FE-FC Holden Discussion Forum

Hello,

After much stuffing about I have concluded my rear main seal is leaking.

Also have decided now is a great time to pull the motor out to fix the problem, as it is annoying me.

still have a few weeks before the nats so I am confident of having it back together and ready for a test run up the highway  to Evans HEad on the 7th April.

anyway a few questions.

can anybody provide hints for changing 308 rear main rope seal.. I have never donw this before.

also could I change the rope to a neoprene seal?

I reckon because the engine sat idle for a couple of years the seal dried out or something.

any advice appreciated.

Cheers

Ed

ED,
You need to strip the crank out to replace a rope seal ,and it needs to be trimmed and molded into shape to fit the cap and the crank properly.Not too hard just a long process..

You can buy a neoprene replacement seal from FEL PRO (I think)now that will replace a rope seal without machine work to the block and main cap.

Cheers

AL

Hi Al,

thanks for the info, I just got off the phone to American Autos and they have the rope to neoprene adaptor, apparently the neoprene seals last better I was told.

I am now relegated to the fact one more engine removal is on the cards.

it's a bugger of a job but I have been through it a few times, so I will grit my teeth and get on with it.

I was planning to hold this job off until the bottome end needed attention, but here goes!..

i will start tonight and use Harko's 20 minute rule.

Cheers

Ed

it amazing how efficienyt the "harko" rule is i have been applying it to polishing my inlet manifold and
1/ it is amazing how much can be done in 20 minutes
2/ its equally amazing how 20 minutes turns in an hour or two once you get started.

good luck ed and thanks harko ;D

cheers
dean

Hi Ed,    The rope seal when put in properly is a better seal it's softer on the crank. Anyway don't forget to use heaps of grease on the new seal. If you need a hand with anything give us a ring OK.           Cheers Al

Hi Ed,
The rope seal can be replaced without dropping the crank but you'll need a special installer tool called a "Sneaky Pete" It's made by an American company but I can't quite remember their name. You should be able to get it from places like American Autos or special tool suppliers. It's basically a screw on the end of a steel string with a T handle.
You loosen all the main bearings, drop off the rear cap and push/pull out the old seal. The "Sneaky Pete" gets threaded through the seal groove, screwed into the end of the rope seal and with a bit of lubrication and some occasional swearing, you draw it back through until the seal's located evenly. Fit the other half of the seal to the cap and wolla. You need to leave the seal sitting proud so it'll pack in when you do up the cap.
good luck,
Leigh
cheers,
Leigh

Hi Leigh,

thanks for the tip.

I went and ordered a rope to neoprene conversion seal for the car yesterday evening.. it should be posted today however after reading this I am having second thoughts.

I must find one fo these sneaky PEtes, then I will use a rope seal instead

On another aside...
the motor has also developed a prob. with very loud POPS especially under load.. my feeling it is a blown headgasket between cylinders 6&8.
at first it sounded like  noisy lifter then it just went crazy.. I had to nurse it home about 10 kms.

just because that wasnt enough...
brake fluid decided to take off some nice paint in the engine bay ina totally unrelated incident!
it may be best to remove motor, touch up engine bay, fix rear main and hgead gasket (on stand), then get motoring for Phillip Island.


is it a conspiracy??

Cheers

Ed

Yes it is a conspiracy! Have some motor and brake fluid issues myself.
It's all the FCers trying to stop the better looking model from attending the Nats  :P

Glad I'm not alone!

fingers crossed for a smooth weekend, I have cleared the garage, setting up my crane and stand, rolled up the carpet and placed a do not disturb sign on the door.

which adhesive do i use between the main caps and block surfaces?


Cheers

Ed

These 'sneaky petes" are used by fitters,etc to replace seal packing in large water pumps. You could try mechanical engeneering wholesalers. They should sell them.
Colin

hi Col,

I found where to get a Sneaky Petes.. Coventrys.

I decided after seeking advice the only way to do it right is to take the motor out.

.. one more time won't hurt.

Cheers

Ed

just a monday update...

ended up pulling the motor out which was a big job.. everything has to come out to allow the motor to be lifted out. FUN.

replaced the rear main with a neoprene seal which was moulded into the shape of the groove and obviously has a lip.  this couldbe done easily with the crank still in place but loosened off.

the rope seal had rotated about 90 degrees and was brittle. little wonder it held any oil at all!  this i can only assume was a result of the motor sittingon my stand for about 3 or 4 years.


the head gasket issue turned out to be much less... a pushrod had rammed its way thru a rocker...  easy fix, hope the rod isnt bent too.

things are looking better, and am feeling very close to the Nats.i
Cheers

Ed

Hey Ed.
Good to hear you had some of that hard to find GOOD luck. Looking forward to seeing her on the road.
Have you worked out when you are leaving for the Nats?
Regards
Alex

Yeah good stuff ED ,its headache of a job but somehow I bet you felt good doing it huh !
OK I think you've filled your 20 minute quota and are now eating into others :)

Hey Alex,

I am leaving for the Nats on thursday, which reminds me i will need to contact Ben et al.

things are looking up now, I will not be defeated by the project. slowly slowly things work themselves out.

Harko,
I have changed your rule to the 4 hour rule.
;)

journal entry 28th March.

After scurrying home from work, I quickly scuffed one side of the engine bay down with 600 W&D making sure all the brake fluid ffected areas were thoroughly sanded and prepsol'd.

I then soft edge masked the area to be painted also following the contours of the panel to hide the edge.

Paint application was easy, I used a 2K mix I had made up specifically for the engine block and bay.  I reckon it's easier to shoot on a couple of coats rather than use a COB system here.

the result exceeded my expectations... after removing any overspray with clay you cannot tell where the touch up is.

Voila! engine bay fixed.

also pretty stoked as it is the first time ever I have been allowed to spraypaint in the garage!


While the motor was out, I also decided it was an opportune time to replace the front pump seal on the TH400.  no probs dig the old one out, carefully drift the new one in.. oops slipped.  dented the seal ring.  re-do the job.  this time did it right.  lucky a new seal was less than $5.  Liberal amounts of assembly lube was smeared over the seal lip.

;D

Also it presents a great opportunity to tidy up the wires.. excellent!!

stay tuned for more Nats preparations...  tonights job.

re-installing the motor single handedly.

Cheers

Ed

29 March 06.

After much struggling, the motor and box was re-installed.

Trying to wrestle a TH400 into place with the car about 30cm off the floor is not much fun... I'm almost certain a TH400 weighs about my body weight compounded by the fact one of my shoulders has a tendency for dislocation at the most in-opportune moments.  

Huge amounts of physical strength and ergonomic working conditions would make this job a cinch however, possessing neither I used a little bit of thought to get through it.  

The block and gearbox housing must be perfectly aligned in order to get the box to slip into place. careful placement of jacks and lifts allowed me to eventually get it.

Anyway luck was on my side and the mtor and box are now in...

only took 3 hours.. now the ancillaries.

got a phone call today to confirm the car for a wedding on the 8th April!

Cheers

Ed

Does anybody know if the electric kick down switch on teh TH400 box just slides or pries out?  I'm wanting to change the O-ring.


TIP: removal of selector shaft seal.

Using a nail, carefully punch the side of the seal.
screw a long self tapper (1 turn is enough) into the small hole.
pull on the screw and the seal comes out.
be careful not to scratch any surfaces.

Cheers

Ed

After a week of some pretty long hours,

I am very pleased to report the fitting of a new rear main seal has cured the oil leak in the motor.  

Although a rope seal is the preferred seal, I used a neoprene seal for ease of installation.  I have since learned how rope seals can be "packed up" to eliminate leaks with the crank still in place.

now the fun begins...

Tomorrow the car is off to have the ECU chip re-mapped to suit the new cam, head, mainfold and throttle body. hopefully the dyno will show some respectable figures.

my PI campaign is back on track.

Cheers

Ed

The latest in the update of getting my motor sorted and running properly..


the car is getting re-mapped at Sams Performance and Sam has a pretty good reputation for 308's and LS1's.

the wagon has been there since Tuesday, so I thought I'd clal and check up on things..

I ring up and he says " who's been working on your car?"  ermm .. me?

"well don't f*kn touch it ever again".. umm ok that bad huh?

rattles off list of things including

the motor was running the V6 chip (don't i feel dumb - little wonder it ran at all..thankyou Commodore Wrecker who shall remain anonymous who also sold me an airconditioing pressure switch mistakenly as a knock sensor)..
wrong plugs (carby type - not EFI type - last time i trust somebody choose plugs without my prior research.. i wonder about the guys in the auto parts stores)

fuel pressure was low ( i know this because i turned it down due to over fuelling)

to top it off the exhaust gaskets were leaking.. ( i knew this because I couldnt find a replacement one before it ook it down).

...boy.. don't i feel like a chump :-)

Sam asked " what do you say to that?"

i reply " i'm glad you'r e on the job!!"

"laughs"..

hoping to have the car back today,, I'm going for a 1600km test drive.
:-)

Cheers

Ed

Ok got the wagon back  ;D

after a tune it runs very smoothly, and uses alot less fuel and I have greater piece of mind.

Sam really knows his stuff.

power figures (unfort I cant relate them to engine speed) are.

172.5 RWHP (128.63kW)
411.7 FtLb torque.

all measured at the wheels.
doesnt sound a whole heap but it feels OK, certainly alot better than pre-tune.

tuning the Throttle body correctly with IAC, has caused a prob with the PCV tho, and is causing oil to blow out the dipstick at WOT>

the remedy I guess would be to use a catch can that breathes to atmosphere rather than one which returns through the TB under engine vac.  The loss in Vac through the catch can has caused this issue.

no real problem..   if anybody knows where to get a catch can of this type, if they could let me know would be appreciated.  I dont think Americans had any last time I was there, but that will be my first port of call.

Cheers

Ed

try rocket indusrties or parramatta performance (high performance world )for your catch can
cheers fat

Good on you, Ed. 172 hp at the wheels sounds a whole lot better than 50 or 60.
Colin

Ed
     172.5 rwhp allow about 25% loss through the drive line should give you about 230 horses at the flywheel
thats not bad in anyones language.  
The figure I am amazed with is the 411.7 ftlb of torque thats huge. Thats got to put a smile on your dial.

Cheers
Glenn

Ed,

Glenn's spot on. My trusty drag racing calculator gives an estimated ET of 14.08 seconds (weight guessed at 2800 lb's)  add a little extra time for traction issues etc and you've built yourself a high 14 second car. Pretty reasonable for an FE wagon.

At least fair competition for Leon's tar tearing blown 6 cyl ;-)

Cheers,

Craig.

hey thanks for that guys..

unfortunately my Nats preps have been dealt a SERIOUS blow.

did a run to Evans HEad on the weekend and..

the rear main spat after I forgot to relieve the build up of pressure in the block.

i ended up dumping the gases out of the rocker breather thru two hoses to the ground.

i've narrowed down the offender as No 1 cylinder after reading the plugs  after about 2000kms.

i'm hoping to fix the seal with engine in this time. (this is why i used a neoprene seal, however I doubt a rope seal would of given out).

the excessive blow by on No 1 has me worried, I'm even debating trying to re-ring it in 3 days..

bloody thing... I knew when I had the motor out last time I should of spent a day or so more to do the lot.

Ed.

172.5/6 = 28.75 RWHP/cyl

172.5 - 28.75 = 143.75 RWHP (5 Cyl's)

Geez Ed, what's your problem? Your still have more than triple the power of those old grey smokers!!!

:o :o :o :o

Hope you make it regardless Ed.

Cheers,

Craig.

Better pull your finger out Ed!
There are a lot of people who want to see your car at the Nats and maybe even have a chat with you  ;D

work has commenced..;D

I mean it only used 8L of oil to Evans and back... 1L per 100kms.
in addition it has rust proofed the underbody... lol

i will be burning the candle at both ends to pull this off.

the parts have been ordered to fix the seal.

the piston willbe popped out later tonite and i will see what size it is.. there should be a stamp right?

this leaves me about a night to get it back together.. no sweat...

Cheers

Ed

i meant 1L/200kms...

... managed to tear most of the motor apart..

unfor the piston ring issue will need to wait until after the Nats.  Will drive it gently down to PI to avoid too many issues.

rear main seal had turned 90 degrees again!  >:(

this makes about 2 rear mains doing that in as many weeks.

I had put permatex on the lower half of the seal this time to stop it from turning.. looks like it didnt work.

anybody have any ideas how to stop a round seal turning??
perhaps not making the seal exactly flush with the block and cap??
silastic as glue in the lower half seal??
I read some blokes pin the rope seal using a 5/16" pin.. will do this on the re-build after Nats.


ANY ideas very welcome.

Cheers

Ed

So Ed, what was the final oil consumption tally for the trip?  :P

Heya stinky,

I've only just logged on here since the Nats,  been away on business last week etc..

Car used about 10Litres!!  was gushing like the Exxon Valdeez, but hey, it was cool I made it there.

even lost the oil cap and the windscreen wiper on route to PI.
;D

I am pulling the motor out again this week and fixing it properly, and putting through a new set of rings hoping this will get about 18months to 2 years of crusing kms.  then I am sourcing a brand new 5.7Litre bottom end.

great to meet up at the Nats.

Cheers

Ed

rear main finally fixed.

the secret ingredient is superglue (Cyanoacrylate).  this stops the seal turning.

Cheers

Ed