FE-FC Holden Discussion Forum

Hi all

I have just had my car at the wheel alighners and we have discovered I don't have enough +castor

He has screwd the top adjuster as far back towards the rear of the car as it will go and the car has only has -2 degree castor (+3 degree is about ideal)

Another problem we found which we think is causing the problem is the whole front cross member seems to be pointing down ie....The front outrigger is compressing the bottom half of the rubber squeezing the rubber out the sides.

When we unscrewed the cross member bolts, removed the outrigger rubber and pushed the outrigger up towards the grille it gives + castor.

It seems the rubbers at the rear of the crossmember that sit on top of the crossmember are not thick enough, we put about a 1/4" spacer in those rear rubbers and got it to about -1 degrees but it is still 4 degrees off our ideal +3 degrees.

So in theory the outrigger needs to be lifted upwards towards the grill and the rear rubbers need to be thicker, sounds pretty easy to fix but it's not.

What is causing the outrigger to push down????

          Thanks Aaron

The 4 bolts that hold your crossmember in have steel sleeves/tubes around them.I seem to recall some model holden having shorter ones on the front bolts.
Maybe yours are the wrong way around or maybe they can be modified to give you more castor?? ???

Hi all

Just thought I might add that the whole front end was rebuilt.      
New crossmember mounting rubbers were fitted, the crossmember mounting bolt shaft shims are in there correct place and had the correct pre-load on the lower crossmember rubbers.

Hi all

sgo you must have just jumped in as I was adding to my first post.

As far as we can work out, those tubes/shims only place pre-load on the mounting rubbers and don't seem to affect the castor in the crossmember if the shims ar too short they take out the dampening affect and give a harder ride and send harsh shocks throuh the car.

Aaron,

Have you checked the location and setting of the upper and lower inner A arm mounting?

From my recollection there is a tool or spacer to make this setting - if the A arm isn't positioned centrally then your castor setting will definately be affected.

Cheers,

Craig

Hi all

Thanks CraigA, I understand what you mean but that does no explain why the front outrigger is is trying to push itself into the bottom of the bracket.

You can see the different gaps between the crosmember a chassis (front to rear) when you look at it from side on.

Anyway if I can fix my alignment problem by moving the wishbone towards the rear of the car to give me more adjustment, I'd rather have a squashed outrigger rubber than a car that won't steer properly

Would any one happen to have the spacer tool or know the width of this tool??????
   
                   Thanks Aaron

Aaron, the shims do bolt up tight and they are different length, front to rear (there are in fact 5 sets of shims which should be trialled to achieve the correct distance specification when the correct torque is reached).  If your bolts do not take up onto the shims without exceeding the torque spec then you probably have the wrong insulators.  Are they nolathane or rubber?
Dont use nolathane - too harsh
There is also a thickness difference between FE-EH and HD/HR insulators.
You should have 3 insulators per corner (2 round and one square)

You probably have most of this stuff right, but I thought I would go through all the things which can possibly upset the crossmember mounting

In effect you should be able to bolt up the crossmember without the outrigger attached and have it sit in absolutely the correct position.  The outrigger rubber only stops crossmember roll under braking load.

Ken

Hi all

Ken- The insulator rubbers are rubber they came from spectrum rubber and I am assuming they have given me the correct ones.

What I have done (I don't know if this will work until I take it back to the wheel aligners) is put a nolathane 3/8 spacer on top the the rear insulator rubbers, this has now pushed the outrigger up to the middle half of the bracket.
I made another shim/tube to compensate for the added nolathane spacer.

This hopefully will give me more + castor, but now I have about a 1/2" gap at the rear of crossmember and the chassis.

I also tried to unscrew the upper wishbone a move that back, but the big nut bottoms out on the shaft before it locks on the wishbone

          Thanks Aaron

Guys,

my front end suffers exactly the same problem  :-/

looks like i need to find the correct spacing tubes to sort this out?

currently my tubes are all the same length and this causes a problem as mentioned.

Ken, you mentioned 5 different set of shims available?  what sizes are these?

thanks

Ed

Everything is explained in the FE Holden workshop manual.
Page 57 and 58 ;)
ACE  8)

thanks ACE,

great however, I dont have a manual lol

could somebody perhaps send me a photocopy?

all these years and never owned a manual.. heh heh.

this explains some of the idioitc questions i post..

Cheers

Ed

I'll post a scan of the two pages tomorrow.

P.S. I tried tonight but several methods failed. I think I have a network or permissions issue.

I've got my front-end out at the moment and also looking at caster settings, and have come to the conclusion that if the rear bolt mounting is 6.4 ml longer than the front bolt mounting, when all tensioned up, the front end should be at a 2 deg. angle assuming the chassis is horizontal.

The shim lengths listed in the manual are 19.8,18.3,16.7,15.6ml. each.
???

OK. Finally got them posted here:

http://feholden.spamaddress.com/uploaded_images/Page_57_small-746987.jpg
http://feholden.spamaddress.com/uploaded_images/Page_58_small-719608.jpg


Hope that helps......

thanks SpeciFEcation, those specs are handy.

It has made me aware of how wrong my front end (HR) may be set up tho...

firstly.. I do not have the 3rd insulator located under the x member. Does the HR front need this?

secondly I have no shims in place...again have I got it all horribly wrong?

It is little wonder the front end sits in the wrong position.

any help guidance appreciated.

Cheers

Ed

Ed,

Buy a manual?

Regards

Ed

Here is a photo of the spacing tool. Actually, it is a photo of a magnificent front end with the spacing tool sitting on a piece of hessian.

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v260/fc_58-59/FC%20Resto/fe4.jpg)

Call me on 0408 200 299 at 9pm on Thursday night (when I'm next at the shed) and I'll let you know the dimension should you still require that information.

Use the HR insulators under the front -end, they're a square rubber pad about 1/2" thick.
I made up shims all the same size and the front-end aligned ok, but might try the correct method this time? ::)

Ed,
I have the FX-HR manual which doesn’t contain info to this depth.
LX torana manual for various wiring anomalies and steering stuff.
HX manual for engine bottom end specs
VN Commodore manual for wiring EFI and engine top end.

I don’t really want another manual.

Front end looks nice, I managed to space out my control arms using 2 sockets, this is on an HR front however, so your spacer tool may differ?

SGO,
Rectangular HR rubbers… will get some, also I think I will just turn down an old spacer tube into the appropriate length shims using the 6.4 mm u gave as a guide.

CER444,
Sorry for hijacking your thread, hopefully this has been beneficial in your quest to gain the correct castor as well.

Thanks

Ed

ed, my rear tubes are 95ml. front ones are 92.5ml (stock?) and shim ones are all 12.5ml.
I didn't check how it sat relative to the chassis before I pulled it out, but alignment was fine.

HI all

I have spoken to a couple of older mechanics about my castor problem and they had come across this problem of running out of adjustment.

They could recall a kit to pack up the rear of the cross member as I have done but very rarely did they come across it.

As for the spacer shims/tubes all they do is place pre- load on the rubber insulators to pull the crossmember into the chassis if it is too loose the front end will try to wonder all over the place, Too tight and when you hit a pot hole you will certainly feel it.

From my little experiance last saturday at the wheel aligner's you can take those tubes/shims out, tighten the bolts all day and for as long as your arse points to the ground IT DOES NOT ALTER THE CASTOR OF THE FRONT END!!!
.......well on my car anyway,

That spacer tool I,m stuffed if I know how that works!!!
because as I said before I cant move my top wishbones forward or back because then the nut bottoms out on the shaft before it locks on the wishbone!!!!

Any way The car is going back to the aligners on friday so I'll let you guys know how it goes with the dirty great big 3/8 shims I placed under there.

               Aaron

PS.... have a HR disc brake front end in the shed it's looking bloody good!!!

Aaron,

This is a very interesting and worthwhile topic - keep posting mate, it really does make interesting reading.

Cheers,

Craig.

I have opened a very big can of worms with a simple wheel alignment!!!!!!!

Hi Aaron,
interesting topic,
also the HR front wont necessarily solve your castor probs.  
my CRS V8 front may be way out, I dont actually know, can only assume its welded in a jig and OK.
Im going to drop my front end out nad have a good look now, the shims seem to make the most sense after looking again at the diagrams.

it's a worry to know that some cars bolt up perfect and others are somehow.. out of shape?

Cheers

Ed

This may or may not be part of the problem, but check that the steering knuckle and king pin assemblies have been installed on the correct sides. I once installed a left assembly to the right side and it played havoc until detected.
Gary

Looking on the american autos site,
they have 2 sets of insulator rubbers, 1 for FE with std front end.
1 for FE with HR front.

I reckon Ive used the std rubbers with the HR front end causing my probs.

despite the spacers only allowing different amounts of preload on the rubbers as Aaron suggests, the rubbers on the photos inf act appear to be much thicker than the stock items.

Aaron,
perhaps u can use one of these in the rear of your front end?

I will go down there on saturday to have a look and measure them up, if u like I will send thru pics of the height differences for you.

Cheers

Ed

Hi all

ZULU I did not know there is a right and left hand side for the steering knuckle? .......This could be interesting!!!

How do you tell a left hand from a right hand and visa versa

I reckon this may knock the nail on the head???

ED just hang off until I get a reply from ZULU
(and ED thanks very much for your offer)

The actual steering knuckle support assembly, (the long vertical piece that houses the centre of the kingpin) on FE & presumably all, these have left & right part numbers, don't recall if the numbers are forged onto the part though.
They look the same but I think the geometry is different.
Gary

Hi Zulu

In my spare parts catalogue the part numbers are as follows-

LH - 7408871
RH - 7408872

But the number on my knuckles are as follows-

LH - 7408871/2
RH - 7408871/2

So you would seem to think the knuckles are interchangable???

Maybe it is still worth swapping sides?

    Thanks Aaron

Hi all

Just have to place the correct "Terms" on a few thing

I was wrongly calling the "support assembly" a "steering knuckle" so-

Where your front wheel hangs off (the thing with the wheel bearings on it) is in fact a called a"steering knuckle"

The thing that joins you top & bottom wishbones is called a "support assembly"

So the part # for my support assembly is 7408871/2

I think I have confused myself and you guys enough for tonight!!!

I can't read the part numbers on my steering knuckles so I'm flying blind once again here!

       Thanks Aaron

Hi guys,
I've been watching this thread with great interest......I haven't been able to contribute anything until now. The steering knuckle supports are DEFINITELY different for LH & RH. The hole/s where the king pins go through are at an angle, which affects the castor. So maybe you do have th LH one on the wrong side & vice versa?

Cheers,

Graham

Any up-dates?

cer444, how did the wheel alignment go?

Ed, did you learn anything about the different types of mounting rubbers?

Hi Sgo,

I learnt the lower HR x-member to FE-FC mounting rubbers are about 3/4inch thick (im guessing here as I have them in the shed at the moment and not here). (part # FEK4a rare spares).

The standard ones are maybe 1/4inch. (part # fek4 rare spares)
I used the normal FE/FC mounting rubbers and they are way too thin.

My next job will be to replace the 4 lower rubber insulators (all of same thickness funny enough) and squish them up to align the xmember.  Ideally I should use some sort of spacer shim as well.  This will be made out of an old spacer tube cut down to the correct height (to be determined).

Sounds easy but I have my motor in place LOL.

hope this helps

Cheers

Ed

Hi all

Had my ute at the wheel aligners today (suppose to be last friday but I was crook).

Anyway with my dirty great big 3/8 shims at the back the outrigger in the correct position ( not squeezing the rubber out the sides!!!) It had a big fat zero deg castor which is a lot better than -2 deg castor!!

Only 2 deg better than before,+ castor would be a lot better but the difference was like driving a new car!!
you would not think that just 2 deg would change the steering so much the car returns out of corners better, it stays on the road better and pretty much where you point the steering wheel the car now goes!!!

So with the shims still in place, sitting on 0 deg castor and still no castor adjustment I think it is time to swap the support assemblies over and see what that does.

just as well I know the wheel aligner personally as I think I have worn his machine out!!!


Also tried my newly fitted nasco warmride heater on the way in this morning "bloody beautiful"
             
             Aaron

Aaron, good to see it's working out.
What did you use for the spacers?

Ed, my set up used a stock/thin rubber on the front bolt and a thick/rare spares one on the rear bolt, but as it's all apart at the moment I can't really say how it all sat?

Hi all

sgo- I stole my Noltec crossmember bushes out of my drag car (LC Torana), Ground down the outer diameter and enlarged the centres slightly to fit the inne tube.

This is just a temporary fix as I have a gap between the chassis rail and the lower half of the insulating rubber.

I need to make a spacer that sits on the crossmember for the insulating rubber to then sit on to get full contact on the chassis.

I will post some pics to give you guys a better idea.

              Aaron