moved it to the other side.  The vertical strut that the cross-head rotates in has a roller down at the bottom end, badly in need of lubrication.  But lubrication didn't help it to turn.  Turns out that the roller was fouling on the inside of the strut.  I pulled the roller out and aimed a few good blows with the ball of a ball-pein hammer onto the marks where the roller was rubbing.

And now the jack-screw-crank doesn't bind when I wind it up; and the hydraulic ram lowers all by itself rather than needing a good push downwards.

So, you're right.  One spends a lot of time on the "infrastructure".

Rob


Title: Re: Found Object
Post by: ardiesse on July 26, 2020, 12:51:11 PM
. . . since it's raining, I might as well hose the crud out of the subframe legs.

I think the car has spent quite some time in the country, judging by the quantity and colour of the dirt which came out of the inner legs, particularly.  They were blocked up solid.

Rob


Title: Re: Found Object
Post by: Errol62 on July 26, 2020, 10:33:20 PM
Youíll have a top notch rotisserie by the time this resto is complete rob 😆😆


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Title: Re: Found Object
Post by: ardiesse on August 02, 2020, 04:30:24 PM
I started repairs on the subframe this weekend.  The left front corner seemed like a good starting point, with a rotten section in the radiator support, and another rotten bit in the skirt.  But internal corners present their own challenges - like, for example, how to get an angle grinder in there to make the cuts.  I made a lot of use of a hacksaw blade and a file.  This is the repair to the radiator support:

(https://i.imgur.com/Z2rZBTc.jpg)

And this is the repair to the front lower corner of the skirt, largely hidden under the battery tray.

(https://i.imgur.com/EUvVp1i.jpg)

Next weekend's effort will be to replace the left hand "dumb-iron" with the Rare Spares section.  I'll do some exploratory surgery on the front tie member.  From the outside it appears as if the cancer is in the leftmost four inches or so.  That'll be in the "famous last words" category.  Let's just see . . .

Rob


Title: Re: Found Object
Post by: ardiesse on August 08, 2020, 04:55:00 PM
It didn't bucket down with rain today as forecast, so I took advantage of the almost-clear weather to drill and grind some spot welds.  I discovered one positive about using a hacksaw (yes, slow, laborious) instead of an angle grinder to make the cuts: you can tell pretty quickly when the thing you're cutting sags.  This happened when I was making the cut on the inside corner of the LH "dumb-iron" and the tie member.  I had put planks across the skirts, mainly so I could sit the subframe upside-down on a tabletop.  To stop the sag I needed to brace the subframe: a couple of spacers between the planks and tabletop, then four G-clamps to hold everything in place.  That worked until I made the cut across the "dumb-iron".  When I cut through the return on the inside, there was a "ping", and the upper and lower halves of the member separated by a half-millimetre or so.  OK.  With the torsional rigidity gone, the left and right sides of the subframe went all knock-kneed.  A pair of jack-stands where the crossmember bolts on stopped the inward roll.

One always misses the last couple of spot welds, but when they were drilled through -

(https://i.imgur.com/3t2GGhk.jpg)

The usual amount of leaves, mud, rust scale and crud.  But the main box member (rearward of the cut) is in better shape than I'd feared.

Rob


Title: Re: Found Object
Post by: Errol62 on August 08, 2020, 07:53:02 PM
Fun fun.

Torsional rigidity and early Holden hmm...  At least youíre not doing an hq where the windscreen is a stressed member.

Is the crush section intact there where the subframe bolts run through Rob?


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Title: Re: Found Object
Post by: ardiesse on August 08, 2020, 08:42:17 PM
Yeah.  The section behind the cut isn't rusty.  It's grimy, and I brushed the loose stuff out with my fingers, enough to see that the crush tubes are intact.

But now that I've trussed the subframe to the table, I have to work out some clever method of getting the rust and dirt out of the box sections.  Probably something like the little hoe that a roulette croupier uses.  That and compressed air.

Rob


Title: Re: Found Object
Post by: Errol62 on August 08, 2020, 11:29:52 PM
On the ute I fired the pressure washer in there adnauseum, as well as a hooked fence wire piece, and my custom hose pipe vacuum nozzle, oh and compressed air. Followed up with fisholene delivered via schutz gun, tube and 360 nozzle.


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Title: Re: Found Object
Post by: my8thholden on August 09, 2020, 07:31:36 AM
we also marveled how one frame member could be rusted in one area and yet sound a little further along , just the way the ingredients of rust would be trapped and do the oxidation work over time ..Vern


Title: Re: Found Object
Post by: ardiesse on August 09, 2020, 03:55:43 PM
I raked all the dirt and scale out of the dumb irons and tie member.  Somewhat surprisingly, the tie member will only need the leftmost four inches replaced.  And the good thing about a "clear-vision" port at the triple junction where the idler arm bolts on is that I could see clear though, and it's all clean and rust-free inside.  I trimmed the Rare Spares dumb-iron to length (measuring from the sway-bar-bracket slot), and the rain drove me inside.

Rob


Title: Re: Found Object
Post by: Errol62 on August 09, 2020, 06:40:39 PM
Merciful god 👍


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Title: Re: Found Object
Post by: my8thholden on August 10, 2020, 06:41:18 AM
well our car is tucked away in the garage , I took opportunity to put 150kg of Pasture Booster out and pull up fireweed ..